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So there has been a rumor that 40k is going to get an End Times. The rumor I heard largely revolves around Ghazghkull. It sounds Like Ghazghkull rallies every ork in the Galaxy and unites them under his rule. This wouldn't surprise me as it is common knowledge that if the orks were to unite they would crush all opposition. My question is does anyone believe this and what are your thoughts on the subject.

chazz huggins wrote:
So there has been a rumor that 40k is going to get an End Times. The rumor I heard largely revolves around Ghazghkull. It sounds Like Ghazghkull rallies every ork in the Galaxy and unites them under his rule. This wouldn't surprise me as it is common knowledge that if the orks were to unite they would crush all opposition. My question is does anyone believe this and what are your thoughts on the subject.

Not anytime soon, they've been able to keep a lot of interest so far with the new sub-factions that they've been releasing like the Skitarii and Harlequins. Plus the End Times happened primarily for Fantasy since they didn't know what direction to heads towards since they lost a lot of sales on that product line. Plus, unlike 40K, its scale is much smaller given its Fantasy 1-planet setting, so there's less lee-way for expansions on the same level as 40K.

Plus, almost every codex mentions or fluffs up their potential galaxy-end game with either all the Necrons uniting/awaking together, Orks going on a collective WAAAAGH!, The 13th Black Crusade, More Hive Fleets for Tyranids...etc. So I wouldn't read into that very much.

in fact, the only armies that don't have a good end game plan is the imperium. Their end game is that some of the primarchs will return....good luck, and then theirs the fluff about maybe killing the emperor and having him be reborn.

 Grimskul wrote:

chazz huggins wrote:
So there has been a rumor that 40k is going to get an End Times. The rumor I heard largely revolves around Ghazghkull. It sounds Like Ghazghkull rallies every ork in the Galaxy and unites them under his rule. This wouldn't surprise me as it is common knowledge that if the orks were to unite they would crush all opposition. My question is does anyone believe this and what are your thoughts on the subject.

Not anytime soon, they've been able to keep a lot of interest so far with the new sub-factions that they've been releasing like the Skitarii and Harlequins. Plus the End Times happened primarily for Fantasy since they didn't know what direction to heads towards since they lost a lot of sales on that product line. Plus, unlike 40K, its scale is much smaller given its Fantasy 1-planet setting, so there's less lee-way for expansions on the same level as 40K.

Plus, almost every codex mentions or fluffs up their potential galaxy-end game with either all the Necrons uniting/awaking together, Orks going on a collective WAAAAGH!, The 13th Black Crusade, More Hive Fleets for Tyranids...etc. So I wouldn't read into that very much.

40K is long overdue for some major Fluff alternating event, nothing universe changing has happened since the nids showed up. Plus if GW could stimulate sales by doing a 40k End Times why wouldn't they.

chazz huggins wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

chazz huggins wrote:
So there has been a rumor that 40k is going to get an End Times. The rumor I heard largely revolves around Ghazghkull. It sounds Like Ghazghkull rallies every ork in the Galaxy and unites them under his rule. This wouldn't surprise me as it is common knowledge that if the orks were to unite they would crush all opposition. My question is does anyone believe this and what are your thoughts on the subject.

Not anytime soon, they've been able to keep a lot of interest so far with the new sub-factions that they've been releasing like the Skitarii and Harlequins. Plus the End Times happened primarily for Fantasy since they didn't know what direction to heads towards since they lost a lot of sales on that product line. Plus, unlike 40K, its scale is much smaller given its Fantasy 1-planet setting, so there's less lee-way for expansions on the same level as 40K.

Plus, almost every codex mentions or fluffs up their potential galaxy-end game with either all the Necrons uniting/awaking together, Orks going on a collective WAAAAGH!, The 13th Black Crusade, More Hive Fleets for Tyranids...etc. So I wouldn't read into that very much.

40K is long overdue for some major Fluff alternating event, nothing universe changing has happened since the nids showed up. Plus if GW could stimulate sales by doing a 40k End Times why wouldn't they.

Because there's no need to. 40K has for a long time been a "stroke before the clock hits midnight" sort of game. There's so much to cover within the years between 30K-40K that it's not necessary to disturb the status quo of the several factions for the time being. All it would do is alienate a lot of the (many already disgruntled) players from the game as The End Times in fantasy has already done to a large degree.

Don't forget, change doesn't necessarily mean good. Especially if GW can't pull it off very well, and in 40K there's a lot more loose ends to tie up in a long-game changer like an End Times moreso than Fantasy, and they glossed over a LOT of stuff/factions already with that.

But there is a need, lots of people want it, and even if they don't right now they will when it happens. Because GW knows people will buy those 100$ books, and then those 80$ soft covers.

It's a setting, not a story.

1. So was WHFB.

2. There is nothing in the definition of a narrative "setting" that states it can't progress or evolve.

WHFB was not a setting. Its setting was "The Old World". Its story was the machinations of various powerful mortals and planar beings, culminating in the End Times.

40K is a setting. It is provided to us in bits and pieces of lies, legends, half-truths, myths and rumors, which we are explicitly told to use, ignore, or change as we see fit. We are given a scope so vast that anything can happen within it, without the rest of the galaxy even noticing.

40K is not a setting. Its setting was "a Galaxy of only war". It's story was the machinations of various powerful mortals and intergalactic beings, culminating in the End Times.

WHFB is a setting. It is provided to us in bits and pieces of lies, legends, half-truths, myths and rumors, which we are explicitly told to use, ignore, or change as we see fit. We are given a scope so vast that anything can happen within it, without the rest of the galaxy even noticing.

There is no difference between the two, and again there is nothing in the definition of "a setting" that states that it can not progress or evolve.

I wouldn't expect anything for 40k, at least not in the short term.

WFB, I believe, is having a transition as a result of the legal disputes GW has had over copyright issues.

This issue is compounded by dropping sales in WFB.

So much of the material is ripped from other high fantasy sources that it has become very difficult for GW managers to willfully invest in a product they cannot enforce ownership over. Because of this, WFB is having a change of settings and factions to deviate away from the competition. The end times is simply a tool of change.

40K on the other hand is more easily enforced as a clear intellectual property, despite some obvious inspirations from other sources. We have seen some changes, imperial guard and storm troopers changing their names for example, but on the whole the 40K universe does not need the same overhaul.

Should sales of 40k drop in the future, then we may see a change to the status quo and something like the end times.

Personally I believe that should the end times for WFB be a success, then we will see a resurgence in localised 40K campaigns. Event's like the 13th crusade, or a hive fleet encroachment may be given a spotlight. However, I don't imagine that they will be all encompassing or change the setting as much as the end times.

The timeline was moving forward steadily right up til the 13th Black Crusade, at a rate of about 1 game year per real life year. This didn't destroy the setting and there is no reason why a similar slow crawl forward would suddenly destroy the setting. People keep acting as if moving the timeline forward were some dangerous never before tried thing, when in reality, it was the standard case until the last few editions. People also make the error of equating timeline advancement with stupendous overturning change such as the Emperor dying or Primarchs returning, when nothing of the sort needs to happen. The slow steady incremental advancement of the timeline in past editions did not involve this, and there is no reason rolling over into M42 could not do this incremental movement.

Not only did the setting not explode when the timeline moved forward in the past, but the advancement allowed for the advancement of individual character stories, even though the larger universe stayed largely status quo. For example, only when there was movement was Tycho able to evolve as a character, from a generic BA captain, to being disfigured as a result of being felled by a Weirdboy in a battle report, to then the masked Tycho, and finally to his death. Similarly, Yarrick developed through his defeat on Golgotha (an Epic Squat/Imperial vs. Ork battle report), heightening the rivalry between him and Ghazghkull. A lot of the background which gets taken for granted today did not spring up unchanging and set in stone, but developed in gradual steps as a result of timeline movement. Some people might question what is the point of incremental advancement if the larger picture is not radically changed, and the answer is it allows for individual stories to change and progress.

There have already been mentions in a couple of BL books, such as Cadian Blood, which take place in M42, and the Imperium hasn't fallen apart. Also as another poster has said, not every faction has ten thousand years of history to play around with, which is why simply limiting things to the Imperium's past is not good as it leaves these players out permanently. The Tau were not a technological race until recently. When they were first encountered by the Imperium 6000 years ago they were stone age hunters, which is hardly suitable for a 40K game. The Tyranids did not really arrive on the scene til Behemoth. The Necrons did not really become more active until recently. Sure one can try to handwave it as an isolated tomb world or a splinter fleet that conveniently disappears again, but then you also relegate these to effectively never making any impact whatsoever on the background if they are forced to somehow be forgotten about or be made to go inactive again (so that the Imperium can be surprised when the Necrons or Tyranids really show up in late M41). Players usually like to play their armies as what their armies actually are, not handwaved "stand-in" armies or have deus ex machina negate any impact they might make on background.

The current static background creates problems with expansion of the armies. For example, the Tau have only been active and technological for a short period of time. Some of their weapons in their Codex are recent additions, such as the rail rifle. This creates problems for GW if more additions are added in future editions, as ever more stuff gets crammed into a narrow unchanging window of time. One thing GW has done is try to retcon stuff further back, such as the Tau's Custodian class carrier ship, but that only goes so far because it still runs into the barrier of when the Tau actually became a technological spacefaring race, and also creates problems with continuity. This is because the Tau are explicitly described as having inferior space forces in the Damocles Crusade, and the Custodian was part of a Tau naval expansion and modernization as a result of shortcomings uncovered during that Crusade. Retcon things too far back and you overturn the reason for the Custodian's existence. Don't retcon enough and you run into the barrier of the Damocles Crusade as the earliest time when one can even think about a Custodian class carrier existing, even if just on the drawing board. It also strains ever more suspension of disbelief if the Tau are shown as taking over more worlds or sectors given the small size of their empire and their limited resources.

There is also the issue of special characters being at an implausibly large number of locations in quick succession if the timeline is right up against the end of 999.M41. For example, Farsight is located on Vior'los when it is attacked by a full scale Tyranid invasion in 997.M41. The planet is virtually stripped bare by the time Farsight pulls a victory off, and the Farsight Enclave supplement says he strove to see Vior'los rebuilt. This means there is virtually no time for him to get anywhere else to fight in any new engagements given the slower rate of Tau starship travel and any time taken up in actually leading the rebuilding of Vior'los.

Constrained by the existing timeline, the background of the Tau and certain other races is inherently limited to the last few centuries, something that might not be apparent for Imperial only players. Retcon has its limits and ultimately strains suspension of disbelief or creates more conflict with existing background. The only solution lies in one early M3 leader's catchphrase, "Forward"

We are at 999.M41 if the story advances by a few months the game becomes WH41K and that just sounds silly. Also the entire setting is at `the end times` already. Overall it's a stupid rumor that I don't believe for a second. The great cataclysmic event is being played out via Forgeworld and the Horus Heresy marinefest.

MarsNZ wrote:
We are at 999.M41 if the story advances by a few months the game becomes WH41K and that just sounds silly. Also the entire setting is at `the end times` already. Overall it's a stupid rumor that I don't believe for a second. The great cataclysmic event is being played out via Forgeworld and the Horus Heresy marinefest.

Just roll over the date and keep the brand name as 40K. 20th Century Fox didn't suddenly have a naming crisis or get suddenly rendered incapable of putting out anything when it rolled over into the current century and still exists as 20th Century Fox.

Not going to happen.

WH had the End Times because GW wanted to streamline the selection, and get rid of some armies, so they can focus more on 40k.

It wouldn't be a very good idea to have an end times, since the current time is already getting to an end time of a sort. Ork WAAAAGH!!!!'s are getting larger and more frequent, 'nids are knocking at the doorstep, crons are waking up, you've got the black crusades, so pretty much 40k is bad news bears for the IoM.

I also think warhammer fantasy got the End of Time to create a new setting for a skirmish based fantasy game that happens after this «End of Time» to replace Lord of the Ring/ The Hobbit that they will stop selling and supporting once their contract end in 2016. Fantasy will probably remain around too, but in a much less present manner. Has for 40K, it seems they are launching a lot of balloons to integrate new armies. I don't think an End of Time for 40K is necessary. There is no major change comming for that game in the predictable future.

A common misconception is to equate timeline progression to End Times. The two are not the same. The End Times for 40K will not happen because 40K is GW's cash cow. However timeline progression can happen, and did happen for a good chunk of 40K's RL history, at a rate of about 1 real life year = 1 40K game year.

In advancing the timeline, it solves some of the problems I highlighted earlier in this thread, and gives individual smaller stories opportunity to develop even while the larger galaxy situation does not necessary shift overly much. The key for how the various factions' doomsday scenarios can all not come to pass is dynamic equilibrium. The different factions all end up canceling or spoiling each other's ultimate victory. That way things can change, while at the same time things remain the same.

My own examples:

Chaos Space Marines: Abaddon breaks through the Cadian Gate with his 13th Black Crusade. However his advance on Terra slows to a crawl as the Imperium draws in reinforcements from its periphery, leaving its far-flung borders stripped of resources and troops. Meanwhile more of Abaddon's forces start leaving to pursue their own goals or vendettas as they start encountering more resistance or more success, running the risk of his 13th Black Crusade losing focus and breaking up.

Chaos Daemons: With the hint of the Imperium tottering and about to collapse, the 4 Chaos gods fall to infighting. Amid all this, there are rumors of miracles hailed by those within the Imperium (such as the Sisters of Battle) as the work of saints and/or the Primarchs returned (whether this is true or not is left in the air). Meanwhile, as shown in the Codex Harlequins, the Harlequins enact their greatest performance (and this could be a very long one so no need for it to end immediately), with the aim of somehow deceiving Slaanesh into saving the Eldar race.

Craftworld Eldar: Ynnead is not yet ready. With the example of Valedor/Duriel as a precedent, the Craftworlds unleash ancient weapons they have been storing up, in order to devastate the teeming forces of the Tyranids and Orks around Octarius. Others lead large scale expeditions to recover artifacts from the crone worlds in the Eye of Terror, and to strike at Chaos. In doing so, they also weaken Abaddon's drive on Terra, and weaken or seal up daemonic rifts and other warp phenomena, but at the cost of many more Eldar lives and the expenditure of irreplaceable ancient artifacts and weapons. Like Duriel, it may be a final flaring of the Eldar's past glory before they go into the long night.

Dark Eldar: Commorragh descends into even more anarchy as Khaine's Gate opens and daemons flood into the city. Vect and Malys's factions continue to fight even as they turn to fight the daemons. The galaxy gets a relative reprieve from the large scale raiding as the Dark Eldar have to look to their own survival.

Harlequins: They begin their final performance, meant to save the Eldar race by deceiving Slaanesh into somehow saving rather than destroying the Eldar. Nobody really knows how long this performance will go on for before the climax...

Imperium: By drawing forces from its periphery, the Imperium stalls the advance of Chaos towards Terra. However rebellions flare up as worlds secede or feel abandoned to the threats of other forces or from increased demands on them by the Administratum. Religious fervor grips the population as they hope for a savior. Rumors of miracles, saints, Primarchs, or even the Emperor abound but none can be proven and no definitive savior appears.

Necrons: The Necron dynasties still squabble among themselves or work towards their own separate goals. The Flayer virus means more and more Necrons fall victim to madness. The Great Work of sealing the galaxy off from the warp remains stalled or suffers setbacks. The numbers of the Necrons themselves dwindle as they attempt to fight off or cull the Tyranids that would devour the galaxy the Necrons see as theirs to rule, but their efforts pay off in part as their super science inflicts horrendous casualties on the Tyranids, enough for the galaxy to have a bit of time before the next onslaught. Meanwhile disquieting rumors arise of more C'tan fragments going escaping and attempting to reform themselves.

Orks: Despite all attempts to unite them (even that of their gods), the Orks remain stubbornly fractured. Their pocket empires get picked off by resurgent Necrons and invading Tyranids, however at the same time the Orks critically sap the strength of these foes as well.

Skitarii: Their search for the Omnicopaeia turns out to be a failure. The hints peter out or they find the thing smashed or not what they had hoped for.

Tau: Further expansion of their space and ideology is curtailed by being caught between the multiple threats of Orks, Tyranids, and the Imperium's counterattack. The Imperium's attack however suffers from cut supply lines due to resources being drawn off to reinforce the area around Terra against Abaddon. Orks and Tyranids fight it out, and the Tau manage to eke out survival as these various threats battle each other.

Tyranids: The vast numbers of the Tyranids meet the vast numbers of Orks, and the super-science of the Necrons. The Eldar also meddle by unleashing ancient weapons to deny the Tyranids biomass. The Tyranids overcome through numbers and adaptation but take horrific casualties even for them. The galaxy gets a bit of breathing space.

Ok regardless of weather the end times are real or not, and purely for the sake if discussion let's assume they are. What do we think will happen as far as the narrative is concerned, we have the ghazghkull rumor,and its likely we'll see primarchs return, More nids from the neighboring galaxy.( I would also put nids as a front runner for top dog in the end times as nobody knows just how many are waiting at the edge of the Galaxy), I mean the game has been hinting at this for a while. The Wolf Time is coming.

Nids don't have enough character to gain any large stakes imo.

They simply exist to pose an external threat and ultimate bad guy. They are very 2 dimensional. All they do is invade eat and move on. This makes writing them into the bigger picture quite challenging, as there is literally no dialogue between them and the other species. I imagine they would invade, and ultimately be pushed back to uncharted regions of space again.

Factions like orks, necrons or chaos gaining power on the other hand would be far more interesting as far as narrative story telling goes. They simply have more internal and external dynamics to work with.

40K doesn't need an End Times, because it would be stupid. Warhammer Fantasy occurred on ONE world. There's billions of them in the galaxy.

For an illustration, let's take the Eldar. In one way, they've already had their End Times. Their decadent society birthed a new Chaos God, wiping the vast majority of Eldar out of existence, permanently (as they used to reincarnate). It irreparably damaged their galaxy-spanning transport system, and forced most of the survivors into two opposite camps for survival (Path and Soulstone Eldar and their dark kin). While it wasn't the WORST POSSIBLE end to their civilization, it was really, really bad.

Even after that, we have huge, planet-sized Craftworlds of billions of Eldar around. The humans got inflicted the Eye of Terror, but it also calmed the Warp Storms and allowed the Imperial expansion. I'm not sure the orks even noticed!

40K could stand to have some big, significant events. It could stand to explore the 42nd millennium (and, I would argue, the 40th, and the 39th, etc.). It doesn't need to have some sort of complete destruction and reboot--which is what the End Times has been revealed to be for Fantasy.

For example, here's some things that I think you could do with 40K:

Astronomican malfunction: The light of the Emperor goes dark for say, a year. Uprisings, rebellions, fear...

Golden Throne malfunction: maybe the Imperium is forced to seek help from the Tau (secretly, but perhaps trading Warp-technology to them), Eldar, or Necrons?

Dark Angels: The secrets of the Inner Circle get revealed and the Imperium declares war on the Inner Circle while the other Dark Angels try to determine where their loyalties lie

Cadia falls: again, it seems like 'The End', but the Ork book has already hinted at the possibility of the Ork empires fighting Abbadon

There's just a lot of stuff that you could do in 40K, without totally kicking apart the setting, that would still be pretty significant.

This is 40K. These are the End Times. What passes for a "story" in this setting is told from the perspective of the Imperium of Man, of Humanity, and this is the era of Mankind's twilight.

As the saying goes, "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment". All the rumors and myths of the return of this, that or another Primarch, hero, legendary figure, whatever, are just that. Even if such figures do return, it is too little, too late. Mankind is doomed. It's the conceit of the setting.

We already had 40k end Times and it failed as gw didn't have the balls to follow through on the promises made that the events would affect the story.

With what they have done to fantasy we may see something similar in 40k as they try to strengthen their ip, this would be fairly easy but as others have said could disgruntle the vets... And everyone else for that matter.

Fantasy sales have tanked hard, the End Times is a shot at the buzzer. If it succeeds then they will have a new direction to move in, if it doesn't then they will use the End Times to wrap it up. 40k is not in this position, and does not need its own End Times yet.

I think with Shield of Baal and other campaigns they are incrementally advancing the story line, but the setting is too large to facilitate and end times scenario. There would be too many moving parts and it would take years in RT to put out all of the products and rules. Also, I don't think the way things are going that they are trying to facilitate the same streamlining that WFB went through.
If anything else, with Ad Mech, Harlequins, rumors of further differentiation among codices with supplements in both elder and space marines on the horizon, and the increasing compartmentalization and modularization of the evolving FOCs, it is lending itself to an increasingly larger and larger game. I would imagine by the time 8th edition comes out 2000+ with multiple detachments and FOC will be tournament standard, as at least in my local meta, they have become increasingly common.
What I think everyone is mistaking for a build up to “End Times” is just a broadening of the setting. (Because contrary to previous posts, that is what 40k is. It is so brad that it can’t be classified as a story, because there is no unifying narrative that affects a majority of the characters in a cohesive way. The last time a cohesive story existed for the 40k universe that realistically affected all factions was the heresy. (Case in point, shield of Baal, A massive campaign affecting several factions, but, for the most part ignored and was ignored by chaos) ) The fluff in the codices that show a build up to an end are simply modifications to the setting to justify larger armies and set a more dire, and frankly Gothic (in that insurmountable challenge sort of way) setting.
If, for whatever reason, they went through an end times, and we came out on the other side with an Imperium forces codex, and chaos forces codex, and elder codex (all 3 flavors), an ork codex, a necron codex, and a Tyranid codex (as the xenos don’t really form a cohesive faction), many people would be vary angry. These larger codices, especially the IOM and the Chaos would be so large that they would be prohibitively expensive and I think that format, while easier to internally and externally balance, would lead to a mass exodus from the game. Despite what many people say online, the overall meta appears to be wanting more customization and options, and less rubber stamp faction oriented armies. If I’m not mistaken there was no allies chart or rules in WFB, and that alone show that the nature and therefore the needs, of each game is so fundamentally different that an End Times scenario, handled In the same fashion would not do well. Just My opinion,

Shield of Baal is actually a retcon of sorts. It stepped backwards in the timeline a bit and has replaced the "Darkest Hour" from the 5th edition codex, which would have seen the Blood Angels face down Leviathan and a daemon army at the same time. They are in much better shape now.

 Orblivion wrote:
Shield of Baal is actually a retcon of sorts. It stepped backwards in the timeline a bit and has replaced the "Darkest Hour" from the 5th edition codex, which would have seen the Blood Angels face down Leviathan and a daemon army at the same time. They are in much better shape now.

Could still happen. SoB: Exterminatus ends with the Cryptoid tendril of Leviathan damaged but very much alive and setting course for Baal. It could take them a year to get there (assuming they don't stop to either snack on a few unguarded worlds on the way, or join up with another fleet that brings fresh resources), which is plenty of time for a Daemon army to appear on another flank.

Unlike Warhammer Fantasy Battle, there's no way to push the reset button inherent to the setting if Chaos burns the galaxy, if the Tyranids devour everything there is to be devoured, if the Orks crush everyone else in a stampede of violence, or if the Necrons enslave everyone under an everlasting Silent Empire. Hell even the good factions would pretty much mean the end of the setting upon their victory. The Imperium purges all non-useful Xenos and the Emperor smothers all other presences in the warp. The Eldar re-establish the old empire and kick everyone back into their proper places. The Tau establish a permanent hegemony with no serious rivals upon achieving galactic conquest, much like the Imperium.

If one of the factions wins, that's that. So no, you really can't have it resemble how the end times went for FB.

Majority of factions have an endgame scenario. I love the Ork stuff. In the Ghazghkull supplement much much more is revealed in detail and the story progresses further then what is told in the Ork Codex. It's not so much that he's trying to unite all the Orks. He jumping from major Waaaaagh! to major Waaaaaagh! and increasing them like a major beacon. His aim is to create enough Waaaaagh! throughout the galaxy (they don't necessarily need to be united for this) so that Gork and Mork can tear themselves out of the Immaterium and begin Ragnorork. I kind of believe GW will let it happen and Ghazzy will succeed but it won't be an end times for the galaxy but rather they will fight Da Big Fight with the seemingly endless Tyranids coming in. The Orks will play a meat shield role in the overall counter to the Tyranid endgame (prediction). Ghazghkull had just joined in and taken over Octaria where they cleaned out the Tyranids igniting higher levels of confidence, adolescence and pure waagh energy that a big green ripple spread across the galaxy registered by all psykers. I'm not sure if Ghazzy is working out of free will anymore, the direct hands of Gork and Mork are pretty obvious in that particular Ork. Even as another tendril of Tyranids approaches he realizes that Waaaaagh will perpetuate just as Armageddon is in a perpetual state. He's already making plans to move to another Waaaaaagh! and boost it as directed by his visions. Then the story ends.