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Soooooo, I totally know how Eldar players felt when their codex came out. I was playing against my girlfriend last night with my Necrons, and she had CSM. I was playing just some footslog troops, Nightbringer, Deceiver, Deathmarks, and the Canoptek Harvest. I've only used the harvest one other time out of the 13 or so games I've played, so I figured I'd give it a shot again, just to feel the hype, so to speak. She was running Fabius Bile with some marines, another squad of marines (enhanced warriors), Some bikes, the Deep Striking Helbrute Formation, and some Terminators with a Sorcerer in a Land Raider. All Mark of Nurgle. I figured my list wasn't too bad, other than the Canoptek Harvest, so at first I didn't see an issue. But, I soon came to realize that I can't feel good about fielding Wraiths in any form (Harvest or not) in a casual game. Needless to say, my girlfriend (taking into account we were both rolling pretty bad most of the game) was tabled before turn 4. She dealt 2 wounds to two separate wraith models, and that was without RP. I never once rolled a RP roll for them, as they were out of range, but they still decimated about 3 of her units, and the Ctans tag-teamed everything else, while her Sorcerer and Termies were tarpitted by Warriors (The Nightbringer exploded a Helbrute that charged him, then preceeded to one shot her Land Raider, all while Gazing her Sorcerers unit that was stuck in). So, it was not a fun game, mainly from my side. My girlfriend, surprisingly enough, thinks that Necrons should be as powerful as they are, because she thinks they fit their fluff! So she wasn't even mad. But I feel I have to personally gimp myself. Either by not bringing Wraiths (in general), or by not bringing the Decurion. Then again, I even tried the latter a few weeks ago, and still did well against her. So I feel I should shelve my Wraiths, because they suck the fun out for everyone. My Eldar friend even purposely stays away from fielding Serpents, as he thinks their cheesy, but in our latest game (4000 points, 2v2, Dark Eldar/Eldar vs. Necrons/CSM) he brought as much cheese as he owned (Deep Striking Webway portal Fire Dragons in a Serpent, Wraithknight, more Serpents, ext), and was still swiftly obliterated. So, the balance has switched, and I feel I can't bring things in my codex.

I feel bad for ever saying my Eldar friend was cheesy, and completely understand/deserve the hate from others. Necrons, what you guys doin. Fo real....

Yeah, that's how I felt after a few games with the current book of eldar. As a result, I usually limit myself to one or two serpents, take lances instead of scatters on said serpents, or simply choose not to fire the shield at all.

But! There is an upside to having a really strong codex. Not taking more "traditional" units (or at least not as many of them) frees you up to try out different options. The current eldar codex has very few poor choices, so I can make pretty much any unit I want work. I don't even have to feel awkward taking Baharroth these days!

Maybe you can have fun taking something you normally don't, like your newly not-terrible melee units!

Of all the things that pester me about new necrons, I think regular old warriors/immortals are the most frustrating. Not because they're overly powerful, but because their ability to tarpit everything reminds me that RP is no loner as interesting to interact with as it was when focus-firing 'cron squads away or sweeping them out of combat was a thing.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Yeah, that's how I felt after a few games with the current book of eldar. As a result, I usually limit myself to one or two serpents, take lances instead of scatters on said serpents, or simply choose not to fire the shield at all.

But! There is an upside to having a really strong codex. Not taking more "traditional" units (or at least not as many of them) frees you up to try out different options. The current eldar codex has very few poor choices, so I can make pretty much any unit I want work. I don't even have to feel awkward taking Baharroth these days!

Maybe you can have fun taking something you normally don't, like your newly not-terrible melee units!

Of all the things that pester me about new necrons, I think regular old warriors/immortals are the most frustrating. Not because they're overly powerful, but because their ability to tarpit everything reminds me that RP is no loner as interesting to interact with as it was when focus-firing 'cron squads away or sweeping them out of combat was a thing.

Well, as I stated, I've only used Wraiths twice now. Every other list I've played to the fluff as much as possible. I've used Flayed Ones, Lychguard, and even Praetorians a bunch of times, because they're great fun. And I've tried everything else out in the codex so far, and they've all done well for me. I just feel Wraiths are a bit too over the top, at least in a friendly game.

Wild prediction with no basis in reality -- Eldar will get something in their toolbox like a formation special rule or Relic that will be ridiculously effective against Necron (like, prevents RP rolls).

Why? Well, they are ancient enemies, and the Eldar did win, once... and it's not like the Necron figured anything out while they were sleeping Some smart fella went into the Black Library and said, "hmmmm... this worked real well last time!"

Regarding Necron/Eldar fluff... I never really understood the sleepy thing. First, what did the Necron hope for? That they'd go to sleep, wake up, and the Eldar would be gone? I mean, yeah, that happened, but they weren't exactly planning on the whole Chaos/Fall thing. Second, why didn't the Eldar finish the job and kill 'em off while they slept? Third, why didn't anyone else find them on those tomb worlds in those millions of years?

 Talys wrote:
Wild prediction with no basis in reality -- Eldar will get something in their toolbox like a formation special rule or Relic that will be ridiculously effective against Necron (like, prevents RP rolls).

Why? Well, they are ancient enemies, and the Eldar did win, once... and it's not like the Necron figured anything out while they were sleeping Some smart fella went into the Black Library and said, "hmmmm... this worked real well last time!"

Regarding Necron/Eldar fluff... I never really understood the sleepy thing. First, what did the Necron hope for? That they'd go to sleep, wake up, and the Eldar would be gone? I mean, yeah, that happened, but they weren't exactly planning on the whole Chaos/Fall thing. Second, why didn't the Eldar finish the job and kill 'em off while they slept? Third, why didn't anyone else find them on those tomb worlds in those millions of years?

To clarify, Eldar didn't "win" when the Necrons went to sleep. If I remember correctly, The Silent King felt that to continue to wage war in a ravaged galaxy (after they killed the Old Ones and turned on the Ctan) was not a smart idea, they wanted to let the Galaxy heal itself. Plus, the Eldar were breathing down their necks, and they were weakened from the War in Heaven. So, they figured they'd go to sleep to let the Galaxy heal, and while that happened, they would hope the Eldar would die out. Then the Silent King put himself in Exile and left the known galaxy, to return one day to begin rebuilding the Necron's empire and reverse the curse of Living Metal.

 Talys wrote:
Wild prediction with no basis in reality -- Eldar will get something in their toolbox like a formation special rule or Relic that will be ridiculously effective against Necron (like, prevents RP rolls).

Why? Well, they are ancient enemies, and the Eldar did win, once... and it's not like the Necron figured anything out while they were sleeping Some smart fella went into the Black Library and said, "hmmmm... this worked real well last time!"

Regarding Necron/Eldar fluff... I never really understood the sleepy thing. First, what did the Necron hope for? That they'd go to sleep, wake up, and the Eldar would be gone? I mean, yeah, that happened, but they weren't exactly planning on the whole Chaos/Fall thing. Second, why didn't the Eldar finish the job and kill 'em off while they slept? Third, why didn't anyone else find them on those tomb worlds in those millions of years?

I could be wrong, but I thought eldar didn't take much part in the War in Heaven. It was mostly the old ones and the krork who did the heavy lifting, but it has been a long time since I've read that lore...

Didn't the necrons 'go to bed' because the universe was pretty much dead? With the enslaver plagues, the old ones dying/fleeing, and the C'tan being shattered, there wasn't much left. The eldar and orks were alive, but not exactly well and I doubt the Silent King wanted the necrons to transfer their identities into those races. So they waited while the universe 'regrew'.

As for tomb complexes not being disturbed... Remember those crazy powerful wraiths, spyders and scarabs? Those are the things protecting each tomb.

On topic, I haven't fought against the new necrons yet, but they seem very powerful from what I've read in their codex and online. I honestly feel bad for necron players, because their army fits their fluff so well now, but it must suck being picked on because the race you play happens to be powerful.

 Mumblez wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Wild prediction with no basis in reality -- Eldar will get something in their toolbox like a formation special rule or Relic that will be ridiculously effective against Necron (like, prevents RP rolls).

Why? Well, they are ancient enemies, and the Eldar did win, once... and it's not like the Necron figured anything out while they were sleeping Some smart fella went into the Black Library and said, "hmmmm... this worked real well last time!"

Regarding Necron/Eldar fluff... I never really understood the sleepy thing. First, what did the Necron hope for? That they'd go to sleep, wake up, and the Eldar would be gone? I mean, yeah, that happened, but they weren't exactly planning on the whole Chaos/Fall thing. Second, why didn't the Eldar finish the job and kill 'em off while they slept? Third, why didn't anyone else find them on those tomb worlds in those millions of years?

I could be wrong, but I thought eldar didn't take much part in the War in Heaven. It was mostly the old ones and the krork who did the heavy lifting, but it has been a long time since I've read that lore...

Didn't the necrons 'go to bed' because the universe was pretty much dead? With the enslaver plagues, the old ones dying/fleeing, and the C'tan being shattered, there wasn't much left. The eldar and orks were alive, but not exactly well and I doubt the Silent King wanted the necrons to transfer their identities into those races. So they waited while the universe 'regrew'.

As for tomb complexes not being disturbed... Remember those crazy powerful wraiths, spyders and scarabs? Those are the things protecting each tomb.

On topic, I haven't fought against the new necrons yet, but they seem very powerful from what I've read in their codex and online. I honestly feel bad for necron players, because their army fits their fluff so well now, but it must suck being picked on because the race you play happens to be powerful.

Right, on the topic of their tombs not being disturbed, there are dedicated Eldar raiding parties that hunt down Tomb worlds and destroy them. Millions of Tomb world have been destroyed/lost to the warp/failed to wake up, but there are billions more where that came from.

And also, I find your last sentence refreshing. That's what surprised me about my girlfriend. Normally, especially with the old codex, she cried "op" all the time at Necrons, now she does the same thing, but has a great appreciation for how fluffy the army is. Heck, she enjoys playing against them because of it.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Mumblez wrote:

 Talys wrote:
Wild prediction with no basis in reality -- Eldar will get something in their toolbox like a formation special rule or Relic that will be ridiculously effective against Necron (like, prevents RP rolls).

Why? Well, they are ancient enemies, and the Eldar did win, once... and it's not like the Necron figured anything out while they were sleeping Some smart fella went into the Black Library and said, "hmmmm... this worked real well last time!"

Regarding Necron/Eldar fluff... I never really understood the sleepy thing. First, what did the Necron hope for? That they'd go to sleep, wake up, and the Eldar would be gone? I mean, yeah, that happened, but they weren't exactly planning on the whole Chaos/Fall thing. Second, why didn't the Eldar finish the job and kill 'em off while they slept? Third, why didn't anyone else find them on those tomb worlds in those millions of years?

I could be wrong, but I thought eldar didn't take much part in the War in Heaven. It was mostly the old ones and the krork who did the heavy lifting, but it has been a long time since I've read that lore...

Didn't the necrons 'go to bed' because the universe was pretty much dead? With the enslaver plagues, the old ones dying/fleeing, and the C'tan being shattered, there wasn't much left. The eldar and orks were alive, but not exactly well and I doubt the Silent King wanted the necrons to transfer their identities into those races. So they waited while the universe 'regrew'.

As for tomb complexes not being disturbed... Remember those crazy powerful wraiths, spyders and scarabs? Those are the things protecting each tomb.

On topic, I haven't fought against the new necrons yet, but they seem very powerful from what I've read in their codex and online. I honestly feel bad for necron players, because their army fits their fluff so well now, but it must suck being picked on because the race you play happens to be powerful.

Right, on the topic of their tombs not being disturbed, there are dedicated Eldar raiding parties that hunt down Tomb worlds and destroy them. Millions of Tomb world have been destroyed/lost to the warp/failed to wake up, but there are billions more where that came from.

And also, I find your last sentence refreshing. That's what surprised me about my girlfriend. Normally, especially with the old codex, she cried "op" all the time at Necrons, now she does the same thing, but has a great appreciation for how fluffy the army is. Heck, she enjoys playing against them because of it.

I think the new 7th edition codexes have been really good in the fluff-to-tabletop department. I mean, orks got a new Mob Rule, which I like quite a bit and it helps with all of our units rather than just the large mobs. Plus we got 'Ere We Go!, which is awesome as well. Necrons are just as flavorful as orks, it's just the necron shtick of getting back up over and over again is better in-general than just more reliable charges for the whole army.

I'd still love to fight against the tin'eads, just to see what my boyz could do.

That's why I hate the WK so much.

Its everything that its fluff isn't.

Fast moving. Fast reacting. Mobile. Strikes hard and fast ahead of the main force.

Common.

And its OP.

Bharring wrote:
That's why I hate the WK so much.

Its everything that its fluff isn't.

Fast moving. Fast reacting. Mobile. Strikes hard and fast ahead of the main force.

Common.

And its OP.

Well, luckily if Eldar get a Decurion, hopefully the only way to be able to bring one is in a formation focused around bringing all the other wraith units. For example, 1 unit of Wraithguard, 1 unit of wraithblades, 1 wraithlord, and an optional Wraithknight slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mumblez wrote:

I think the new 7th edition codexes have been really good in the fluff-to-tabletop department. I mean, orks got a new Mob Rule, which I like quite a bit and it helps with all of our units rather than just the large mobs. Plus we got 'Ere We Go!, which is awesome as well. Necrons are just as flavorful as orks, it's just the necron shtick of getting back up over and over again is better in-general than just more reliable charges for the whole army.

I'd still love to fight against the tin'eads, just to see what my boyz could do.

I agree with the whole fluff-to-tabletop point. As much as people complain, Mob Rule fits Orks sooo well, and 'Ere We Go also does. You're right that it's just our main special rule (As we don't have many) is really, really good.

can space mharines get some decurion?

 Xenomancers wrote:
can space mharines get some decurion?

If it gets rid of Bike troops and min/maxing, keeps Chapter Tactics as fluffy as it is, and gives them a few benefits here and there, then yes. I'd be all for it.

Oddly enough, it actually makes less sense for Iyanden to have an abundance of wraith knights than other craftworlds. Making a wraith knight requires a dead and living pair of twins. Twins require a relatively large population to increase the odds of having them. Eldar reproduce slowly, so a smaller population (like Iyanden's) is unlikely to produce many twins. I mean, assuming similar twin birth rates to humans, they probably have some, but not as many. To actually create the wraith knight construct only requires a single spirit seer (theoretically) to house a single soul (the twin's) inside the construct.

So despite being a "wraith" unit, the wraithknight arguably makes less sense with Iyanden than with, say, Biel-Tan.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
can space mharines get some decurion?

If it gets rid of Bike troops and min/maxing, keeps Chapter Tactics as fluffy as it is, and gives them a few benefits here and there, then yes. I'd be all for it.

Oh! Oh! BA are already there!

But Biel-Tan would be much, much less likely to field one.

Most craftworlds are reasonable. You don't risk the damnation of your honored dead just because someone dropped a pin. Only Iyanden is that reckless.

To say nothing of tearing apart the Materium itself with their weapons.

Biel-Tan may very well have more Wraithknights, but won't field them as frequently as Iyanden anyways.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
can space mharines get some decurion?

If it gets rid of Bike troops and min/maxing, keeps Chapter Tactics as fluffy as it is, and gives them a few benefits here and there, then yes. I'd be all for it.

Oh! Oh! BA are already there!

Man, you really must hate the BA codex, huh?

No biker troops, no real min/maxing, crappy chapter tactic, and none of the SM power units. Hate is irrelevant; what I said is objectively fact. Oh, and our chief librarian isn't good enough to be Tigirius's piss boy.

Martel732 wrote:
No biker troops, no real min/maxing, crappy chapter tactic, and none of the SM power units. Hate is irrelevant; what I said is objectively fact. Oh, and our chief librarian isn't good enough to be Tigirius's piss boy.

Not having Bikers as troops is a good thing. No min/maxing is a good thing. I said keep chapter tactics as fluffy as they are. That doesn't mean they're bad. And oh darn, you don't have broken Grav Cents. Such a shame. As for the Tigurius thing, I have no idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This all doesn't take into account the fact that Space Marines are right around the corner as far as a new codex, which will hopefully bring them in linewith everything else (a.k.a. no more watch the language please Reds8n or nerfed Shield Eternal).

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No biker troops, no real min/maxing, crappy chapter tactic, and none of the SM power units. Hate is irrelevant; what I said is objectively fact. Oh, and our chief librarian isn't good enough to be Tigirius's piss boy.

Not having Bikers as troops is a good thing. No min/maxing is a good thing. I said keep chapter tactics as fluffy as they are. That doesn't mean they're bad. And oh darn, you don't have broken Grav Cents. Such a shame. As for the Tigurius thing, I have no idea.

It makes the BA codex completely inferior to the SM codex in every way, though. So BA do indeed qualify for the hypothetical decurion with no changes.


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 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No biker troops, no real min/maxing, crappy chapter tactic, and none of the SM power units. Hate is irrelevant; what I said is objectively fact. Oh, and our chief librarian isn't good enough to be Tigirius's piss boy.

Not having Bikers as troops is a good thing. No min/maxing is a good thing. I said keep chapter tactics as fluffy as they are. That doesn't mean they're bad. And oh darn, you don't have broken Grav Cents. Such a shame. As for the Tigurius thing, I have no idea.



Nerfing marines will just make Necrons more invincible. The Necron book ruined any hope for 7th ed. BA were the codex right before, and I might as well be fielding grots.

Martel732 wrote:

It makes the BA codex completely inferior to the SM codex in every way, though. So BA do indeed qualify for the hypothetical decurion with no changes.

Which might not be the case for much longer. We have no way of knowing.

Nerfing marines will just make Necrons more invincible. The Necron book ruined any hope for 7th ed. BA were the codex right before, and I might as well be fielding grots.

Necrons aren't invincible, in fact, the BA players at my store have won most of their games from what I've seen.

Fighting against Necrons is like wading through cold oatmeal, an endless, ever-replenishing ocean of cold oatmeal.

Like it should be. The cron dex is fine as is. Wraiths are the main issue, however. They're the new GW's serpent-like mistake. Crons do need sometihng fast and deadly but for what they get, wraiths should be like 60+ ppm.

Honestly, I just changed my mind. I will never feel bad for Eldar players again. Just read the rumors for the new Eldar codex.

Ehhh. I love Crons and I like their models and fluff, but some of the new ideas seem way too strong. I don't try to play all net lists, but I've brought some strong stuff against Crons and I feel like half the time I can't even touch them.

You should never feel bad for Eldar (I say as I've got this splayed out on my floor)

Seriously though, Eldar have consistently been the one army that's always at the top throughout 40k's history with the singular exception of 5th edition.

With Necrons currently? They're just resilient to the point where quite often the opponent's actions just don't mean anything, while often being able to replace some casualties they do take, and have incredible speed to boot with many units.


Also, yeah, Wraiths could be 60+ppm and still be perfectly tournament viable.

Martel732 wrote:
No biker troops, no real min/maxing, crappy chapter tactic, and none of the SM power units. Hate is irrelevant; what I said is objectively fact. Oh, and our chief librarian isn't good enough to be Tigirius's piss boy.

But that also fits the fluff. The Ultramarines are the most successful chapter of the Adeptus Astartes.

No min/maxing is precisely why BA will be my next "full collection" army The only thing that I hate more than playing against a min/max army is playing a min/max army myself And that's not for lack of models, either.

... And over half of 6th.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Honestly, I just changed my mind. I will never feel bad for Eldar players again. Just read the rumors for the new Eldar codex.

Why so? If anything, Eldar will be brought in line with the rest of the 7th edition codexes. The only thing truly broken about the Eldar codex was the Serpent Shield. The Wraithknight was undercosted for what it was, but not broken. If anything, the Wraithknight being moved to the LOW slot and becoming a gargantuan with Strength D shooting will jack up the points to beyond Imperial Knight levels. Good thing I don't own one!

As far as Necrons go, I feel the solution is a dedicated close-combat hammer, held back at friendly lines. Wraiths approaching? Counter-charge them. I've seen it done, even with Ravenwing Bikers. Necron Warriors can tarpit in CC, but with a strong enough charge and follow up they should be easily swept. And if all else fails, play to the objective.

I myself limit my Wave Serpents to just two, albeit fully kitted out. I feel that doing so has made me a better Eldar player, as its's made me appreciate the codex's excellent internal balance and how to properly utilize each unit for maximum effect.

For the OP, your GF seemed like she wasn't taking a very good list, even by CSM standards. Maybe offer to help her optimize her list for what she seems to want to accomplish on the tabletop.

Bharring wrote:
... And over half of 6th.

If we're gonna count it like that, then they weren't particularly bad in the early half of 5th either

 Talys wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No biker troops, no real min/maxing, crappy chapter tactic, and none of the SM power units. Hate is irrelevant; what I said is objectively fact. Oh, and our chief librarian isn't good enough to be Tigirius's piss boy.

But that also fits the fluff. The Ultramarines are the most successful chapter of the Adeptus Astartes.

No min/maxing is precisely why BA will be my next "full collection" army The only thing that I hate more than playing against a min/max army is playing a min/max army myself And that's not for lack of models, either.

I don't care about fluff; only balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Bharring wrote:
... And over half of 6th.

If we're gonna count it like that, then they weren't particularly bad in the early half of 5th either

Eldar won just as many tournaments at my local store as SW and BA. Only GK won more. Eldar, with a lot of skill, were still brutal in 5th. Any list with access to divination-type spells and scatter lasers is automatically a contender.