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'k, so there is a rule somewhere that states that skimmers which end their move over area terrain are "flying high".  They may then draw LOS to *any* place on the board, but LOS may also be drawn to them from anywhere on the board.

I believe this rule is from Cityfight...I couldn't find it in my BGB.  The only BGB rule I found is: skimmers ending their move over area terrain are considered to be the same height as the terrain.

Which would mean that size 3 area terrain would still block LOS for skimmers hovering over other area terrain, right?

I was in a (non-cityfight) game on Tuesday where my opponent picked off my Basilisk, which was nicely tucked behind a size 3 forest, by "flying high" with his Hammerhead that was 5 feet away in the opposite corner.  Was I raped?

Sounds like city fight...either that or fifth edition WHFB.

No such rule. Skimmers only ignore the piece of terrain they are over for LOS purposes and since there is no greater height category than size 3 (without house rules), all other size 3 terrain still blocks LOS to and from the skimmer.

I think this misconception is left over from the V3 TVR

it's in the size/area terrain section of the core rulebook

size 3 terrain with a size 3 vehicle sitting on it means the vehicle is sitting at size 6 and pretty much everybody and thier brother can see it. the problem here is that your basilisk was up against a piece of size 3  LOS blocking area terrain. as such it cannot be seen, even by a skimmer sitting at size 6.  if it were sitting behind and away from the terrain it would be seen but not right up against it..

You lost me as soon as you said "Size 6".

You need to go back and reread the rule book, and this time pay attention.

To be fair, there was that nice little Pete haines Article in WD about sizes greater than 3.

To be fair, there was that nice little Pete haines Article in WD about sizes greater than 3.

To which he said you could use house rules to make a terrain size greater than 3. That's quite a different concept than what you are implying.

UGH. I had a similar occurence in the first game of the Team Tourney at Adepticon. My opponent argued that a size 2 marine standing on a size 3 building counted as size 5 and could see over another size 3 building and shoot my basilisk behind it. I repeatedly showed him the "There are 3 size classifications and these are the only ones", but to no avail.

Even if there are more than 3 size categories, you ignore them.

Pg 7 "The following three categories are the only ones that are important in the Shooting phase..."

Make whatever size categories you want, but if they are not 1, 2, or 3, then they don't do a damn thing.

here is where it is important- a vehicle is size 3. if it is sitting on top of a size 3 piece of terrain they stack. this does not help the vehicle see enemy units right up behind another size 3 piece of area terrain. what it does do is allow the vehicle to see targets on the other side of the terrain it is hovering over. the down side is because it is now stacked to a size 6 everybody on the board not right up behind a blocking LOS piece of terrain can see it because it is hovering high out in the open for everybody to see.

mughi3, you seem a little confused.

For starters, there is no such thing as Size 6. There are only 3 Size categories. The only way to get more is through House rules.

Secondly, if there were a Size 6, it would allow a skimmer hovering over Size 3 terrain to see a vehicle on the other side of other Size 3 terrain. So long as either the Firer or the Target is taller than the intervening terrain, the Firer has LOS. Page 7 of the rulebook.

Page 20: "All vehicles, vehicle wrecks, monsterous creatures and artillery, friend or foe block line of sight.  A light of sight can still be drawn over or past such models, but not through them.  Use a model's eye view to determine if you can see past them.  Skimmer vehicles only block line of sight if immobilised or wrecked."

According to this entry, if you can draw line of sight from the model's eye view, you can shoot over vehicles and monsterous creatures. If I place a model on a stack of books, and I can draw line of sight over a monsterous creature based on the model's eye view, I can see past it.

Page 21: "A model's line of sight will be considerably improved by being on an elevated position, such as a cliff or building, so it can count the height of the terrain piece it stands on for line of sight in regards to other Area Terrain."

Size categories definitely don't stack, but a model on a size 3 terrain piece can count the height of the terrain piece for line of sight with regards to other Area Terrain.  Note this doesn't say all line of sight applications; the model's eye view determines whether you can see over vehicles or monsterous creatures.  Page 21 shows that if a size 2 model is standing on a size 3 terrain piece, it can see over other size 2 terrain pieces.

Say a monsterous creature is 2 inches tall.  It is a size 3 model.  Say a building on the board is 10 inches tall.  It is a size 3 model as well.  There are only 3 size categories, but a building can still be 10 inches tall.  A size 2 model is placed on top of the building, and is trying to draw line of sight over the 2 inch tall, size 3 monsterous creature.  The player uses the model's eye view to see if they can see over it, and he can.

Page 7: "These following three categories are the only ones that are important in the Shooting phase when determining line of sight and target priority."

This is still true.  The model on top of the 10" tall building still has to take a target priority test to shoot past the size 3 monsterous creature.  Size 1, 2, and 3 models that can't draw line of sight over or past the size 3 model can't shoot models behind it.  If there is a size 2 model that completely covers another size 2 model, and the model on top of the building wants to shoot at the covered model, he can because size 2 models do not block line of sight for other size 2 models.

I agree that there are only 3 size categories, but when determining line of sight, you do so from "the model's eye view".  Size 3 models do block line of sight, but if you can see over them from a model's eye view, you can shoot past them.

Tacit has it right. Its all a bit complicated, but the rules are suprisingly clear.


PS I've been reading through the Hordes: Primal. If you are tired of GW LOS, etc..., arguments, I urge you to check it out!

Tacit
well said

i agree totally, my wording was wrong.

most skimmers with the exception of cetain upgrades cannot even enter area terrain. they can hop over it to get past, or choose to hover over it. if they do hover over it they are a vehicle sitting on a size 3 piece of terrain.  they are skimmers and do not block LOS but they are also counted as size 3 vehicles and easily picked out by pretty much anybody that can see them from the models eye view LOS. i think what i was trying and failing to convey is the fact that hovering over terrain tends to make them targets for more return fire than skimming around terrain and using the terrain to limit the number of units that can see (LOS) and return fire to them.

 

 

Tacit
well said

i agree totally, my wording was wrong.

most skimmers with the exception of cetain upgrades cannot even enter area terrain. they can hop over it to get past, or choose to hover over it. if they do hover over it they are a vehicle sitting on a size 3 piece of terrain.  they are skimmers and do not block LOS but they are also counted as size 3 vehicles and easily picked out by pretty much anybody that can see them from the models eye view LOS. i think what i was trying and failing to convey is the fact that hovering over terrain tends to make them targets for more return fire than skimming around terrain and using the terrain to limit the number of units that can see (LOS) and return fire to them.

 

 

The only error in Tacit's example is that a size 3 models is not the same as size 3 area terrain. Or to be more specific, area terrain doesn't block LOS like models.

I agree Mauleed.  My example is correct with respect to that specific case, but the original case shown by the OP uses area terrain.  When trying to see over area terrain, the only thing that matters is the size of the models in question and the size of the area terrain, and the "model's eye view" does not apply here.  The only condition for seeing over area terrain is: "Models that are classed as taller than the area terrain can see and be seen over it".

The Basilisk in the OP case was size 3, and was hiding behind size 3 terrain.  The HammerHead was a size 3 vehicle flying high over a size 3 terrain piece.  A model can count the height of the terrain piece it stands on for line of sight in regards to other area terrain.  In this case, it doesn't help the HammerHead to use the terrain piece height because it is already classed as size 3.  So in response to the OP's question: yes you got raped.

While it may seem awkward, the current rules allow models to see over other size 3 models if they can see over by the "model's eye view".  Area terrain is totally different, where only "Models that are classed as taller than the Area Terrain can see and be seen over it."  This means that no models can ever see over a size 3 area terrain piece, regardless of the fact that they may be standing on or "flying high" over a 10" tall size 3 terrain piece, because there is no class taller than size 3.  While the terrain may be physically taller than the rest of the size 3 models and terrain on the table, the BGB states that you don't use actual LOS for area terrain, and instead you refer to the size class.

So the net result is that size 3 models can be seen over, but you can't see over size 3 area terrain.

Spot on. Thanks.

Eeek, sorry Neil, I didn't read this thread until now but ya, I guess that is partially left over from Cityfight and partially from playing the Triafata boyz with whom we have used that rule a lot. That is really too bad because I wish that was a clean trouncing.

Yeah, I really should completely stop believing your "dood, I'm 130% sure I'm right about that rule" ...

BTW Dave, it's a bit lame to keep cheesing off here in YMTC and Tactics about trouncing me and how few units you lost. If you want to write up something over in Battle Reports, I'll be happy to describe your pregame nonsense that resulted in a sudden change of mission which nerfed my list...