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After not having touched 40k in ages I've had a relapse with the new Skitarii models. As we were on 4th edition the last time I played the game I'm way out of date with how 40k is now. I'd just like to ask what the general consensus is on unit sizes and if anything has changed with the reasons to go for a units size or if its still just preference on what you want to achieve for how I put my Vanguard and Rangers together.

As I look at it currently

Small Units

Pros
Net increase in number of special weapons available
More units mean can shoot at a greater number of different targets
More units mean more units for opponent to have to split fire between

Cons
Less durable
Costs slightly more points for the same number of models

Big Units

Pros
Stick around longer on objectives
More ablative bodies for the special weapons
Greater benefit for any effects that target an entire unit
Use up less force organisation slots

Cons
Templates are more of a problem as more models having to keep squad coherency
Can't split fire if facing a lot of targets

This title.... Phrasing!!!

We are playing phrasing right?

Welcome to Dakka mate! I personally would be running them in their bigger squads, though I can see the appeal of the smaller ones.

Phrasing aside..

Things to consider:
Do you need them to be a certain size to fit in transports (Does Mechanicus have transports? I donno)
Do you need a certain sized unit to unlock an extra heavy, and will that heavy be points-efficient for your local meta?

Just a few things you have to decide for yourself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And welcome to dakka, where the rules are made up and points don't matter.

Rangers, I would run in bigger units, while I would play vanguard in smaller units.

Rangers have good guns and while the Arc rifles are very good, I don't think you'll need 10 in order to run a decent list. So more models reduces the overall cost per model (because the sergeant is +10 points).

I would run vanguard in smaller units so I could run them towards more targets. Normally I prefer numbers in CC units but I plan on running infiltrator units along some of the vanguard units, so they make up for the reduced numbers.

 Pyeatt wrote:
Phrasing aside..

Lol give him a break, be supportive, it is his first post.

 Pyeatt wrote:
This title.... Phrasing!!!

We are playing phrasing right?

I'll be honest I had to look up what you were insinuating there, seems I'm not up to speed on my euphemisms.

I'm sorry, I watch too much Archer. just skip to my second post for content relevant to your question

In any case going back to the question at hand, with 3 boxes I can go for 3 squads of 10 (1 Rangers, 2 Vanguard), 5 squads of 6 (2 Rangers, 3 Vanguard) or some permeation in between, 1 squad of 9 Rangers and 3 squads of 7 Vanguard is an idea for a balance between the two.

Volkmair wrote:
In any case going back to the question at hand, with 3 boxes I can go for 3 squads of 10 (1 Rangers, 2 Vanguard), 5 squads of 6 (2 Rangers, 3 Vanguard) or some permeation in between, 1 squad of 9 Rangers and 3 squads of 7 Vanguard is an idea for a balance between the two.

I personally would do the 3 squads of ten. Nice amount of special weapons with nice padding.

Volkmair wrote:
After not having touched 40k in ages I've had a relapse with the new Skitarii models. As we were on 4th edition the last time I played the game I'm way out of date with how 40k is now. I'd just like to ask what the general consensus is on unit sizes and if anything has changed with the reasons to go for a units size or if its still just preference on what you want to achieve for how I put my Vanguard and Rangers together.

As I look at it currently

Small Units

Pros
Net increase in number of special weapons available
More units mean can shoot at a greater number of different targets
More units mean more units for opponent to have to split fire between

Cons
Less durable
Costs slightly more points for the same number of models

Big Units

Pros
Stick around longer on objectives
More ablative bodies for the special weapons
Greater benefit for any effects that target an entire unit
Use up less force organisation slots

Cons
Templates are more of a problem as more models having to keep squad coherency
Can't split fire if facing a lot of targets

You've got most of them right, but there's a couple things you missed or got wrong.

Small units are not less durable. They are equally durable as larger units, model per model. They simply run out of models faster. If you have two 5 man squads tackling the same jobs as a single 10 man squad, the two squads are just as durable as the one large squad. I.e. it takes the same amount of firepower to completely eliminate either setup.

Smaller units also do not cost more points. The excess points are not penalties, they are points you are willingly paying to get more special weapons. If you want to save points, you can simply not purchase the extra special wargear, making the points the exact same as a larger squad.

One downside of MSU over maximum sized squads is increased points spent on transports. However, this does potentially double or even triple/quadruple the amount of Dedicated Transports you are able to purchase.

Larger units do not stick around any longer on objectives than the same amount of smaller squads. Ten Objective Secured models lock down an objective no better than two 5 man Objective Secured squads.

Two more benefits of smaller squads is that any firepower that would have killed 6 models, will only wipe out 5, whereas it will deal greater than 5 models' worth of damage to a large squad. You just minimized potential damage if they overkilled your squad in one shot. Another benefit is stragglers. If your 5 man squad gets whittled down to 1 or 2, you can force Overwatch or charge multiple squads with that remnant and let a larger/undamaged squad get in for free.

Generally, if your force organization has the free slots, smaller squads are better in pretty much every way. They also give more sergeants and characters for you to chump block with. The downside is they do come with point taxes if the sergeant costs more than a normal member or you choose to make use of their increased wargear and transport slots, and they will also give up Kill Points much faster in missions where that is relevant.

I have a friend who occasionally runs full twenty man squads of Chaos Marines. They simply sit where he wants them to and can wander (slowly) across the field quite happily. Even large numbers lost don't tend to slow him down.

But of course, they are made to be slow and solid troops like that. I'm not too familiar with the new Skitarii, so you will have to think about the intended purpose of your units.

As a nid player I would rather take 2 groups of 15 hormagants then 1 of 30. Not only can I send them off in different directions if need be but I can use them to shield other more valuable units from different directions.

A couple units slightly bigger then stock model size suits my play style.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

Larger units do not stick around any longer on objectives than the same amount of smaller squads. Ten Objective Secured models lock down an objective no better than two 5 man Objective Secured squads.

Wouldn't panic from shooting be more of an issue for small squads as they have to loose less models before they have to start taking tests and possibly falling back form the objective or does it balance out as there are more squads so a failed test will still leave some other squads there rather than the whole unit going?

Volkmair wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

Larger units do not stick around any longer on objectives than the same amount of smaller squads. Ten Objective Secured models lock down an objective no better than two 5 man Objective Secured squads.

Wouldn't panic from shooting be more of an issue for small squads as they have to loose less models before they have to start taking tests and possibly falling back form the objective or does it balance out as there are more squads so a failed test will still leave some other squads there rather than the whole unit going?

Generally speaking -- not specific to any faction:

The larger blob has the advantage of needing more wounds to be taken before it has to make a morale check. Also, you can allocate the wounds to the cheaper, basic weapon units. With a 5 man unit if you take 2 wounds, you need to make a morale check; at 3 wounds, will probably also lose a premium model. Neither occurs with 2 wounds on a 10 man unit, and you can eat a lot of damage before losing a special. On the other hand, if you take two 5 man units, you can be in two places.

One compromise is to do neither, and have 6 man units, and if you have enough points, put an extra grunt into one of them. Depending on how many special weapons you have, and how many wounds you want to absorb, of course -- and what type of enemy you plan on fighting.

Giant unitz be betta fo' krumpin dose humies.

as a Dark Eldar player MSU is the way I play to get more units on the table, but it ends up costing me in transports. It's really hard to balance it sometimes in smaller point games. this thread is quite interesting for me! A question I've never thought to ask.