Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Mods Locked the original so here we go.

Scot: first off, PKs are AP2 not AP1. secondly I am not a huge fan of Meganobz, and fielding 9 of them with ghazzy would be ridiculously expensive. 9 meganobz and ghaz in a battlewagon (nekkid) would be close to 700+pts just for 11 models counting the battlewagon, and worse then that, a good round of shooting leaves the battlewagon dead.

Next, ive done the math, a SM Captain with Shield Eternal would beat ghaz every time. Ghaz gets 1turn with a 2++ if he didn't call waaagh yet, and the Captain gets a 3++ forever. After Ghaz's 1 turn of 2++ he gets a 6+ FNP instead of an actual save. The dirty facts remain that Ghaz can be beaten by a regular space marine captain with a few buffs. Dante is well worth his points and does some huge dmg when he gets to get in combat.

If the Mods locked the original it was probably because of too much slagging off contributors so you all need to be really careful about how you discuss the topic this time around.

The problem with the last thread was someone being rude and reactions to it. we got back on topic and the thread was still locked, very knee jerk reaction honestly, either way this topic is to discuss problems with the Ork Lord of War Ghazghkuul and what can be done to fix him.

A reliable inv save and a points reduction would go a long way imo. Hes still a good fighter in hth with the 2++ but once its gones in trouble.

Ratius that seems like the easiest way to go about making him viable and live up to the fluff a bit. However, I would like to see him gain fearless or at least something similar to it.

Assuming both of them get the charge bonus (for fairness):

SM Captain I'm assuming a pretty normal loadout, Artificer Armor Powerfist and Shield Eternal seems to me like the standard I've played against. 175 points, he's probably also on a bike or with a jump pack if he's meant to be a cc beast but none of that makes a difference in the fight. So with all the upgrades Ghazghkull is MAYBE 25-35 points more expensive. With JUST shield and fist he winds up at 155, but at that point you're just tailoring your build against Ghazghkull, most SM captains have more upgrades than that on them if they're bothering with SE.

Though you keep saying "SM Captain with Shield Eternal" I'll assume you mean something like the above instead of JUST that because without AP2 obviously the marine is never gonna land a hit and ghaz is just gonna paste him.

Round one: Ghaz waaghs, gets his 2++, makes his 6 attacks, deals .832 wounds. Captain makes his 4 attacks, deals .283 wounds.

Round 2+: Ghaz goes down to basically 6++. Deals .694 wounds. Captain deals 1.04.

statistically both should end up dead on round 5, with ghazghkull slightly edging out the captain by something like ~.2 wounds.

and tbh that makes sense as the points fall. Ghaz is 225. A beefed-up SM captain that you normally see is usually running with either a gnarly SM biker squad or Assault marine squad, which means he's gonna have Artificer Armor and a jump pack or bike, he's gonna be something like 205 points.

And why does the SM get some better stuff? because point for point, ork close combat stuff is pretty dang good. There are a couple matchups where tactically the ork player is gonna want to avoid charging in because he's gonna lose out and it's better to shoot the choppies charge the shooties, but not a lot. Tit for tat I think the ONLY thing I wouldn't charge with a half-decent combat unit containing ghazzy is meganobs into assault termies. Everything else is either points-even or points efficient. PK Nob bikers into termies? Every time. Anything orky into non-termie marines? Oh yes.

Fact of the matter is even if he's fighting a dead heat Ghaz is not going to NEED to go five rounds with a space marine captain, and if he does, he's won anyway because it means the whole damn space marine army is locked in cc with his orks! Yes, I'm fairly certain that everyone who doesn't like dudes in suits that make them look like brightly coloured stay-puft marshmellow men can agree that SE builds on space marines are busted, but the fact of the matter is its only on one dude, and points wise he does end up pretty equitable to our EW guy.

If his unit is fast enough to engage you, you can kill them with the unit and ghaz doesn't have to last more than one round against him. If his unit is killy enough to be a threat to Ghaz and his unit, just blow him to smithereens from a distance and ignore the massive blob of 600+ points or throw some chaff at him to keep him occupied. You're playing orks. You've got chaff.

Yes fearless or some sort of " I couldnt care less about you" rule you be good too

Ghaz has 6 attacks on the charge, he hits on 4s (same WS as SM Captain. and he wounds on 2s. So he gets 3 hits and statistically (rounding) 3 wounds. Space marine gets 3 3++ saves and should make 2 of them. Ghaz scores 1 wound. Space marine captain charges and gets 4 attacks, 2 hits and 2 wounds ghaz gets his 2++ and suffers 0 wounds. Turn 2: Ghaz gets 5 attacks hits on 3 (rounding up) and wounds on 3 space marine captain suffers another wound. Space marine fires back with 3 attacks hits on 2 (rounding up) and wounds on 2 and ghaz takes 2 wounds (he will likely fail his 6+ FnP). So now the combat is even and on turn 3 of this magical CC the story remains the same, Space Marine captain with Shield eternal and a PF beats Ghaz to death and at the same time Ghaz beats the Captain to death. Space marine captain with SE and PF is 165pts which is 60pts cheaper then ghaz so point for point a regular Space marine captain with a few upgrades is AS good as Ghaz.

As far as special rules go, Ghaz is lack luster for me. Yes he is a melee beast, IMO.

But he cannot:
*overwatch
*hit at initiative
*Take anything as Troops(Minor Negative as no one can anymore really)
*Waaagh every turn(again minor issue based in personal preference)
*No reliable Invul
*6+ FNP is almost never gonna happen.
*No Rerollable saves or Attacks
*have high leadership. His Leadership 9 when most Characters of this type would be LD 10.
*Ignore his Slow and Purposeful. Every squad he joins gets it.

What he can do:
*Ignore the Run Restriction in slow and purposeful on Waaagh turns
*armor 2+ Means he is tough.
*T5
*Eternal Warrior and FnP mean he is tough.
*If warlord all units are fearless in Waaaghs.
*He can get a 2++ even if it is temporary. But it does last till your next turn.

So I'm pretty torn. He is a good model in my opinion, but he does detriment any unit he joins with Slow And Purposeful. So no overwatch or overrun.

If Ghazz gets a wound through isn't it going it ID the enemy combatant?

Yes hawkeye except that the shield eternal makes them Eternal warrior so they only suffer 1 wound instead of instant death

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Ghaz has 6 attacks on the charge, he hits on 4s (same WS as SM Captain. and he wounds on 2s. So he gets 3 hits and statistically (rounding) 3 wounds. Space marine gets 3 3++ saves and should make 2 of them. Ghaz scores 1 wound. Space marine captain charges and gets 4 attacks, 2 hits and 2 wounds ghaz gets his 2++ and suffers 0 wounds. Turn 2: Ghaz gets 5 attacks hits on 3 (rounding up) and wounds on 3 space marine captain suffers another wound. Space marine fires back with 3 attacks hits on 2 (rounding up) and wounds on 2 and ghaz takes 2 wounds (he will likely fail his 6+ FnP). So now the combat is even and on turn 3 of this magical CC the story remains the same, Space Marine captain with Shield eternal and a PF beats Ghaz to death and at the same time Ghaz beats the Captain to death. Space marine captain with SE and PF is 165pts which is 60pts cheaper then ghaz so point for point a regular Space marine captain with a few upgrades is AS good as Ghaz.

Aight, well it's clear you're not going to listen to math or logic here, so I'm done with this thread.

Look. Dude. Statistics doesn't "round up". Even if someone can't cause .684 wounds and someone can't respond with 1.04 wounds in an actual game, when you're doing theoretical math, you are allowed to use big-boy decimals. 3 attacks hit 1.5 times cause 1.25 wounds 1.04 of which go through. Your rounding up causes the combat to last two rounds faster than it should, and you're completely ignoring the fact that nobody with a brain is gonna take a SM captain with JUST the shield eternal and a powerfist, because it's a terrible fething idea. If you put that down on the table against me, I would just laugh knowing you'd wasted 165 points on a model that was never ever going to see combat because I was just gonna run circles around him or throw 12-man boyz squads in his path the whole game and he'd have no possible way of getting close enough to hurt anything valuable.

Your sarcasm of "round three of this magical combat" is correct, because A) A SM captain would never make it past round one against Ghazkhull backed by any decent ork unit and B) That captain is going to be at least 190 points if anyone's going to put him on the table. So you're complaining that a 225 point HQ could be beaten by a 165 point HQ tailored to beat him up. So what? I could build a 250+ point chapter master without shield eternal and Ghaz would ID him in a single round of combat. Is that fair? b-but I gave him terminator armor and lightning claws and a special swaggy hat and in my fluff he's the head of my whole chapter and I paid more for him!

Ghazghkull has usability issues, most definitely. Dude really needs like a 4+ invuln. It's wack that he's got his own book and he can't even take any of his own special relics. It's stupid that he's a fething lord of war, that's just GW trying to shove 1000$ titans down everyone's throats. But honestly his biggest problem is that Orks don't friggin need a giant 200+ point beatstick HQ, they need force multipliers. Because we have a formation with 100 dudes in it that attacks with the equivalent force of 30 ghazkhulls and we just need a way to get it across the dang field semi-alive and krumpin'. Ghaz is never gonna be worth the 225 points we pay for him until he does something real and solid for all ork units, not some piddly-ass buff to the unit that least needs his help because they're just slightly less powerful 40 point versions of him.

^^ ^^
Isn't that the reason the last thread got banned?

scot: I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, i was pointing out that in a theoretical battle. Anyway Im sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic or hurtful, I round up my fractions because 1: I was being VERY lazy and 2: Fractions don't translate into the game play as well as we would like, hence randomness, a factor I love about my orks. As for a SM Captain not taking anything else...ive never really played SM in any capacity besides owning a few and playing around with them, SO i know nothing about whats good on a space marine captain and all their stuff. Anyway, Still keep this thread open for more conversation about things wrong with ghaz.

Oh my mistake, not a marine player. Nor is anyone in my group.

Well now that everything wrong with Ghaz has been pointed out. Maybe this thread should transfer to how to best use Ghazzy if you're going to. Just an idea, maybe people would rather keep the same complaints going in a cycle (and I'm not being sarcastic, if this is a venting thread, let it be a venting thread ).

we all need a good vent when GW is making rules, As for fixing him? I don't think you can without breaking the new codex and seeing as the orks went 2-3 editions without a new codex I doubt were going to get another one for a LONG time.

The fault with Ghazghkull is the same with every ork warboss no saves in close combat. However I think i found away to make Ghazy crazy op, but its expensive, run the ork horde detachment that allows you to Waaagh every turn, now that you can Waaagh every turn Ghazy has a 2+ invulnerable save for the whole game.

Incorrect Chazz, Ghaz only gets a 2++ on the turn that GHAZ calls his waaagh, the only way to run that formation is to have the Warboss as your warlord, and if the warboss is the warlord then Ghaz can't use his warlord traits.

Ghaz dosent get the 2+ on the charge like he used to. I play and love Ghaz like a mug you put him with cheap basic nobs one witha power klaw and Mad doc as your pain boy your gonna do some crazy damage. On top of that you through in a big mek with a KMM or better a MKK its gonna reach sombody. I have won 99% of all my CC when Ive charged with GHaz, even against super expensive deamon princes. You just gotta call your waaagh at the right time and know when to through Ghaz at a challenge or your cheap boss nob.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
we all need a good vent when GW is making rules, As for fixing him? I don't think you can without breaking the new codex and seeing as the orks went 2-3 editions without a new codex I doubt were going to get another one for a LONG time.

Not fixing him, how to use him. Like what unit to put him with etc.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Yes hawkeye except that the shield eternal makes them Eternal warrior so they only suffer 1 wound instead of instant death

The Shield Eternal is the problem here I suspect.

Try comparing Ghaz to any CSM HQ other than Abaddon.

I have to agree with Waaagh 18, pointing out the issues is alright and good, but simply whining and bringing up ideas to fix him seems less suited for a General Discussion. There have already been multiple threads in Proposed Rules regarding that so there's no reason to repeat it here.

With regards to actually using him in game, one of the ways to make up for his general lack of buffs is to take him in a Council of WAAAGH! With the buffs involved in that deathstar, he gets a lot more skill with WS8, 2 extra Warlord traits and access to hard-to-remove FNP from the inclusion of the Mad Dok in the unit. The best part is that everyone within 12" also get to re-roll failed Morale and Pinning tests. So if you're really hell bent on trying to make him a Deathstar kind of unit, this would be your main thing. Throw him and his pals (preferably having the Big Mek take a KFF) in a battlewagon and you're on your way.

Mad Doc went from my lest favorite playble HQ, but favorite fluff wise HQ, to my favorite all around ork.

 Grimskul wrote:
I have to agree with Waaagh 18, pointing out the issues is alright and good, but simply whining and bringing up ideas to fix him sees less suited for a General Discussion. There have already been multiple threads in Proposed Rules regarding that so there's no reason to repeat it here.

With regards to actually using him in game, one of the ways to make up for his general lack of buffs is to take him in a Council of WAAAGH! With the buffs involved in that deathstar, he gets a lot more kill with WS8, 2 extra Warlord traits and access to hard-to-remove FNP from the inclusion of the Mad Dok in the unit. The best part is that everyone within 12" also get to re-roll failed Morale and Pinning tests. So if you're really hell bent on trying to make him a Deathstar kind of unit, this would be your main thing. Throw him and his pals (preferably having the Big Mek take a KFF) in a battlewagon and you're on your way.

The council is actually a very dangerous formation. Combined with Blitz Brigade to get Ghazzy pretty far up the board, and the Mega Force Field to protect his Wagon, Ghazzy becomes fearsome. If the extra Warlord traits came from Codex Orks instead of the Supplement it would be better though, since the Supplement ones are mostly useless on Ghazzy. +1 BS? It's OK for maybe 1 extra hit. Outflank on him won't do much because you want him central. FNP is useless with Mad Dok in there. Crusader helps a little because he can run during his Waaagh turn. The best traits to get are master crafted and Rage, which help Ghazzy. So there are 2 useless ones, 2 small buffs, and 2 that are very good. In large games (which Ghazzy was obviously intended for) his council makes him a force to be reckoned with.

Or just take him exclusively in a green tide. After turn 1 he has an endless 2++ invlun, fearless and basically will never die. And that is without mentioning that his entire army will then be fearless including that big ol unit of meganobs. Somehow I don't think they short sold Big Ghazzy even if it is solely by making the Green Tide a thing.

 Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:
Or just take him exclusively in a green tide. After turn 1 he has an endless 2++ invlun, fearless and basically will never die. And that is without mentioning that his entire army will then be fearless including that big ol unit of meganobs. Somehow I don't think they short sold Big Ghazzy even if it is solely by making the Green Tide a thing.

Doesn't work that way. Ghazzy only gets his 2++ if he is the warlord and if he is the warlord you only get to call the Waaagh! once. Plus, the Green Tide will be slowed down by him being Slow and Purposeful.

Yep, seems there's no loophole.

Even the book's formation for eternal waaagh! with boss, mek, nobs/manz, 6 boyz and grots requires the boss to be warlord.

The problem with throwing ghaz into a council formation is that without a vehicle and without any upgrades your looking at around a 500-600pt unit that has only ghaz in it thats worth much (and grotsnik) When you upgrade it appropriately (give warbosses MA and someone gets Da Lucky stick) then throw in a battlewagon and your looking at 1k-1.2kpts and thats your whole army basically. A good round of shooting from your opponent leaves them foot sloggin and then they are dead to AP2 weapons before they get a chance to do anything.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
The problem with throwing ghaz into a council formation is that without a vehicle and without any upgrades your looking at around a 500-600pt unit that has only ghaz in it thats worth much (and grotsnik) When you upgrade it appropriately (give warbosses MA and someone gets Da Lucky stick) then throw in a battlewagon and your looking at 1k-1.2kpts and thats your whole army basically. A good round of shooting from your opponent leaves them foot sloggin and then they are dead to AP2 weapons before they get a chance to do anything.

First thing, the Warbosses in that formation can't take the DLS since units taken from a formation/detachment from WAAAGH! Ghazghkull are only allowed access to the relics from the supplement. Secondly, I would say that the fact that you're allowed to throw 2 Warbosses, a Big Mek AND Ghazzy+Grotsnik is something you can't do without wasting extra points on troops tax or going unbound to unlock those extra HQ slots. That's a LOT of force concentration you're not normally able to do in most lists and is really dead killy, with all those high WS characters the unit is effectively immune to the dreaded challenge mechanic that neuters so many of our units. Thirdly, it might be an all eggs in one basket approach but chances are if you're taking Ghazghkull to begin with you're not going to be playing him in a low point game anyways so that point is moot, since you'll fluff the rest of the army up with similar threats (either Bully Boyz or just lots of 20 boy mobz in Battlewagons) to saturate your opponent's firepower across the field. And again, assuming you got a KFF or Mega-KFF from the Big Mek, the Battlewagon will likely be sufficient to carry them through and if it does go pop, its likely after the enemy has already expended the majority of their firepower and thus left the rest of your force unmolested to wreak havoc on the rest of their units. Also, don't forget the council's role as a force multiplier in giving a guaranteed 12" range of re-rolling failed morale and pinning tests. For a mechanized force, that's pretty damn solid for when your vehicles get wrecked or explode.

Instead of harping on Ghazghkull's inadequacies, would you like to suggest on how to work him out in his current state and form? As I have already said, its not much of a discussion if all we do is say how cruddy he is and propose what he could be to be better, that's already been done multiple times in the Proposed Rules area, so there's no reason to retread on that here.