Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My friend and I just started getting into WH40k, and I got Harlequins and he's using Blood Angels. How can I counter his terminators? I get shredded while I'm coming in, and my Death Jester can't do anything because of their 2+ saves.

Harlequins have a lot of fancy ways to handle 2+ Sv's. Harlequins get Bladestorm quite easily via Star/Skyweavers and sticking a Neurodisruptor per unit could help plink off a model. But my favorite way is Psychic Shriek + Mask of Shadows, 3D6 Ldershiptest-7 which allows no armour saves has amazing potential to scare of Terminators.

Just remember, Terminators are expensive, more expensive then two tactical marines. 1 Storm Bolter is worse then 2 Bolters. The difference between 2 Marines punching you and 2 Terminator attacks is one wounding on 3's and the other is 2's, both allow 5++ saves. 2/3 Harlequin weapons allow AP 2 which downgrades that 2+ to a 5++.

So look at every Terminator on the opponents side, then be thankful it's not 2 Tactical Marines as you Bladestorm them to death.

My friend with plenty of Caresses and Kisses those Terminators are going to get ownd in cc
Also take a Starweaver and go flat out first turn

Harlequins have a plethora of methods for dealing with heavy infantry like Terminators. The Star Bolas is AP2, the Kiss is AP2, the Caress ignores armour saves on a to-hit of 6, the Prismatic Cannon can fire AP2 shots, the Shuriken Cannons are AP2 on to-wound rolls of 6, Fusion Pistols are AP2, and Neuropistols are AP2.

Now, if your opponent has Stormshields for a 3+ Inv, then you can do the other incredibly Harlequin thing - run away! Harlequins are incredibly agile, so what you can't kill, you avoid. I just beat an unkillable Necron army - not by killing them, but by running them around while I slowly grabbed more objectives (okay, and I killed them a bit...).

I'm gonna guess the terminators lose this match up. Because they are terrible.

Wouldn't you just shoot the terminators to death. Charge the tactical marines and scouts. Isn't that the game? Charge the shooty guys and shoot the assaulty ones.

Actually, with Harlequin you charge the shooty ones, charge the assault ones, and avoid the hard to kill ones. With the sheer amount of ap2 available, if they don't have storm shields you are golden. A unit kitted out with kisses, and a shadowseer to keep them from being shot at will destroy terminators.

Say 5 kisses in the unit, that's probably 3 wounds at ap2, so they lose a two termies. Then you have 16 more attacks( I think) so about 10 hits 5 wounds so maybe one more dies. Then the three left swing 4 times, hit twice, wound twice maybe so you have about a 2/3 chance of losing a harlequin. That is if you get the charge (which you should) but your harlis just earned almost double their points back. Pretty solid really.

I's agree about avoiding them and the vehicles and such, but as I said we just started. We are just playing a small 400~ points game, effectively 1 squad of terminators vs 1 squad of harlies. I did fine against his tactical marines, but with his terminators... I can't get close enough to kill him and since he has longer range he can start camping with his guns on the objective a turn before I can (we were playing Relic).

It's actually a better question on how to deal with harlies if you play termies. Clowns have so much going for them in this matchup that it's not even funny.

 koooaei wrote:
It's actually a better question on how to deal with harlies if you play termies. Clowns have so much going for them in this matchup that it's not even funny.

Agreed.

I's agree about avoiding them and the vehicles and such, but as I said we just started. We are just playing a small 400~ points game, effectively 1 squad of terminators vs 1 squad of harlies. I did fine against his tactical marines, but with his terminators... I can't get close enough to kill him and since he has longer range he can start camping with his guns on the objective a turn before I can (we were playing Relic).

Terminators have a worse damage output than tactical marines per point, even at long range, and especially at close range where the tac marines are 3 times as efficient.

A harlequin squad in a transport with a caress on the troupe master would be enough to take a squad of terminators.

 JP Hatecraft wrote:
I's agree about avoiding them and the vehicles and such, but as I said we just started. We are just playing a small 400~ points game, effectively 1 squad of terminators vs 1 squad of harlies. I did fine against his tactical marines, but with his terminators... I can't get close enough to kill him and since he has longer range he can start camping with his guns on the objective a turn before I can (we were playing Relic).

Starweaver

You should make your next buy a Shadowseer. She has a psychic power that makes sure the enemy can't shoot you until you are up close (Veil of Tears) and adds a lot of attacks which wound on 2's. As i mentioned earlier, you could also pick her up for Psychic Shriek (The primaris power for Telepathy).

Using her to get you up close, put your none-special weapon Harlequins in the front of the unit to soak up the fire so next turn you just charge in and start wailing on things.

It sounds to me that you have two problems.

#1 - Too small a game. At this level, just a couple good or bad dice rolls can have more impact than any planning.
#2 - Too few models for the points level. If you have just one or two squads of Harlequins costing 400 points, then something's wrong. Chances are you're loading them up with ALL the wargear options. Harlequin upgrades rarely improve their survivability, so this is just more points you're losing every time you lose a model.

You probably won't like the solution, but the answer is;

Buy more models!

Get a Shadowseer for sure! Try to keep your units small, with a single upgrade each. Have a "Terminator Hunting" squad if they're just basic Terminators by purchasing Neurodisruptors or Fusion Pistols (since you're just starting, I'd recommend Fusion Pistols so you have some anti-tank for when you get to that part of the game), and load them into either a transport or group them with a Shadowseer.

Another problem new players tend to overlook is lack of terrain. You need stuff in the way that you can dance around, but your Harlequins have Flip Belts that make movement restrictions less of a hassle than for any other army! If he can't see you, he can't shoot you.

I've seen in several games now that the most effective way of dealing with terminators of all varieties is pure weight of bullets. Even with the TH/SS ones, that 3+ invun save isn't going to help 5 dudes a huge amount when they have got to make 20 odd 3+ saves.

Another tactic is poisoned attacks/shots, just basically drown that unit in firepower and they will go down pretty quickly or lose most of their number so if they do get into assault with you, there isn't much they can do. If they do get into combat with you, make use of the Harlequin's hit and run rules to disengage from combat so you can pump them full of more bullets or poisoned shots. If anything, your opponent should be the one worried about your units killing his terminators.

Or, have starcannons and have weight of fire AND AP 2! The pain train never slows down for the poor terminator.

Martel732 wrote:
Or, have starcannons and have weight of fire AND AP 2! The pain train never slows down for the poor terminator.

Harlequins don't have Starcannons.

 Slaphead wrote:
I've seen in several games now that the most effective way of dealing with terminators of all varieties is pure weight of bullets. Even with the TH/SS ones, that 3+ invun save isn't going to help 5 dudes a huge amount when they have got to make 20 odd 3+ saves.

Another tactic is poisoned attacks/shots, just basically drown that unit in firepower and they will go down pretty quickly or lose most of their number so if they do get into assault with you, there isn't much they can do. If they do get into combat with you, make use of the Harlequin's hit and run rules to disengage from combat so you can pump them full of more bullets or poisoned shots. If anything, your opponent should be the one worried about your units killing his terminators.

Harlequins don't get poison, but I agree with the overall point. The main analog for Harlies is just going to be the number of attacks they get. A unit of 6 Harlequins (w/Troupe master) has 25 WS 6 attacks on the charge, even with just their basic weapons. Add in almost any kind of special weapons for the Harlies and those Terminators are going to be taking 9-10 saves per turn. You can also throw in a few bladestorm shots before you charge for good measure. They'll drop pretty fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:
It sounds to me that you have two problems.

#1 - Too small a game. At this level, just a couple good or bad dice rolls can have more impact than any planning.
#2 - Too few models for the points level. If you have just one or two squads of Harlequins costing 400 points, then something's wrong. Chances are you're loading them up with ALL the wargear options. Harlequin upgrades rarely improve their survivability, so this is just more points you're losing every time you lose a model.

You probably won't like the solution, but the answer is;

Buy more models!

Get a Shadowseer for sure! Try to keep your units small, with a single upgrade each. Have a "Terminator Hunting" squad if they're just basic Terminators by purchasing Neurodisruptors or Fusion Pistols (since you're just starting, I'd recommend Fusion Pistols so you have some anti-tank for when you get to that part of the game), and load them into either a transport or group them with a Shadowseer.

Another problem new players tend to overlook is lack of terrain. You need stuff in the way that you can dance around, but your Harlequins have Flip Belts that make movement restrictions less of a hassle than for any other army! If he can't see you, he can't shoot you.

I totally agree with this post, as well. A very small game makes it easier for the Terminators to out-maneuver you (due to there being only 2 units on the board, your opponent can place them wherever is least convenient for your single unit) and will make a single bad (or lucky, depending on your POV) roll take outsized importance. Getting 2 6s on overwatch is unlikely, for example, but could be a huge help to the Terminators in a game this size.

 Asmodas wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:
I've seen in several games now that the most effective way of dealing with terminators of all varieties is pure weight of bullets. Even with the TH/SS ones, that 3+ invun save isn't going to help 5 dudes a huge amount when they have got to make 20 odd 3+ saves.

Another tactic is poisoned attacks/shots, just basically drown that unit in firepower and they will go down pretty quickly or lose most of their number so if they do get into assault with you, there isn't much they can do. If they do get into combat with you, make use of the Harlequin's hit and run rules to disengage from combat so you can pump them full of more bullets or poisoned shots. If anything, your opponent should be the one worried about your units killing his terminators.

Harlequins don't get poison, but I agree with the overall point. The main analog for Harlies is just going to be the number of attacks they get. A unit of 6 Harlequins (w/Troupe master) has 25 WS 6 attacks on the charge, even with just their basic weapons. Add in almost any kind of special weapons for the Harlies and those Terminators are going to be taking 9-10 saves per turn. You can also throw in a few bladestorm shots before you charge for good measure. They'll drop pretty fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:
It sounds to me that you have two problems.

#1 - Too small a game. At this level, just a couple good or bad dice rolls can have more impact than any planning.
#2 - Too few models for the points level. If you have just one or two squads of Harlequins costing 400 points, then something's wrong. Chances are you're loading them up with ALL the wargear options. Harlequin upgrades rarely improve their survivability, so this is just more points you're losing every time you lose a model.

You probably won't like the solution, but the answer is;

Buy more models!

Get a Shadowseer for sure! Try to keep your units small, with a single upgrade each. Have a "Terminator Hunting" squad if they're just basic Terminators by purchasing Neurodisruptors or Fusion Pistols (since you're just starting, I'd recommend Fusion Pistols so you have some anti-tank for when you get to that part of the game), and load them into either a transport or group them with a Shadowseer.

Another problem new players tend to overlook is lack of terrain. You need stuff in the way that you can dance around, but your Harlequins have Flip Belts that make movement restrictions less of a hassle than for any other army! If he can't see you, he can't shoot you.

I totally agree with this post, as well. A very small game makes it easier for the Terminators to out-maneuver you (due to there being only 2 units on the board, your opponent can place them wherever is least convenient for your single unit) and will make a single bad (or lucky, depending on your POV) roll take outsized importance. Getting 2 6s on overwatch is unlikely, for example, but could be a huge help to the Terminators in a game this size.

I do have a shadowseer and death jester. My list was basically 3 kiss players, 2 embrace players, TM with a powersword, shadowseer level 2, death jester. (I got the cast of players bonus)

My next plan was to get skyweavers and voidweavers for the formation that has 1skyweaver, 1 voidweaver, and 1 troupe, plus the solitaire for the heroes path formation.

I think that might solve both of my problems.

 JP Hatecraft wrote:

 Asmodas wrote:

 Slaphead wrote:
I've seen in several games now that the most effective way of dealing with terminators of all varieties is pure weight of bullets. Even with the TH/SS ones, that 3+ invun save isn't going to help 5 dudes a huge amount when they have got to make 20 odd 3+ saves.

Another tactic is poisoned attacks/shots, just basically drown that unit in firepower and they will go down pretty quickly or lose most of their number so if they do get into assault with you, there isn't much they can do. If they do get into combat with you, make use of the Harlequin's hit and run rules to disengage from combat so you can pump them full of more bullets or poisoned shots. If anything, your opponent should be the one worried about your units killing his terminators.

Harlequins don't get poison, but I agree with the overall point. The main analog for Harlies is just going to be the number of attacks they get. A unit of 6 Harlequins (w/Troupe master) has 25 WS 6 attacks on the charge, even with just their basic weapons. Add in almost any kind of special weapons for the Harlies and those Terminators are going to be taking 9-10 saves per turn. You can also throw in a few bladestorm shots before you charge for good measure. They'll drop pretty fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:
It sounds to me that you have two problems.

#1 - Too small a game. At this level, just a couple good or bad dice rolls can have more impact than any planning.
#2 - Too few models for the points level. If you have just one or two squads of Harlequins costing 400 points, then something's wrong. Chances are you're loading them up with ALL the wargear options. Harlequin upgrades rarely improve their survivability, so this is just more points you're losing every time you lose a model.

You probably won't like the solution, but the answer is;

Buy more models!

Get a Shadowseer for sure! Try to keep your units small, with a single upgrade each. Have a "Terminator Hunting" squad if they're just basic Terminators by purchasing Neurodisruptors or Fusion Pistols (since you're just starting, I'd recommend Fusion Pistols so you have some anti-tank for when you get to that part of the game), and load them into either a transport or group them with a Shadowseer.

Another problem new players tend to overlook is lack of terrain. You need stuff in the way that you can dance around, but your Harlequins have Flip Belts that make movement restrictions less of a hassle than for any other army! If he can't see you, he can't shoot you.

I totally agree with this post, as well. A very small game makes it easier for the Terminators to out-maneuver you (due to there being only 2 units on the board, your opponent can place them wherever is least convenient for your single unit) and will make a single bad (or lucky, depending on your POV) roll take outsized importance. Getting 2 6s on overwatch is unlikely, for example, but could be a huge help to the Terminators in a game this size.

I do have a shadowseer and death jester. My list was basically 3 kiss players, 2 embrace players, TM with a powersword, shadowseer level 2, death jester. (I got the cast of players bonus)

My next plan was to get skyweavers and voidweavers for the formation that has 1skyweaver, 1 voidweaver, and 1 troupe, plus the solitaire for the heroes path formation.

I think that might solve both of my problems.

You using embrace is the problem. Try using 2 Kisses and 3 Caresses in a squad they will shred through Terminators

Also, drop the formation bonus and run the death jester separate. It gives them something else to shoot at, and the death jester can then shoot while the troupe runs upfield.

I fell for this trap the first couple small point games I played, kick it out of your mind and your tactics will really open up.

I'll do that... the embrace didn't seem to good but I didn't want to pay effectively 5 extra points to get more charge damage.

Getting rid of the formation bonus sems like a good idea as well, I'll try that in our next game.

on the flip side really the easiest way is to simply never have terminators go anywhere alone. Harleys are good but they can't beat numbers and if you have any way to hinder their statlines like rad grenades or blind their in even deeper trouble.

As chaos a good one is to feed them mountains of cultists.

I saw this the other day is was pretty funny he brought 60 cultists as his troops and just dogpiled them. Hit n run was impossible because their wasn't anywhere to run too that wasn't in conflict with terrain or cultists. and he just drown them in wounds.
harleys can't handle blobs of a healthy size at all and simply outnumbering them silences them fairly easily.

Another problem harlies face is the fact that their clearly written by the eldar codex as a base as opposed to the de or as their own thing. If nothing more it was inspired by and this solves the issues if dealing with them. Don't play them, I refuse to play eldar armies or Harleys and I enjoy my life much more because of it. And if everyone did this and nobody played them the eldar would stop showing up at the table each weakened in your basement/at your store/at your tournament etc. and maybe gw would get the hint that maybe the eldar need to get taken down a few pegs.

 ionusx wrote:

Another problem harlies face is the fact that their clearly written by the eldar codex as a base as opposed to the de or as their own thing. If nothing more it was inspired by and this solves the issues if dealing with them. Don't play them, I refuse to play eldar armies or Harleys and I enjoy my life much more because of it. And if everyone did this and nobody played them the eldar would stop showing up at the table each weakened in your basement/at your store/at your tournament etc. and maybe gw would get the hint that maybe the eldar need to get taken down a few pegs.

Eldar aren't that strong. Take a look at some of the larger tournament winners - not many Eldar there.

There are plenty of competitive options out there.

zerosignal wrote:

 ionusx wrote:

Another problem harlies face is the fact that their clearly written by the eldar codex as a base as opposed to the de or as their own thing. If nothing more it was inspired by and this solves the issues if dealing with them. Don't play them, I refuse to play eldar armies or Harleys and I enjoy my life much more because of it. And if everyone did this and nobody played them the eldar would stop showing up at the table each weakened in your basement/at your store/at your tournament etc. and maybe gw would get the hint that maybe the eldar need to get taken down a few pegs.

Eldar aren't that strong. Take a look at some of the larger tournament winners - not many Eldar there.

There are plenty of competitive options out there.

'Eldar aren't that strong'
Good joke

 JP Hatecraft wrote:
I'll do that... the embrace didn't seem to good but I didn't want to pay effectively 5 extra points to get more charge damage.

Getting rid of the formation bonus sems like a good idea as well, I'll try that in our next game.

Embrace is good, but Terminators are just about its worst target. It is much better against units with bad saves and/or high toughness and vehicles, where all you really need to do is stack up wounds or armor penetration rolls. If you are going to be re-running this matchup, switching to a few kisses is definitely a good idea.