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Hi all,

I am sure this is an obvious question to many of you, but I couldn't find the answer via a search...

A lot of Ork players seem to take Gunwagons and Big Trakks from the Forgeworld "Dread Mob" army list in standard Codex: Orks lists and simply transplant the rules, weapons and points values for those units from the Dread Mob pdf (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/Dred_Mob.pdf). The main reason for this is that these units remedy the various deficiencies of the looted wagon, which is the terrible descendant of the once popular looted tank.

I don't own any of the Imperial Armour books, so perhaps I am missing something... but from reading the Dread Mob pdf, when it says that you are to use it "in conjunction with Codex: Orks", it sounds a lot more like it was intended as an supplementary army list. Can you really just pick and choose Dread Mob units to include in a standard Orks army?

 Krusha wrote:
Hi all,

I am sure this is an obvious question to many of you, but I couldn't find the answer via a search...

A lot of Ork players seem to take Gunwagons and Big Trakks from the Forgeworld "Dread Mob" army list in standard Codex: Orks lists and simply transplant the rules, weapons and points values for those units from the Dread Mob pdf (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/d/Dred_Mob.pdf). The main reason for this is that these units remedy the various deficiencies of the looted wagon, which is the terrible descendant of the once popular looted tank.

I don't own any of the Imperial Armour books, so perhaps I am missing something... but from reading the Dread Mob pdf, when it says that you are to use it "in conjunction with Codex: Orks", it sounds a lot more like it was intended as an supplementary army list. Can you really just pick and choose Dread Mob units to include in a standard Orks army?

No, specific units in the Dred Mob army list specify that they can be taken in a 'standard' Orky army as a 'X' choice (Fast Attack, Elites, etc).

This is how a whole lot of the Imperial Armour army lists work...they are a full self-enclosed army list, but some of their unit entries also double as the unit entries for the unit to be taken in 'standard' 40k codex armies. This is a way that Forgeworld can save having to print the unit entry twice in the same book.

 yakface wrote:
No, specific units in the Dred Mob army list specify that they can be taken in a 'standard' Orky army as a 'X' choice (Fast Attack, Elites, etc).

This is how a whole lot of the Imperial Armour army lists work...they are a full self-enclosed army list, but some of their unit entries also double as the unit entries for the unit to be taken in 'standard' 40k codex armies. This is a way that Forgeworld can save having to print the unit entry twice in the same book.

This occurred to me as I was reading through the list, but gunwagons and big trakks are not subject to such a provision, yet people seem to take them anyway...

Although in the case of those two particular units, they were not updated in the Dred Mob army list in a way that technically allows them to be taken in a standard Ork army.

That means per the strict RAW you have to pull from the OLD IA8 unit entries for those vehicles, and would be stuck playing with all kinds of improper old rules and such if you did so. Frankly Forgeworld has done a crap job of updating stuff for 7th edition, so people have gone out of there way to figure out fixes to make sure you can still play with your Forgeworld models that you purchased.

For example, in the Adepticon & ITC FAQs (which I helped write), to make the Big Trakk 'work' for tournament play we have to say:

1-3 Big Trakks can be taken as a single Heavy Support choice in an Orks detachment. Use the unit entry for the Big Trakk found in the Ork Dread Mob Army List Update PDF.

Cheers for the tip.

Just one more Q, if I may:

The 4Chan Ork tactics guide (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Orks%287E%29) claims that a Big Mek can take a Mekboy Junka as a dedicated transport, thus freeing up an elite slot.

This is certainly true for a Big Mek taken in the dread mob army list, but is it also true for Codex: Orks lists? It's not clear from the way it's written, and the Ork codex makes no mention of this option in its own entry for the Big Mek.

 Krusha wrote:
Cheers for the tip.

Just one more Q, if I may:

The 4Chan Ork tactics guide (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Orks%287E%29) claims that a Big Mek can take a Mekboy Junka as a dedicated transport, thus freeing up an elite slot.

This is certainly true for a Big Mek taken in the dread mob army list, but is it also true for Codex: Orks lists? It's not clear from the way it's written, and the Ork codex makes no mention of this option in its own entry for the Big Mek.

Yes, the 'core' unit entry in IA8 for the Mekboy Junka allows it to be taken either as an Elites choice or as a dedicated transport for a Big Mek in a standard Ork army.

No codex references Imperial Armour units, as Imperial Armour is an expansion. So its the Imperial Armour books that tell you how you can take the Imperial Armour unit in the normal codex.

The problem is, when Forgeworld doesn't update their unit entries after the main studio puts out a new version of the codex, then all of a sudden you have strange or unplayable issues that you need to be cognizant of.

So really, the question of whether or not you can take dread mob units that do not specifically state (in the updated Dread Mob list) that they can be taken in a standard Codex: Orks list is a grey area that ultimately depends on your opponent's consent to use cherry-picked out-of-date rules or the rules of whatever tournament you are participating in?

Yes, but given your opponent has full veto control over your entire army (page 161, frmo memory) *regardless* of source anyway, be reasonable and explain what things are, most people from experience have no issues.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, but given your opponent has full veto control over your entire army (page 161, frmo memory) *regardless* of source anyway, be reasonable and explain what things are, most people from experience have no issues.

Hmm.

To be honest, it seems like GW has washed its hands of trying to balance the game or write the rules properly via the excuse of just telling us to homerule anything we don't like.

Its not even that. theyre saying they expect people playing the game to work out between them what will be most fun for that game. It simply codifies that you have always been able to say no to anything.

 Krusha wrote:
So really, the question of whether or not you can take dread mob units that do not specifically state (in the updated Dread Mob list) that they can be taken in a standard Codex: Orks list is a grey area that ultimately depends on your opponent's consent to use cherry-picked out-of-date rules or the rules of whatever tournament you are participating in?

That's not really the question at all. Imperial Armour 8 has those units, and says you can take those units in a standard Ork army, so they can be taken. The issue is that in many cases, those rules are ridiculously out of date and in some cases are more or less unplayable (and if they are playable, they are often quite different from what is in the current codex).

So at that point you have a choice: Do you stick to trying to play with the stuff that makes no sense at all, or do you take the logical leap and use the updated rules for the unit in the Dread Mob army list as a 'house rule' of sorts to make it work?

Obviously in a perfect world, Forgeworld would have put in the Dread Mob army list that the updated 'Big Trakk' entry can also be used to replace the standard entry for it in IA8, like they did with some other stuff in the Dread Mob list...but for whatever reason, Forgeworld didn't.

Of course, even the stuff that is 'updated' in the Dread Mob army list still isn't completely updated (it is all pre-current codex), so stuff like 'armour plates' still exists that doesn't refer to anything in the current Ork codex (which is now 'extra armor') and Orks are missing the new special rules from the current codex (like 'ere we go').

Why exactly Forgeworld hasn't updated their stuff for 7th edition is anybody's guess. I've heard whispers that they've had 7th edition conversion PDFs done for months now, but if that's the case there must be some strange reason we can't fathom that they haven't been allowed to release them.

If you do email FW and ask them about this question, I can almost guarantee (based on my past experiences with them), that they'll just say things like: 'yeah, just use the updated Big Trakk rules from the Dread Mob army list' and 'yeah, just treat those units as having the 'ere we go' special rule, etc, etc, etc. But trying to convince other players of the validity of email responses is such a pain in the ass that its almost not worth the effort (unless you actually get your opponent to send the email).

It is most certainly a baffling/annoying situation, but the question isn't 'can an Ork player take these units in their standard army?', the question is: 'how exactly should we play those units in the army, given that the rules are a mess?'

And the answer (for now) is always going to be:

- Don't play with the unit.
- Play with the unit, but try to play it RAW as best you can, even if that leads to some strange/absurd situations.
- Play with the unit, but house rule it to make it work the way it does in the current codex (and use things like the Dread Mob update or a tournament FAQ to help you out along this path).
- Email FW about the issue and agree to abide by whatever the guy who answers says.

 yakface wrote:

 Krusha wrote:
So really, the question of whether or not you can take dread mob units that do not specifically state (in the updated Dread Mob list) that they can be taken in a standard Codex: Orks list is a grey area that ultimately depends on your opponent's consent to use cherry-picked out-of-date rules or the rules of whatever tournament you are participating in?

That's not really the question at all. Imperial Armour 8 has those units, and says you can take those units in a standard Ork army, so they can be taken. The issue is that in many cases, those rules are ridiculously out of date and in some cases are more or less unplayable (and if they are playable, they are often quite different from what is in the current codex).

So at that point you have a choice: Do you stick to trying to play with the stuff that makes no sense at all, or do you take the logical leap and use the updated rules for the unit in the Dread Mob army list as a 'house rule' of sorts to make it work?

Obviously in a perfect world, Forgeworld would have put in the Dread Mob army list that the updated 'Big Trakk' entry can also be used to replace the standard entry for it in IA8, like they did with some other stuff in the Dread Mob list...but for whatever reason, Forgeworld didn't.

Of course, even the stuff that is 'updated' in the Dread Mob army list still isn't completely updated (it is all pre-current codex), so stuff like 'armour plates' still exists that doesn't refer to anything in the current Ork codex (which is now 'extra armor') and Orks are missing the new special rules from the current codex (like 'ere we go').

Why exactly Forgeworld hasn't updated their stuff for 7th edition is anybody's guess. I've heard whispers that they've had 7th edition conversion PDFs done for months now, but if that's the case there must be some strange reason we can't fathom that they haven't been allowed to release them.

If you do email FW and ask them about this question, I can almost guarantee (based on my past experiences with them), that they'll just say things like: 'yeah, just use the updated Big Trakk rules from the Dread Mob army list' and 'yeah, just treat those units as having the 'ere we go' special rule, etc, etc, etc. But trying to convince other players of the validity of email responses is such a pain in the ass that its almost not worth the effort (unless you actually get your opponent to send the email).

It is most certainly a baffling/annoying situation, but the question isn't 'can an Ork player take these units in their standard army?', the question is: 'how exactly should we play those units in the army, given that the rules are a mess?'

And the answer (for now) is always going to be:

- Don't play with the unit.
- Play with the unit, but try to play it RAW as best you can, even if that leads to some strange/absurd situations.
- Play with the unit, but house rule it to make it work the way it does in the current codex (and use things like the Dread Mob update or a tournament FAQ to help you out along this path).
- Email FW about the issue and agree to abide by whatever the guy who answers says.

But here is what I don't get:

1) Imperial Armour 8 sets out rules for using a special "Dread Mob" Ork army with unique vehicles.
2) The IA8 list stipulates that vehicle X can be taken in a standard Codex: Orks army, not just the Dread Mob list.
3) Forgeworld then releases an update to the Dread Mob List that clearly states that it supercedes the IA8 list.
4) In the updated Dread Mob rules, the provision permitting players to take vehicle X in standard Codex: Orks armies has clearly been removed.
5) Therefore, I cannot use vehicle X in a standard Codex: Orks army list anymore unless (1) my opponent allows me to use out-of-date rules from IA8, or (2) I am playing under tournament rules that allow me to do so.
6) This is underlined by the fact that vehicles Y and Z are still given the seal of approval for Codex: Orks lists under the updated rules, even though vehicle X is not.

The way I see it, RAW, the position is quite clear. The old rules have been superceded, therefore you can't cherry pick the old rules to get around the bits of the new rules that you don't like. I can't just choose to use the old version of the deff rolla rules just because I don't like the new rules. Perhaps it was an oversight... Who knows? But the RAW are what they are.

I mean, sure, I get it, at the end of the day, your opponent's consent trumps all and I can always choose not to use the unit. I was just wondering if there was a RAW argument I was missing, but it seems it is just about house rules. Which is fine, I suppose.

 Krusha wrote:

But here is what I don't get:

1) Imperial Armour 8 sets out rules for using a special "Dread Mob" Ork army with unique vehicles.
2) The IA8 list stipulates that vehicle X can be taken in a standard Codex: Orks army, not just the Dread Mob list.
3) Forgeworld then releases an update to the Dread Mob List that clearly states that it supercedes the IA8 list.
4) In the updated Dread Mob rules, the provision permitting players to take vehicle X in standard Codex: Orks armies has clearly been removed.
5) Therefore, I cannot use vehicle X in a standard Codex: Orks army list anymore unless (1) my opponent allows me to use out-of-date rules from IA8, or (2) I am playing under tournament rules that allow me to do so.
6) This is underlined by the fact that vehicles Y and Z are still given the seal of approval for Codex: Orks lists under the updated rules, even though vehicle X is not.

The way I see it, RAW, the position is quite clear. The old rules have been superceded, therefore you can't cherry pick the old rules to get around the bits of the new rules that you don't like. I can't just choose to use the old version of the deff rolla rules just because I don't like the new rules. Perhaps it was an oversight... Who knows? But the RAW are what they are.

I mean, sure, I get it, at the end of the day, your opponent's consent trumps all and I can always choose not to use the unit. I was just wondering if there was a RAW argument I was missing, but it seems it is just about house rules. Which is fine, I suppose.

The part you're missing is that in IA8, they do exactly what I was talking about them not doing, they have regular unit entries and then they have the Dread Mob army list. So a unit entry exists twice in IA8 for the Big Trakk, for example...the main one on page 156 and then another one in the Dread Mob army list on page 139.

So the 'Dread Mob army list update PDF' updated the Big Trakk unit entry for the Dread Mob army list, but not the main unit entry. Yes, in some cases FW went out of their way and make the new rules for some units in the Dread Mob update also apply to the general versions, just not in that case.

4) In the updated Dread Mob rules, the provision permitting players to take vehicle X in standard Codex: Orks armies has clearly been removed.

I think you're missing something very important here: detachments must be from the same faction, not from the same army list. The Dread Mob army list is from the Orks faction, as is the Codex: Orks army list. There is no such thing as a "Codex: Orks army" anymore, only a detachment from the Orks faction. So you are free to throw random single units from the Dread Mob list into any detachment from the Orks faction, including one where most of the units are taken from the Codex: Orks army list.

(Yes this is a really stupid rule, but that's how it works in 7th. Welcome to the edition where the FOC is unbound in all but name.)

 Peregrine wrote:

4) In the updated Dread Mob rules, the provision permitting players to take vehicle X in standard Codex: Orks armies has clearly been removed.

I think you're missing something very important here: detachments must be from the same faction, not from the same army list. The Dread Mob army list is from the Orks faction, as is the Codex: Orks army list. There is no such thing as a "Codex: Orks army" anymore, only a detachment from the Orks faction. So you are free to throw random single units from the Dread Mob list into any detachment from the Orks faction, including one where most of the units are taken from the Codex: Orks army list.

(Yes this is a really stupid rule, but that's how it works in 7th. Welcome to the edition where the FOC is unbound in all but name.)

No, technically speaking (RAW), pretty much no Imperial Armor units can be taken anymore (except for the Chaos stuff in IA13) as none of them have a faction listed at all and instead just say: Can be taken an 'X' choice in a Codex: X army', of which there is no such thing as a 'Codex: X army' anymore in 7th edition.

this is part of the problem of FW not updating the rules for 7th edition. The whole thing is technically all a complete cluster-feth.

I think it is safe to say that Forgeworld still hasn't wrapped their head around how detachments work in 7th edition, because the re-worked Renegade & Heretics army list in IA13 still doesn't have the correct references for creating a force in 7th edition. But I think we can safely assume that if FW ever figures it out properly, each of their IA army lists will technically be its own faction.

 yakface wrote:
But I think we can safely assume that if FW ever figures it out properly, each of their IA army lists will technically be its own faction.

Maybe, but is that really an ideal solution? For example, that means that Preferred Enemy: Orks would no longer work against a Dread Mob unit because they aren't Orks. And it would go against the precedent established by GW where the stormtrooper codex is part of the IG faction despite them being separate codices. If you're free to take a stormtrooper squad to fill one mandatory troops slot in an IG detachment and an infantry platoon to fill the other then why shouldn't you be able to do the same with the Ork codex and its supplements?

Well Dark Angels Inner Circle rule doesn't work agains Khorne Daemonkin, because it is different faction and not Chaos Space Marines. So GW do this kind of things too.

 Peregrine wrote:
Maybe, but is that really an ideal solution? For example, that means that Preferred Enemy: Orks would no longer work against a Dread Mob unit because they aren't Orks. And it would go against the precedent established by GW where the stormtrooper codex is part of the IG faction despite them being separate codices. If you're free to take a stormtrooper squad to fill one mandatory troops slot in an IG detachment and an infantry platoon to fill the other then why shouldn't you be able to do the same with the Ork codex and its supplements?

You are incorrect sir. The Militarum Tempestus is a separate faction (look it up, page 60). They are Battle Brothers with Astra Militarum (and other armies of the Imperium).

And no, nothing GW does these days is 'the ideal solution' for sure.

Cheers for the input guys.

Hope I didn't seem too argumentative. I just really want to be able to use big trakks or junkas without feeling like I am cheating in some way.