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Purifigatornators (mix of Purifiers, Purgation teams and Terminators)

Identical to Terminator teams but with the following exceptions:
Mastery level 2
Knows the power 'Kamehameha' (WIP)

Witchfire Range 8" WC3 S8 Ap2 Armourbane
The number of shots fired equals the number of models in this unit that know this power.
For example, a 5-man squad would fire 5 shots off with this power.

Role:
This squad is a close-range anti-armour unit that fits the Grey Knight style of getting in close and is intended as he go-to anti-tank unit (rather than resorting to Dreadknight spam or allies).

This unit will be a Heavy Support option and will cost X points.


What do you think? Does this fill its intended role?
How many points should they cost and do you have any ideas of names for the unit and power?

How about Heralds of Judgement for the squad name, and Gaze of the Emperor for the power?


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And make the power WC 2 not 3 otherwise you'll rarely be able to cast it.

Or how about just no, because the unit is terrible.

The psychic power being such a short range means that the squad must DS in order to get into range in a timely fashion. Given that minimum squad size is set as 5 man, and they're equipped with TDA... that's a big footprint for the unit. Have fun with mishaps, I guess?

Not only that, but with AP2, you're reduced to fishing for 6s or trying to hull things out- with a minimum squad, you're looking at ~3.34 hits, call it about 50/50 to pen/glance AV14, so ~1.67 HPs removed and probably a penetrating hit.

At least meltacide units have the decency to sport AP1 weapons and be cheap.

Let's also not forget that WC3 is going to suck WC like no tomorrow- in order to cast, you're looking at 6 WC to do so successfully, and that's without considering DtW. Also, at that amount of WC... you're pretty much going to auto-Perils your dudes. Have fun killing your own guys with mindbullets too!

A regular squad of GKTs costs 165 points, and pays 33 ppm for more mans. Your proposed squad will cost at least as much- if not more. What makes meltacide work is when you use cheap units. Let's consider a small selection of meltacide units:

CSM Termicide: 112 points
3x One-Use Melta shots, 3x T4/1W/2+/5++ bodies

IG Tempestus Scions: 90 points
2x Meltaguns, 5x T3/1W/4+ bodies with MTC

SM Sternguard: 205 points
5x One-Use Melta shots, 5 T4/1W/3+ bodies, requires a Drop Pod

SM Pod 'Naught: 135 points
1x Multimeta, 1x 12/12/10 3HP Walker chassis, requires a Pod

DE Scourges: 120 points
either 4x Heat Lances (18" Lance+Melta) -OR- 4x Haywire Blasters (24" Haywire); can't DS; 5x T3/1W/4+/6++ bodies

Tau Crisis Meltacide: 57 points
1x TL Fusion Blaster, 1x Fusion Blaster, can JSJ, 1x T4/2W/3+ body; can add additional members @ 57 ppm for paired Fusion (with one being TL'd)

Straight off we see that Meltacide Sternguard don't work- they're simply too expensive. Back in 5th they could pull it off, in no small part due to the fact that Sternguard Combis were only 5 points a pop. A podded MM Dread also doesn't work- it's a single MM shot, and quite frankly the odds to blow something up with just one AP1 shot simply isn't that great. DE Scourges can't DS in, and so technically cannot pull off suicide melta. Scions, CSM Termicide, and Crisis Meltacide all work pretty well because of just how cheap they are- a solo Crisis suit with the mentioned loadout costs 57 points- the cheapest option by far; Scions cost ~50% more, while Termicide is about twice as much!

For 114 points you can do a pair of Meltacide Crisis Suits, giving you 4 18" range melta shots, 2 of which are TL'd. That's way better than Termicide or Scions or any of the mentioned options- and it's still a terrible option. Suicide Melta doesn't work nearly as well as it used to. Way back in 5th it worked because if you could get a penetrating hit with a meltagun, you had a 50/50 shot of making a vehicle go sky high. Mathematically speaking, you were very nearly guaranteed a kill with 3x BS4 Meltaguns.

Your proposal isn't even AP2, which means it's going to rely on hulling things out- fishing for 6s is simply too unreliable to bet on.

Also, let me just say that GKs can't really Dreadnought "spam". With 3 Elites slots- 4 if you use an NSF- and considering how amazing and badass Purifiers are, you're probably looking at maybe 2 Dreads. And Rifleman Dreads are the best loadout you're going to be able to manage, realistically- and 4 TL S7/AP4 shots isn't really that scary, especially not on something that can only move 6" per turn.

You do realise its 5 s8 armourbane shots right? Your not fishing for 6s. Its actually kinda overkill.


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Plus sits its a psychic power they can still shoot whatever weapons they want to in the shooting phase.




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Increase Range to 18" and you can DS safely.
Increase to AP1 or S9 and reduce to WC2.
Now it will actually do the job your asking it to do.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
You do realise its 5 s8 armourbane shots right? Your not fishing for 6s. Its actually kinda overkill.


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Plus sits its a psychic power they can still shoot whatever weapons they want to in the shooting phase.




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Increase Range to 18" and you can DS safely.
Increase to AP1 or S9 and reduce to WC2.
Now it will actually do the job your asking it to do.

Do you understand math? Here, have some:
That should demonstrate that yes, the proposal sucks, and yes, you're reduced to fishing for 6s.

Just making it AP1 is also not going to help. Part of what makes melta good is that it's AP1. Part of what made melta the most amazing thing ever in 5th Ed was that AP1 was a 50/50 chance to destroy a vehicle outright- it's literally the case that you can nearly guarantee a dead vehicle with 3 BS4 Meltaguns using the 5th Ed vehicle damage chart.

The current chart does not allow for that anymore- you've got good chances to do a lot of damage, but no where near "blow it sky high". And 5 S8/AP2 Armorbane shots isn't going to do much.

The proposed unit+power combination is basically a very fancy, psychic-powered suicide melta unit. The problem is that it can't do it. What makes "meltacide" work is that the melta unit is cheap. Even if this unit was costed exactly the same as GKTs, it's 165 points before upgrades. Upgrades like a Hammer and Psycannon, so that you can get some AP2 melee and a more-better AC. And sure, you can pump Psycannon shots into whatever you used your mindbullets on. The only problem is that S7+Rending isn't super awesome at penetrating armor- especially heavy armor.

And that just makes the unit more expensive- probably around 200 points for a GKT squad with a Hammer+Psycannon. And quite frankly, when you're looking at a minimum pricetag of 165 points, you're going to invest more into them, because that's not going to work as a throwaway suicide squad- it's too expensive.

I looked at the math after I said they were fine..... then I started making a few suggestions to make them better.
So here are MY suggesstions:

Gaze of the Emperor Witchfire, WC2- S9 Ap1- range 18" Assault 5, Armorbane

Heralds of Judgement- 195pts (5 Heralds)
WS 4 BS 4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A 2 Ld9 sv3+

Wargear: Power Armor, Bolter, Special Ammunition

Relentless, accurate deepstrike*, Deepstrike, Brotherhood of Psykers Mastery Lvl2

May take up to 2 Heavy weapons.

Accurate Deepstrike - models with this rule deepstrike using 1 d6 for scatter

Heralds of the Emperor know the Gaze of the Emperor power.
Edited because I forgot to give them Brotherhood of Psykers

Why a bolter instead of a stormbolter? Why no Force weapons? Why SIA? Why no explicit DS rule (you've given them a rule that provides more accurate DS, but not the actual DS rule; technically, this means that they cannot DS in- though I'm sure that this is just a minor oversight).

Why give them Narthecium access? Why do they get a veteran-grade profile?

Also, why do we need this? Merely fixing the existing GK heavy weapon options would go a long way toward fixing the issues in the GK army- introducing a new unit, and a new psychic power (where is that power going to go on the Sanctic tree?), seems like it's an overly complicated solution to a problem that is already very complicated.

You guys do know there already is an anti-tank psychic power, right? It's called molten beam.

WC 2 12" range, S8 AP1 Melta, assault 1.

If we go off of the OP idea, I'd say it'd be acceptable to drop it down to WC 2 instead of 3, and get rid of the rule about getting more shots depending on models in the unit. This isn't how brotherhood of psykers works.... you don't see a squad of 10 purifiers shooting 10 cleansing flames.

As for DoomShakaLaka's idea of:

WC2 18" range, S9 AP1 armorbane..... with assault 5?

What even is that!? Even if we go off the base stats of the power with a single shot, it should be WC3 since it has better range, strength, and armorbane is better.

And now, what if we suddenly give this power, that could be cast by a single model, assault 5? Sure.... if it costs WC 10 or 15. What made you think it would be remotely reasonable to give any unit in the game a 5 shot turbo-melta, that they use in addition to all of their other special wargear?

I mean, just looking at all the rules of this squad.... Let's start off that this unit is only 5 points more expensive than a squad of purifiers. Purifiers have the same stat line, but for 5 points you get:
--"special ammunition" (are we talking the old psychic ammo or sternguard ammo?)
--relentless (for no good reason)
--accurate deepstrike.... why? Paladins don't even get that
--option of a narthecium?

They lose:
--soul blaze and cleansing flame, in exchange for a broken power

Tallying all that up, and assuming that we make this power single shot instead of assault 5 (seriously!?), this squad should be at least 175, if not 200, based on other units in the grey knight codex.

Give them the magical 5 shot kill all death laser and they're 275-300. Because 5 extra psychic "guns" that would cost 20 points apiece, and even a single model is capable of using said ability.

To Whiskey: What is SIA?

They can have stormbolters instead of bolters sure.
I'll add in the option to upgrade to Force weapons.( although they are going to probably have to pick between force or their anti-tank power.

Will add in Deepstrike, sorry I forgot to add it. I do dumb stuff sometimes especially when writing something on the spot.

The power will be unit specific. So Draigo will not be shooting assault 5 melta guns anytime soon.

To Kingbobbito:
The focus was on making a suicide unit with a power that will one shot kill a tank. The point from Whiskey is that you need numerous shots to reliably hull out or even explode a tank in one volley. An assault 5 pseudo-melta shot is what I gave them to let them do their job effectively.
If you change it to WC3 you'll probably peril while trying to fire the stupid thing. Up to you what you want to do with it.


Molten beam is a terrible power, and is a terrible way to base the new power off of IMO. A one shot melta gun costs WC2....Are you serious? A combi-melta cost 10pts and you can't deny the witch on that! There is a reason pyromancy is the WORST psychic table you know.

So in recap: In order to make the power effective we make it molten beam X5. You could even change the powers strength, range, and armourbane to the melta gun profile again and it would more than likely still do the job that it was designed to.

How about this: Since 5 Combi-meltas would cost 50pts to put on a unit we increase the unit cost to from 130-185 (55pts). Remember Deny the Witch can stop it, and it will likely draw enough attention to get itself killed before it can get in range of a second target.

Special issue ammuniton was sternguard ammo not the psyker ammo you mentioned. Already factored this into the cost.

Relentless was for them to be able to fire any other Heavy Weapons they have at full Bs on the move. increase from 185-195 to compensate for this.

Accurate Deepstrike is NEEDED on a unit that is trying to get close enough to enemy vehicles to hit them with their psychic death glare(tm)* and actually kill the thing they were designed to kill.

Narthecium is unneeded, got bored and started throwing options in. Plus I was under the impression that it was a GK "thing". <remove>

*patent pending


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Anyways, I am just brainstorming ideas here for everybody. Trying to see if its what SGT pozy was looking for.

True, molten beam would make more sense if it was WC 1 (if that was the only change made to it it'd be at least reasonably good). But keep in mind the power you suggested has better everything stats wise.

Also, while you can make the comparison to combi-meltas, you need to remember that this power is in no way one use only. Oh, I misjudged how much stuff had to shoot you, 1 guy survived? That single marine can now cast the power a second time. Even if you give the guys melta guns instead of combi-meltas, you don't get to shoot all 5 melta guns if only one guy is left.

If accurate deepstrike is, as you say, NEEDED, then why doesn't a single other deep striking unit get it (unless they have a 200 point character in there that gives you the ability)? Melta vets need to land within 6" of a tank to do anything meaningful. These guys can land 18" away from one and still use their power to better effect than 5 melta guns. Assault terminators need to land close enough to a unit that they'll get a guaranteed charge next turn. They need to rely on teleport homers, which costs adding a whole other squad.

You need to look at what other stuff in the game already gets and try to make it different but comparable. I like the idea of adding some more anti-tank to GK, but this is better than any comparable unit by a lot.


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Now if it was a slightly more complex rule, something along the lines of 1 shot per 2 models, so that it loses power as the unit loses power? And maybe drop the profile back to match melta guns, because the whole idea of this is that it simulates a melta drop.

So how about this:
WC 2, S8 ap1 assault1, willpower*

Willpower- for every 2 models using this power( round up) you generate a shot with the same profile as the original.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
To Whiskey: What is SIA?

SIA: Special Issue Ammunition; IE, all the specialty bullets that Sternguard get.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
To Kingbobbito:
The focus was on making a suicide unit with a power that will one shot kill a tank. The point from Whiskey is that you need numerous shots to reliably hull out or even explode a tank in one volley. An assault 5 pseudo-melta shot is what I gave them to let them do their job effectively.
If you change it to WC3 you'll probably peril while trying to fire the stupid thing. Up to you what you want to do with it.

The point Bobbito made is that they'll need to cost around 175+ points for 5 dudes. That's not a suicide squad.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Molten beam is a terrible power, and is a terrible way to base the new power off of IMO. A one shot melta gun costs WC2....Are you serious? A combi-melta cost 10pts and you can't deny the witch on that! There is a reason pyromancy is the WORST psychic table you know.

A Combi-Melta at 10 points is positively gak. CSM Termie have the best combis, because they all get cheap combis. Remember that Combi-Weapons are One-Use Only weapons- you get one shot, and if you whiff it then you basically wasted 10 points. Molten Beam may be a terrible power, but it at least can be cast every single turn.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Anyways, I am just brainstorming ideas here for everybody. Trying to see if its what SGT pozy was looking for.

Pozy doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, in part because he isn't a GK player but mostly because he doesn't seem to understand that meltacide has to be cheap in order to work.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
So how about this:
WC 2, S8 ap1 assault1, willpower*

Willpower- for every 2 models using this power( round up) you generate a shot with the same profile as the original.

How about we just fix the GK special weapons so that we don't have to muck about with new units and psychic powers that will just need to be rebuilt from the ground up again when the GK specials are finally fixed.

Even when meltacide is cheap, it's not that great in 7th except against VERY expensive targets. Land Raider minimum. Knights preferred. Lacking these targets, it's not worth it.

That's true- this isn't 5th edition after all, when a Meltagun that got a pen had a 50/50 chance to outright torch a vehicle.

doesn't have a clue what he's talking about,

can we avoid making rude and inflammatory comments like this. It adds nothing to the discussion and will at best rile other posters and therefore derail the thread.

Yeah, I have to agree. Trying to make this to be effective while not being op is kinda beating a dead horse.... From someone else's ranch.
I'm done messing with it right now.
You made some good points whiskey, and reminded me why I don't usually tank suicide sternguard except when fighting imperial knights.