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After effectively rounding out most of the builds possible for Orks such as Green Tide, Battlewagon Blitz, Trukk Rush, Bully Boyz, mass flash gitz and even Looted Wagon Brigade, I feel like I might be interested into trying out a *gasp* non-Ork list for once. Besides my first love that was Orks, the only other armies I've ever really had an interest in were Black Templars and Imperial Guard. Unfortunately, the Black Templars have largely become a shell of its former self from being absorbed into the vanilla dex, with having sub-par SC and their chapter tactics and few exclusive units making it feel like a crappier version of my Orky assault lists which removes Black Templars as a viable choice IMO for time being, at least until they (hopefully) get a supplement where they get the Holy Hand Grenade back as a relic.

That only leaves Imperial Guard, and given that I already have a horde army with loads of dakka and the IG core infantry range largely stinks outside of using 3rd party models or Forgeworld regiments like DKoK or Elysians (after getting a good amount of DKoK for my friend, I'd prefer to stick with plastic for conversion/ease of painting reasons), I feel that short of tanks, I'd be largely repeating the same type of army except more shooting oriented and less mobile.

Then I remembered about the Militarum Tempestus codex.

I have a pdf of it, so its not an issue of having the book, but I wanted to ask whether or not it would be worth investing into a MT army. I've always been into elite human forces in video games like Clone Commandos or Helldivers and MT seem to provide this avenue of play-style that requires a lot more thinking to use properly rather than finding the next big net-list to spam. Their army aesthetics are certainly something I enjoy, yes, even the Taurox Primes (I'm an Ork player afterall, putting on some wheels on will replace those treads lickity split) so it allows me to avoid the horrible plastic infantry range of the IG. Can anyone tell me how their playstyle is like, especially concerning the different formations they have? Are they a mini-army worth investing into?

Here's my thoughts on the army.

It's an army that is built almost entirely around Guardsmen equivalent troops that cost as much as Space Marines, and a couple of transports.

Valkyries are pretty solid transports, but aren't bringing much in the way of firepower, and Vendettas are just totally unavailable to the list.

Taurox Primes aren't any better armored than a Rhino or Razorback, and while they pack some OK weapons, they cost an absurd number of points after kit, almost as much as some Russ variants depending on weapons loadouts, and do not bring anything near that level of firepower. Likewise, they'll be priority targets for any opponent, and will be exceedingly easy to destroy.

As for the Stormtroopers/Scion units themselves, there's a huge number of problems. First, they really have to do everything in the army. AT, anti-MC, infantry killing, and objective holding. They really have to do everything.

The problem is that they're still functionally guardsmen, with almost the exact same statline barring BS4 and 4+ armor, but cost basically as much as Space Marines, while they fight, break, and die like normal putz Guardsmen.

Yes they have the ability to Deep Strike, but really what they're paying for is AP3 on their guns. While initially that sounds really cool, the fact that their weapons are Rapid Fire type, with 18" max range and 9" double tap range, their optimal operating point is *exactly* where they're easiest to kill. Likewise, the guns also being S3 means they struggle to hurt *anything* and can't put that AP3 to any sort of effective use.

So what you end up with is a lack of long range firepower, a heavy reliance on vehicles that are simply too lightly armored to survive long enough to do their job, coupled with infantry that simply do not have the statline or weapon strength to do all the things they're relied upon to do, which is basically everything.

The formations help a little, but really, the army just doesn't function well at all.

They can work somewhat ok as an *allied* force to something like a Knight contingent, but as an army of their own, they just have far too many problems.

They're definitely an allied contingent. You could probably get an IG list with MT allies to do what you're looking for while still being decent.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Here's my thoughts on the army.

It's an army that is built almost entirely around Guardsmen equivalent troops that cost as much as Space Marines, and a couple of transports.

Valkyries are pretty solid transports, but aren't bringing much in the way of firepower, and Vendettas are just totally unavailable to the list.

Taurox Primes aren't any better armored than a Rhino or Razorback, and while they pack some OK weapons, they cost an absurd number of points after kit, almost as much as some Russ variants depending on weapons loadouts, and do not bring anything near that level of firepower. Likewise, they'll be priority targets for any opponent, and will be exceedingly easy to destroy.

As for the Stormtroopers/Scion units themselves, there's a huge number of problems. First, they really have to do everything in the army. AT, anti-MC, infantry killing, and objective holding. They really have to do everything.

The problem is that they're still functionally guardsmen, with almost the exact same statline barring BS4 and 4+ armor, but cost basically as much as Space Marines, while they fight, break, and die like normal putz Guardsmen.

Yes they have the ability to Deep Strike, but really what they're paying for is AP3 on their guns. While initially that sounds really cool, the fact that their weapons are Rapid Fire type, with 18" max range and 9" double tap range, their optimal operating point is *exactly* where they're easiest to kill. Likewise, the guns also being S3 means they struggle to hurt *anything* and can't put that AP3 to any sort of effective use.

So what you end up with is a lack of long range firepower, a heavy reliance on vehicles that are simply too lightly armored to survive long enough to do their job, coupled with infantry that simply do not have the statline or weapon strength to do all the things they're relied upon to do, which is basically everything.

The formations help a little, but really, the army just doesn't function well at all.

They can work somewhat ok as an *allied* force to something like a Knight contingent, but as an army of their own, they just have far too many problems.

Thank you for your very detailed explanation. I feared this might have be an issue given that it has even less options than the Grey Knights or the recent mini-armies like Skitarii. Would going double CAD's with lots of MSU double special weapon squads help mitigate this issue of having to cover anti-tank and anti-infantry? I know that anti-flyer-wise I'd be limited anyhow so I'd try to ignore them and focus on objectives. Also first blood would be a given VP with their fragility, but having so many squads would at least create a decent amount of unit saturation to soak up over-kill units like HYMP Broadsides.

You're honestly better off using the DKOK Assault Brigade list for that sort of approach - "Grenadiers" are Stormtroopers minus deep strike available as troops (with "Storm Chimera" transports - Autocannon, Extra Armour Chimeras for 75 points), but with most of the "fixings" of the Imperial Guard to draw on, minus much air power unfortunately.

You don't need to use DKOK models for them, of course, but you'll have more fun and have more options than going that route. Counts-as D-99 are also a more viable, elite non-SM force with extensive air assets, rather than the ground assets of the Korps with more funky rules and unique, super high damage output models with limited durability requiring cleverness.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
You're honestly better off using the DKOK Assault Brigade list for that sort of approach - "Grenadiers" are Stormtroopers minus deep strike available as troops (with "Storm Chimera" transports - Autocannon, Extra Armour Chimeras for 75 points), but with most of the "fixings" of the Imperial Guard to draw on, minus much air power unfortunately.

You don't need to use DKOK models for them, of course, but you'll have more fun and have more options than going that route. Counts-as D-99 are also a more viable, elite non-SM force with extensive air assets, rather than the ground assets of the Korps with more funky rules and unique, super high damage output models with limited durability requiring cleverness.

Hm, I was considering the D-99, since they were the next closest thing. I guess counts-as FW armies with the Tempestus models might be better than just playing them as is straight from the Tempestus codex. I never expected them to be a stellar army regarding competitiveness (my meta isn't anywhere near tournament level) but I was hoping to see whether or not people have been able to make it work. Alas, it seems FW is the answer to a lot of armies right now I suppose.

A double-cad, mass MSU special-weapon spam army might work against some opponents, basically functioning like a 3E/4E IG Drop Troop army. In a 2k list you could probably get ~100 bodies on the board with 40 special weapons, but there's still a very large number of hard-counters out there and you'd be at the mercy of reserve rolls.

The DKoK Assault Brigade list is a better option. It's not a stellar list, but does fill some of the gaps, you don't have to worry about morale as much (immune to 25% casualty tests) and there's lots of solid support firepower.

Also, the plastic Scions are more expensive than the DKoK Grenadiers are in terms of purchasing cost surprisingly (FW Grenadiers are 39 UKP for 10, Scions are 21 UKP for 5)

 Vaktathi wrote:
A double-cad, mass MSU special-weapon spam army might work against some opponents, basically functioning like a 3E/4E IG Drop Troop army. In a 2k list you could probably get ~100 bodies on the board with 40 special weapons, but there's still a very large number of hard-counters out there and you'd be at the mercy of reserve rolls.

The DKoK Assault Brigade list is a better option. It's not a stellar list, but does fill some of the gaps, you don't have to worry about morale as much (immune to 25% casualty tests) and there's lots of solid support firepower.

Also, the plastic Scions are more expensive than the DKoK Grenadiers are in terms of purchasing cost surprisingly.

I've been luckily able to mitigate the start-up cost with a very generous discount from a local retailer of mine so thankfully its cheaper than the Grenadiers despite GW's horrid pricing. Plus, as much as I love the Death Korps models, one major weakness of resin is the fiddly bits of the models not holding up too well against heat or being put away in cases, especially their lasguns. Plus, being able to have special weapons in every kit without having to buy it separately is really nice.

One thing I did like a lot that I wish they capitalized a bit more was new things like the hotshot-volley gun. If they had made the hotshot lasgun assault 3 18" and the volley gun assault 4 it would legitimately feel like a very scary anti-elite force.

Yeah,. I've always wanted a hotshot lasgun that was assault 3 18" going back to 4E even when they didn't have AP3, they could bump the price down and make an effective "stormtrooper" unit.

Alas, they haven't done so. The Skitarii Vanguard are pretty much exactly what I've always wanted out of IG Stormtroopers. They get a bump in leadership, have Assault 3 18" guns (with a neat "to-wound roll of 6 causes two wounds" rule), and a couple extra special rules, at an entirely reasonable points cost.

I personnaly have a 1000 points army of Scions. For small battles of 500 to 1000, they operate pretty well and cope with their weakness (high price, low endurence and almost no choice in unit selection). Scions are a precision army. Unlike classical glass hammer forces, you don't pack a powerful punch, but you have the option with orders, formation and special weapon selection to tailor each squad to destroy almost any target. It requires a good deal of experience with deep strike and support unit and a bit of luck to pull out, but it is, in my opinion, a very nice style of play that's very different from orks (which I also play).

I must admit that the recent Skitarii army seems to have all the tools and feel that a Scion army could have hoped for and seems to even be usable for standard games of 1500 points where firepower gets more intense. I wouldn't dismiss Scions thow. They still have nice models (even the Taurox Prime can look could if you paint it like a «realistical» war vehicule)

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah,. I've always wanted a hotshot lasgun that was assault 3 18" going back to 4E even when they didn't have AP3, they could bump the price down and make an effective "stormtrooper" unit.

Alas, they haven't done so. The Skitarii Vanguard are pretty much exactly what I've always wanted out of IG Stormtroopers. They get a bump in leadership, have Assault 3 18" guns (with a neat "to-wound roll of 6 causes two wounds" rule), and a couple extra special rules, at an entirely reasonable points cost.

Indeed. If it wasn't for the fact that I already run a Mek-heavy walker wall, I'd be really tempted to go for an Adeptus Mechanicus force. It really sucks that the normal human forces of the Imperium are getting increasingly marginalized, ironic given that IG are the principal arms force of the Imperium and even Sisters of Battle are fairly prominent in a lot of battles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:
I personnaly have a 1000 points army of Scions. For small battles of 500 to 1000, they operate pretty well and cope with their weakness (high price, low endurence and almost no choice in unit selection). Scions are a precision army. Unlike classical glass hammer forces, you don't pack a powerful punch, but you have the option with orders, formation and special weapon selection to tailor each squad to destroy almost any target. It requires a good deal of experience with deep strike and support unit and a bit of luck to pull out, but it is, in my opinion, a very nice style of play that's very different from orks (which I also play).

I must admit that the recent Skitarii army seems to have all the tools and feel that a Scion army could have hoped for and seems to even be usable for standard games of 1500 points where firepower gets more intense. I wouldn't dismiss Scions thow. They still have nice models (even the Taurox Prime can look could if you paint it like a «realistical» war vehicule)

Would the most optimal game level be around 750-1000 points then? I wasn't intending this army to go over to a huge degree anyhow, what kinds of armies have you found them to be most successful against?

I have a fair amount of experience playing Militarum Tempestus, and they are definitely a fun army to play, especially if you like a challenge. They are not good for beginners as you have to work hard to get the army playable at a competitive scene, but for those who are experienced, they are perfectly fine, but can be a little tricky.

One of the biggest downsides is the cost of the regular troops, while not TOO overpriced, they don't pack much punch or have that much durability for their points cost, and are only really any good at all against MEQ's or maybe Tau equivalents, anything else, guardsmen are better against and less than half the cost. As a delivery unit for plasma/melta, the scions find a niche where they work better, but quickly become expensive glass hammers. Volley guns are also terrifying for MEQ's.

Their support is also mediocre, valkyries being a solid choice, and taurox primes packing a decent amount of firepower, but costing an arm and a leg, and being squishy as heck. They don't get anything else but this.

The upside to the army is that they have a really interesting play-style (I have heard it's similar to dark eldar, but i have little experience with dark eldar, so i cant vouch for that), much unlike the other imperial armies, and where careful thought is needed and pays off, and while not excelling in any area, they dont stumble too badly in any area either, so in the right hands can be effective.

TL;DR Scions are fun, but can be tricky and require a lot of thought put into the army and game itself, more so than other armies.

I would say that 750 pts is indeed where they shine the most if you want to make an exclusively Scions army. At that point range, having access to just four unit types is not a problem and you will not see huge combat monster like wraithknights and riptides in large numbers. It's just what you need to field either of their formation (my favorite is by far the ground one).

I have been most succesful against Craftworld Eldars with them. AP 3 guns are very good against Aspect Warriors and the fact that they only have T 3 makes those shot count for a lot. The ability to deep strike and access to fast vehicules allows you to remain in the fight in terms of mobility. Of course Wave Serpent spam can be problematic, but at low point range it's not has bad. I also faired pretty well against nidzilla kind of army (Flying monsters can be a pain thought). They are suprisingly good against guard blobs and termagaunt spams with the help of grenade launchers (cheap, overlooked and really good) an gatling canons. In maelstrom they can prove to be unpredictable and great for objectives grab.

At 750 points, what does MT do if they face two Knights?

Thank you for all the replies! It's good to hear that Scions aren't too disadvantaged with regards to being an army by itself. I've been winning a little too consistently with my Orks anyhow against the less experienced players in my group and it would be a nice change of pace to try and use a more challenging army to play against them and show that you can still win with a relatively weak if you use it tactically.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
At 750 points, what does MT do if they face two Knights?

Probably deep strike meltas, with MTC they are pretty solid even when landing in terrain and the Knight's shields can only cover so many angles. There's also several orders that boost even plasma guns to give it rending.

 Grimskul wrote:

one major weakness of resin is the fiddly bits of the models not holding up too well against heat or being put away in cases, especially their lasguns. Plus, being able to have special weapons in every kit without having to buy it separately is really nice.

The Grenadiers are an exception to this, their lasguns are much larger than the guardsmen one, I've yet to break one of them, and they're the first model I bought.

The rest of what you said is completely valid, that said. There's also the ''no plasma guns/hotshot volley rifles'' issue.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

one major weakness of resin is the fiddly bits of the models not holding up too well against heat or being put away in cases, especially their lasguns. Plus, being able to have special weapons in every kit without having to buy it separately is really nice.

The Grenadiers are an exception to this, their lasguns are much larger than the guardsmen one, I've yet to break one of them, and they're the first model I bought.

The rest of what you said is completely valid, that said. There's also the ''no plasma guns/hotshot volley rifles'' issue.

That's good to hear! Grenadiers are by far one of the best DKoK sculpts short of their Commissar or their HQ Commander. I'll definitely keep them in mind as a potential purchase later on, but I'm thinking for now I'll stick with plastic. I really wish FW didn't fluff up their rules for DKoK the second time around with the Siege of Vraks update.

Its not much better than the 6th ed list.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its not much better than the 6th ed list.

Mhm, it's just reinforcing the same units you normally took from the updated 6th list. I don't know what they were thinking with the weird Gorgon detachment. The Death Rider detachment is cool, but it doesn't really emphasize the Siege aspect of the list so much. I'm surprised they haven't bothered giving combined squads for DKoK infantry squads yet, would have made more sense thematically to fit with the Gorgon detachment.

I guess FW is too focused on 30K right now to care about most projects for 40K, makes me worried when they revamp IA8 Raid on Kastorel Novem.

They actually did give DKoK combined squads in the 5E PDF update, they then took it away.

They seem determined to just make DKoK infantry really bad, because WS4 is apparently just *that* amazing

 Vaktathi wrote:
They actually did give DKoK combined squads in the 5E PDF update, they then took it away.

They seem determined to just make DKoK infantry really bad, because WS4 is apparently just *that* amazing

WS4 lets them tarpit/drown enemy in bodies when combined with Assault 2 lasguns from orders.

Problem is you can't drown them with bodies due to being more expensive than veterans....


One thing to consider though is if you want to do the Stormtrooper army as your primary, it really would be elementary to use the D-99 rules after the fact should it prove too frustrating or you want to expand beyond Valkyries and Stormtroopers - for WYSIWYG purposes most of it will be compatible, only the Hotshot Volleygun will really stand out.

Though I can agree they are often used only as allies I completely disagree that you cannot win with them running their own book. When they first came out I had a pretty sizeable army of them and was able to win some games, including against some of the then power armies (such as Eldar) more then once. Yes they are limited but its not impossible to field a Militarium Tempestus army only and not be able to win. The following is a tactical breakdown of the Scions and how I had success with them, hope this helps!

I used to have quite a sizeable army of them and found the best way to play them was a Mechanized format with lots of Taurox Primes, ill break it down:

Taurox Primes: They were only EVER kitted out in two ways, either with Autocannon and Missile Launcher or Gatling Gun and Hot Shot Volley Gun, gave them each specialized roles to play for every x2 Autocannon Taurox Primes I took 1 Gatling Taurox Prime as you can never have enough long range firepower with these guys. ALSO IMPORTANT NOTE: These guys are ALSO Fast Attack Choices! So you could even take a few more as dedicated fire support platforms if you so wished.

Scion Command Squads: I often took a minimum of x3 of these bad boys (so x2 CAD Detachments) for Orders and access to x4 Special Weapons which were almost always Plasma or Hot Shot Volley guns. Thanks to the "Twin Linked" Order it enabled me to get the most out of the Plasma Guns in particular (helps against overheat) and made sure whatever they were shooting at went down.

Scion Squads: Another rule I had, for every Squad with Melta Guns I only ever took them x5 man strong, they are anti-armor so putting more Hot Shot Lasgun Guys into the Squad would be a waste. These guys would either Deep Strike or be mounted in the Taurox Primes to get close to the enemy. The x10 man squads always Had Plasma just for the added strength and good rate of fire.

Valkyries: I only usually every took one and it was kitted out with Nose Lascannon, Missiles and Heavy Bolter Door Gunners to primarily be an Anti-Air vehicle.

In a game about 2000pts. I fielded around roughly 10 Taurox Primes all packed with Storm Troopers kitted out the way I listed above and was able to take it to a few tough armies. Having so many vehicles on the board creates an overwhelming number of targets to make up for their fragility, their speed means that they are generally (depending upon your opponent how fast you want to get close to them) in rapid fire range by turn 2 and pack ALOT of AP3. You want to piss of Space Marine players, play an army of these guys. With the above list I beat the following list and only ever lost 2 games with them (to Wave Serpent Eldar which I kept close to about turn 5 and gunline Tau, Pulse Rifles hurt!!):

-Wraith Eldar: The mass of AP3 Hot Shot guns overwhelmed them and since Wraiths are so expensive he could not bring as many Serpents as he wanted. Also Missile Taurox Primes brought down x2 Wraithknights in x3 Turns of shooting supported by Command Squads with Twin Linked Plasma Guns

-Space Marines, Multiple: As mentioned above these guys will WRECK Space Marines, especially if you get into Rapid Fire range. The only thing I really struggled against was a Sentinels of Terra player with x3 Squads of Grav Centrions, however the trick was to get as close to them as possible and shield the Command Squad/Scion Squads with Plasma Guns long enough to get them in range.

-Tau: This MSU format really helps deal with Tau armies, especially those that rely way to much on Marker Lights. Blow up a few Taurox Primes? That's okay I have more where that came from and I if I got the first turn Ill already be in your grill to do damage. Even against Dreaded Riptide Spam how scary they are is severely limited due to target saturation. Ironically the greatest challenge with Tau I MASSED Fire Warriors with an Ethereal, being Strength 5 they did a lot of damage and though it was a bloody battle I lost just because my Primes could not handle all that S5 shooting. But that's fine, every army has weaknesses...I just whipped out my Death Korps of Krieg tank army and watched all his Fire Warriors BURN!! lol.

-Tyranids: Now Ironically I had more issues with these guys then ANY other army as MC spam is pretty difficult for us to handle. Since most of our guns are S3 they could either not hurt them or needed 6's to do anything and I barely escaped with wins the few times I played them due to target saturation. Your Special Weapons and Taurox Primes are very key against these guys so a good position with cover is optimized to keep them putting shots down field. Little bugs are no issue but the big ones definitely present a challenge.

-Orks and Necrons: I never played my army against the new Orks or Necrons so I would have to play them a few times to get an idea how to counter them.

Hope this helps guys and if you have any more questions in regards to this style of army let me know! I do plan on rebuilding this army and think its the best way to play them IMO, I just want to get other projects finished first!

 gmaleron wrote:
Though I can agree they are often used only as allies I completely disagree that you cannot win with them running their own book. When they first came out I had a pretty sizeable army of them and was able to win some games, including against some of the then power armies (such as Eldar) more then once. Yes they are limited but its not impossible to field a Militarium Tempestus army only and not be able to win. The following is a tactical breakdown of the Scions and how I had success with them, hope this helps!

I used to have quite a sizeable army of them and found the best way to play them was a Mechanized format with lots of Taurox Primes, ill break it down:

Taurox Primes: They were only EVER kitted out in two ways, either with Autocannon and Missile Launcher or Gatling Gun and Hot Shot Volley Gun, gave them each specialized roles to play for every x2 Autocannon Taurox Primes I took 1 Gatling Taurox Prime as you can never have enough long range firepower with these guys. ALSO IMPORTANT NOTE: These guys are ALSO Fast Attack Choices! So you could even take a few more as dedicated fire support platforms if you so wished.

Scion Command Squads: I often took a minimum of x3 of these bad boys (so x2 CAD Detachments) for Orders and access to x4 Special Weapons which were almost always Plasma or Hot Shot Volley guns. Thanks to the "Twin Linked" Order it enabled me to get the most out of the Plasma Guns in particular (helps against overheat) and made sure whatever they were shooting at went down.

Scion Squads: Another rule I had, for every Squad with Melta Guns I only ever took them x5 man strong, they are anti-armor so putting more Hot Shot Lasgun Guys into the Squad would be a waste. These guys would either Deep Strike or be mounted in the Taurox Primes to get close to the enemy. The x10 man squads always Had Plasma just for the added strength and good rate of fire.

Valkyries: I only usually every took one and it was kitted out with Nose Lascannon, Missiles and Heavy Bolter Door Gunners to primarily be an Anti-Air vehicle.

In a game about 2000pts. I fielded around roughly 10 Taurox Primes all packed with Storm Troopers kitted out the way I listed above and was able to take it to a few tough armies. Having so many vehicles on the board creates an overwhelming number of targets to make up for their fragility, their speed means that they are generally (depending upon your opponent how fast you want to get close to them) in rapid fire range by turn 2 and pack ALOT of AP3. You want to piss of Space Marine players, play an army of these guys. With the above list I beat the following list and only ever lost 2 games with them (to Wave Serpent Eldar which I kept close to about turn 5 and gunline Tau, Pulse Rifles hurt!!):

-Wraith Eldar: The mass of AP3 Hot Shot guns overwhelmed them and since Wraiths are so expensive he could not bring as many Serpents as he wanted. Also Missile Taurox Primes brought down x2 Wraithknights in x3 Turns of shooting supported by Command Squads with Twin Linked Plasma Guns

-Space Marines, Multiple: As mentioned above these guys will WRECK Space Marines, especially if you get into Rapid Fire range. The only thing I really struggled against was a Sentinels of Terra player with x3 Squads of Grav Centrions, however the trick was to get as close to them as possible and shield the Command Squad/Scion Squads with Plasma Guns long enough to get them in range.

-Tau: This MSU format really helps deal with Tau armies, especially those that rely way to much on Marker Lights. Blow up a few Taurox Primes? That's okay I have more where that came from and I if I got the first turn Ill already be in your grill to do damage. Even against Dreaded Riptide Spam how scary they are is severely limited due to target saturation. Ironically the greatest challenge with Tau I MASSED Fire Warriors with an Ethereal, being Strength 5 they did a lot of damage and though it was a bloody battle I lost just because my Primes could not handle all that S5 shooting. But that's fine, every army has weaknesses...I just whipped out my Death Korps of Krieg tank army and watched all his Fire Warriors BURN!! lol.

-Tyranids: Now Ironically I had more issues with these guys then ANY other army as MC spam is pretty difficult for us to handle. Since most of our guns are S3 they could either not hurt them or needed 6's to do anything and I barely escaped with wins the few times I played them due to target saturation. Your Special Weapons and Taurox Primes are very key against these guys so a good position with cover is optimized to keep them putting shots down field. Little bugs are no issue but the big ones definitely present a challenge.

-Orks and Necrons: I never played my army against the new Orks or Necrons so I would have to play them a few times to get an idea how to counter them.

Hope this helps guys and if you have any more questions in regards to this style of army let me know! I do plan on rebuilding this army and think its the best way to play them IMO, I just want to get other projects finished first!

I'd really like to see some batreps of your games with them.

As a footslogging ork player, i can tell that fast msu - no matter the army - can be quite effective against us in point-games. Realistically, you can't hope to kill orkses as you simply lack weight of fire to do it. On the other hand, foot orkses are not overly shooty themselves and killing many vehicles from afar will take time.

Use surgical strikes against orky backlines - there's really no use in dropping just behind a blob even with a full squad as you're gona kill...how many? 5-10 boyz. That's it. 30-60 pt of troops. But when you drop in the backfield and shoot off a bunch of grot gunners or lootas and when the rest of the boyz are allready half the way across the board, it's very tempting to an ork to just leave stuff as is and continue rushing forward.

Mech orks are another story. They're crazy fast and will be in your face turn 2. Not completely sure how could you counter a speedy assault msu list that will simply deny you ground and controle more points.

Going to be rebuilding the army here shortly but using the Elysian Drop Troop models. Not only can I double dip with them but I like the True Scale of the models better then the Scions, sorry regular guys should not be the size of Space Marines!

 Ashiraya wrote:
At 750 points, what does MT do if they face two Knights?

You'd have probably 3x AC/ML Taurox Primes, 4x TL Melta, and 4x TL Plasma. Given enough concentration of force, killing the Knights is not an impossible task. You'd also have 2 other squads to drop on objectives or run interference. Could be worse.

There are probably worse mismatches for MT.

I won vs foot orks pretty handily the first time I played, and I had forgotten my codex so I didn't use orders >.>

Admitedly, I had an awesome WL trait (reroll reserves), but I got very lucky with my scatter and whatnot, and all the squads landed near their intended targets and did their job (except the melta squad, who failed horribly)

 Vaktathi wrote:
They actually did give DKoK combined squads in the 5E PDF update, they then took it away.

They seem determined to just make DKoK infantry really bad, because WS4 is apparently just *that* amazing

A DKoK and MT allied force! Someone do it!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
They actually did give DKoK combined squads in the 5E PDF update, they then took it away.

They seem determined to just make DKoK infantry really bad, because WS4 is apparently just *that* amazing

A DKoK and MT allied force! Someone do it!

You could just run an Assault Brigade out of IA12 and get Scion equivalent units as troops already

I think it's funny that folks are already trying to figure out how to squeeze Skitarii Vanguard Plasmas into Pods when MT Scions can already do it with much less hassle.

Granted MT have fewer Plasma Shots and won't have Inertial Guidance but they'll be cheaper without the 'allied tax' that Vanguards will incur.

 KiloFiX wrote:
I think it's funny that folks are already trying to figure out how to squeeze Skitarii Vanguard Plasmas into Pods when MT Scions can already do it with much less hassle.

Granted MT have fewer Plasma Shots and won't have Inertial Guidance but they'll be cheaper without the 'allied tax' that Vanguards will incur.

Drop Pods are much more accurate/safe in terms of DS'ing plus you get an AV12 scoring tower, the Skitarii are individually cheaper and more effective, and you can get more than double the number of plasma shots from a full Skitarii unit that you can from a Scion unit. More expensive yes, but you get a whole lot more for that investment than you do out of a similar investment in just Scions unfortunately :(

Given that their Force Org is just 2 Troops min, you can just take the two Skitarii units and put them in drop pods and be done with it.