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So let's say I have a Furioso Dreadnought with a Frag Cannon and a Heavy Flamer.

Page 30 tells us to select a weapon type by name and fire. However, page 173 Multiple Templates says:

If a unit is firing more than one shot with the Template type, resolve each shot, one at a time, as described above, determining and recording how many hits are scored by each template. Once the number of hits from all templates has been determined, roll to Wound as normal."

Notes:

-It says shots, not weapons, meaning this rule encompasses shots, not weapons ( with the Template type. )
-It clearly states to first add up the hits from all Template shots and then proceed to wound.

Basically I see it as a special situation which also applies to Blast ( as noted in the Blast weapons section ) and is there so you won't make your second weapon useless because of the first killing the potential targets from under the second, as the hit area is vastly smaller on a Blast or a Template weapon than say, an assault cannon firing 24" in pretty much any direction.

It'd be pretty dumb to be able to equip multiple weapons only to have one be useless as the other one kills your targets. I see this rule as being included as means to prevent that very scenario, as other weapons don't suffer from it either ( in the same scale anyway, as the hit area is, again, much larger with a non-template/blast weapon. )

Is there an actual, final, factual solution to this, and please do provide the source.

Personally, I'm unsure if the rules were written specifically to get around firing one weapon type at a time, or whether they were written without considering how they actually interacted with the basic shooting rules (i.e. the writer didn't think that a unit would have more than one weapon type with the Template or Blast special rules).

However, RAW, Templates is clearly the more advanced rule in this case, and so should take precedence.

How is this different from shooting multiple weapons where only one is a template/blast? Yea the 2nd weapon might be hitting less units depending on how models are removed, but thats the risk you take.

Even if you are shooting multiple weapons without any template/blast weapon shooting the first weapon might put the remaining models out of range/los so I dont see the difference really.

I kinda do, as I mentioned, the firing area of a non template/blast weapon is vastly larger. Next to that, they lack rulings such as the one on page 173.

If the rule were to be ignored, it would do nothing in its current form, so why would it be there, and worded as such. It's worded in such a way that it's hard to think of it as a typo.

 RunicFIN wrote:
If the rule were to be ignored, it would do nothing in its current form, so why would it be there, and worded as such.

In it's current form, it's (imo) intended for use when a unit if firing, say, 5 Flamers (or 4 Frag Missiles - as it is worded the same as Multiple Blasts), instructing you to do all the faffing about with templates or blast markers first, before rolling a wound pool where all stats (strength, AP, direction of casualty removal) are the same.

However, I have checked the Multiple Barrage rules, and they are worded the same, and for a while (in a previous edition) using a Griffon to increase the accuracy of Basilisks in the same unit was a widely-accepted and popular tactic, so this leans me more towards multiple weapons types fired simultaneously as the "intended effect" than my first post.

Given that you resolve different weapons separately, the shots referred to in the template rule are all from the same type of weapon.

I'm not sure that RAW that's the case, because the rule merely says for you resolve hits from all Template type shots simultaneously. Different Template weapons all fire Template shots, which according to the rule, have their hits and wounds resolved simultaneously if they are coming from the same unit as described on page 173.

Currently apparently there is no way to distinguish which rule overrides which I guess. I sent GW an email about it but we'll see if that goes anywhere. I'm still fairly certain this rule is in place to prevent another Template weapon rendering the other one useless as the hit "area" is so small, but there apparently is no way to tell.

Quanar,
The Rules are written 'in a vacuum,' part of the issue with a lot of Rules, which means that they do not take into account all situations but only the most basic to explain the Rule.
In this case it One Unit consisting if one Model, firing a single undefined shot at one Unit consisting of One Model.

 RunicFIN wrote:
the rule merely says for you resolve hits from all Template type shots simultaneously.

All shots yes, from 1 weapon. If you shoot multiple weapons of type x with multiple shots, you still resolve all shots from that 1 weapon simultaneously you don't pile all your assault/heavy/rapid fire shots from different weapons into one pile (it never says you resolve shots from different weapons, just all shots from 1 template, e.g if you have a 'template 2' weapon, but I'm not sure those even exist). So different weapon types are just resolved later, as usual. It clearly says shots and not weapons.

 RunicFIN wrote:
I'm not sure that RAW that's the case, because the rule merely says for you resolve hits from all Template type shots simultaneously. Different Template weapons all fire Template shots, which according to the rule, have their hits and wounds resolved simultaneously if they are coming from the same unit as described on page 173.

That's only the case if you take that rule in isolation, though. When you put it in the context of the shooting process, you're resolving different weapons separately... because that's how shooting works in this edition.

The template weapons describe what to do instead of rolling to hit. No permission to go beyond the scope of 'instead of rolling to hit' is given. You must still abide by the normal shooting rules. That means different template weapons must be resolved on at a time.

MoD_Legion wrote:
All shots yes, from 1 weapon. If you shoot multiple weapons of type x with multiple shots, you still resolve all shots from that 1 weapon simultaneously you don't pile all your assault/heavy/rapid fire shots from different weapons into one pile (it never says you resolve shots from different weapons, just all shots from 1 template, e.g if you have a 'template 2' weapon, but I'm not sure those even exist). So different weapon types are just resolved later, as usual. It clearly says shots and not weapons.

The Frag Cannon on the Furioso, which was my example, is Template 2.

You resolve each weapon one at a time, and you pick with what to fire with first.
Say you did the flamer first:
- Count how many you have under your template.
- Roll to wound.
- Opponent takes cover saves, and discards dead bodies.

Then do the same steps for other weapons.

"first add up the hits from all Template shots and then proceed to wound."

I believe this is intended for barrage templates or if you have a unit that has multiple template weapons. Such as a bunch of orks with flamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You resolve each weapon one at a time, and you pick with what to fire with first.
Say you did the flamer first:
- Count how many you have under your template.
- Roll to wound.
- Opponent takes cover saves, and discards dead bodies.

Then do the same steps for other weapons.

"first add up the hits from all Template shots and then proceed to wound."

I believe this is intended for barrage templates or if you have a unit that has multiple template weapons. Such as a bunch of orks with flamers.

Snoopdeville3 wrote:
You resolve each weapon one at a time, and you pick with what to fire with first.
Say you did the flamer first:
- Count how many you have under your template.
- Roll to wound.
- Opponent takes cover saves, and discards dead bodies.

Then do the same steps for other weapons.

"first add up the hits from all Template shots and then proceed to wound."

I believe this is intended for barrage templates or if you have a unit that has multiple template weapons. Such as a bunch of orks with flamers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You resolve each weapon one at a time, and you pick with what to fire with first.
Say you did the flamer first:
- Count how many you have under your template.
- Roll to wound.
- Opponent takes cover saves, and discards dead bodies.

Then do the same steps for other weapons.

"first add up the hits from all Template shots and then proceed to wound."

I believe this is intended for barrage templates or if you have a unit that has multiple template weapons. Such as a bunch of orks with flamers.

I'm curious...how are you taking cover saves against weapons with ignore cover (all template weapons if I recall correctly...).

I always took the rule to mean all template type weapons in that unit get resolved together, even if they are different weapons....but there are some valid arguments in this thread that have me thinking maybe that is not the case

sm3g wrote:

I'm curious...how are you taking cover saves against weapons with ignore cover (all template weapons if I recall correctly...).

Going by the reference to 'barrage templates' I suspect that he's confusing Templates and Blast Markers.

 DJGietzen wrote:
The template weapons describe what to do instead of rolling to hit. No permission to go beyond the scope of 'instead of rolling to hit' is given. You must still abide by the normal shooting rules. That means different template weapons must be resolved on at a time.

This. It'd be the exact same as if I have a flamer and a melta, or I have a missile and a plas cannon in the same squad. Just because it's two models that have weapons with blast doesn't mean I can ignore the fact that weapons go one at a time, I'd need to do either plasma or missile, then the other one after I've resolved it.

Just because it doesn't maximize the damage of the model doesn't mean it's the wrong way to do it. The same way as with other weapons, you need to consider what order you shoot them in.