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Just a warning this is a bit of a wall of text I start with some explaination of why I'm asking and then there are several questions at the end

So I was looking up something the other day and I came across the Power of the Machine Spirit special ability. Well... a search online did not help as there are literally hundreds of pages and posts going back as far as 2010 (and probably earlier) on it with different people's ideas about how it works and I love stuff like that so after several hours or research and then finally going to get my books out myself and looking into it I thought I'd put in my two cents and see what people say. First off I thought I'd start with the relevant definitions.

PotMS - states you can fire one additional weapon at full BS then normally permitted. In addition this weapon can be fired at a different target unit then any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting.

Snap Shot - states that when you are forced to snap shot your shots are counted as being BS 1 for the purpose of these shots, it also states that snap shots can only be modified by something that specifically states they modify snap shots.

The argument I've seen on this is that PotMS doesn't SPECIFICALLY state that it modifies SS (off topic if they had listed every possible scenario that could modify SS they would probably need a lot of space and make it very hard to change things in the future). I've seen multiple people create artificial barriers for when it does and doesn't work such as when your tanks shaken vs. when you rush your tank.

I argue that you receive an additional shot at full BS regardless of the SS for two reasons.

1, The wording and order of actions of PotMS as stated "You may fire an additional weapon at full BS then normally permitted". If you could normally shoot 0 at full BS because of snap shots then your new total becomes 1 etc. I'd like to point out that obviously if your unable to fire at all then your obviously unable to fire still as it does state your firing is subject to the normal rules for shooting.

2, As I stated if they were to state on the page all the ways in which your SS BS could be affected they would be severly limiting their own growth with the game (case in point look at all the data slates we've been getting recently I may have access to them while my opponent may not and somebody would have to know the rules) as well many people would simply point to this and claim it to be a comprehensive list. I will concede that PotMS does NOT specifically state that it affects SS however as the PotMS single shot would not be a SS it should not have to be listed as per my first point.

As support of this I present a claim by a poster "bigstoney" who argues the other side of the argument and then claims to have phoned the GW hotline to receive an answer and then explaigns what he was told. www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/2t5zef/Storm_raven_questions_skies_of_fury_while_zooming/
I see no reason to doubt this as time stamps are on the page showing when he was making his posts.

At this point I assume I have made my point that regardless of SS you receive an additional shot in all cases when PotMS applies and would like to start with my questions if you disagree with my assessment please assume I'm right simply for the case of these questions. Feel free to correct my in PM or as an addendum to your posts I have no problem being wrong if you can show it.

How does PotMS interact with flyers according to the rules shots at flyers are resolved as SS which given the above would mean a single weapon could be shot at them without SS which in the case of for example the Astra Militarums Punisher tank main cannon could be as many as 20 shots. I can see the argument being made for the Hard to Hit rule which states "shots can only be resolved as snapshot's unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule". I'd like to point out two things here before proceeding if bigstoney really made that call then GW has ruled that PotMS has priority and overwrites the HtH rule also SS itself does not alter your BS simply "treats" your BS as 1. However as written I think the HtH rule overwrites PotMS as it's more specific as it states "all" shots can only be resolved as snapshots. The problem becomes at this point I believe the order of actions. During the shooting phase you declare your targets then HtH comes into effect then after all shooting PotMS does which means you get that single unmodified shot. What do you guys think here?

According to the rules each weapon on a vehicle can only be shot once, how does that interact with PotMS? If you choose not to move during the movement phase and fire all your weapons do you get to fire an additional one of your choice as per PotMS? Or are you SOL as you've already fired all your weapons? That being said how do you decide which one gets to fire an additional time? In the example above a Punisher shooting at a flyer received 20 SS shots with its main gun against a flyer then providing the player gets to pick which gun shoots he could use that same main gun to fire an additional 20 shots against that same flyer (or another unit as per PotMS) which quite frankly is horrifying (though tbh not nearly as horrifying as some flyrants I've seen).

On to easier and less complex questions!

According to the rules ordinance weapons cannot SS however I've seen several people state they can provided they do not fire blast nor template weapons. Apparently this comes into play primarily for the AM though no units come to mind. Is this true can an ordinance weapon fire SS provided it's neither a template nor a blast? Please cite references on this one guys and gals thank you.

The AM Chimera - I saw a post over on the Imperator Guides to Astra Militarum (May 2014 Astra Militarum Unit Overview part 2 - and to be fair this is where I first saw the previous question as well) the author states you can use the Chimera to shoot at 4 different targets with a single tank. I could see an argument being made for two perhaps if the Chimera in question was not a dedicated transport. How does this fellow arrive at 4 and is he right? Again please cite references guys and gals..

That's it for now thank you for your time and patience everybody. Also I will be copy pasting this post on a number of other websites to get as many outlooks as possible on the issues. If you'd like a complete list for yourself to follow along please feel free to send me a private message where I will happily provide you with a complete list Have a great night everybody and good hunting.

I have previously delved quite deeply into the PotMS debate, and am too tired to dig up my old post right now, but will point out:

Obeliske wrote:
As proof I present a claim by a poster "bigstoney" who argues the other side of the argument and then claims to have phoned the GW hotline to receive an answer and then explaigns what he was told. www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/2t5zef/Storm_raven_questions_skies_of_fury_while_zooming/
I see no reason to doubt this as time stamps are on the page showing when he was making his posts.

Getting an answer from the "GW hotline" is not a valid source on YMDC (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page - specifically rule 2. "The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Games Workshop are easily spoofed and are notorious for being inconsistent and so should not be relied on.").

Obeliske wrote:
According to the rules ordinance weapons cannot SS however I've seen several people state they can provided they do not fire blast nor template weapons. Apparently this comes into play primarily for the AM though no units come to mind. Is this true can an ordinance weapon fire SS provided it's neither a template nor a blast? Please cite references on this one guys and gals thank you.

Basic rule (page 41) - "{...} Ordnance weapons cannot fire snap shots {...}"
Advanced rule (page 73) - Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons "{...} A vehicle that moved at Cruising Speed can still Snap Shot Ordnance, but of course, cannot fire any Ordnance weapon that cannot be fired as Snap Shots."
So the advanced gives us the ability to snap a (non-blast) Ordnance, but only if we've gone Cruising, rather than being Shaken, or as a supplementary weapon traveling at Combat Speed. Nonsensical perhaps, but that's where people get the idea you can generally snap shoot with an Ordnance weapon (when it really only applies to one scenario).

Obeliske wrote:
The AM Chimera - I saw a post over on the Imperator Guides to Astra Militarum (May 2014 Astra Militarum Unit Overview part 2 - and to be fair this is where I first saw the previous question as well) the author states you can use the Chimera to shoot at 4 different targets with a single tank. I could see an argument being made for two perhaps if the Chimera in question was not a dedicated transport. How does this fellow arrive at 4 and is he right? Again please cite references guys and gals..

Not able to provide references, as I don't have that Codex, but the AM Chimera has a special rule that allows it's Lasgun arrays (or whatever they are called) to shoot at a different target to the rest of the vehicle (as they only have firing arcs to each side, being able to shoot both side weapons and the front hull-mounted weapon at the same target is unlikely). You are also able to give it Power of the Machine Spirit by means of a Techpriest Enginseer, bringing the total to 4. This has nothing to do with being Dedicated (and indeed, the unit inside can fire at a completely different 5th target.

I wouldn't try to present "some guy on the internet" as real proof that was badly worded on my part I should have said (and will edit that) as a supporting claim. My apologies.

Also thank you for the quick reply and those two questions were driving me nuts! All day I've been trying to figure them out, but have been unable to as I'm in the same boat I don't have the codex near me and was unable to check.

The reason your firing snap shots is kinda of important to this discussion. A non-fast vehicle that goes cruising speed would have 0 weapons it can fire at full BS. The PotMS would change this to 1 weapon. A vehicle with 2 weapons that went combat speed and has PotMS but lacking skyfire shooting both weapons at a Flyer will make snap shots with both weapons. This is because the the vehicle has one weapon it can fire at full BS, PotMSchanges this to 2 weapons, but PotMS does not overide the hard to hit flyer rules.

I have done a lot of reading on this topic, and have come to the conclusion that PotMS is either terrible or great.

This is because the restrictions on firing that are created in the following situations are identical;
Moving Cruising speed, Crew shaken/Stunned, Jinking, Firing Ordnance.

So if you allow PotMS to fire an extra weapon at full BS for any one of these, you must allow it for all of them. Which is not to big of a problem as all these rules, bar Jink, are Basic rules, whilst PotMS is a Special rule (allowing it to overrule).

The Hard to Hit of flyers, Says "Resolved as snap shots... unless skyfire" as opposed to all the above rules wording of "only fire snap shots" which is enough of a difference that PotMS doesn't override Hard to Hit.

Just my two cents on PotMS.

On all the forums I've found though nobody seems to answer for me the last big question remaining.



According to the rules each weapon on a vehicle can only be shot once, how does that interact with PotMS? If you choose not to move during the movement phase and fire all your weapons do you get to fire an additional one of your choice as per PotMS? Or are you SOL as you've already fired all your weapons? That being said how do you decide which one gets to fire an additional time? In the example above a Punisher shooting at a flyer received 20 SS shots with its main gun against a flyer then providing the player gets to pick which gun shoots he could use that same main gun to fire an additional 20 shots against that same flyer (or another unit as per PotMS) which quite frankly is horrifying (though tbh not nearly as horrifying as some flyrants I've seen).



At this point I believe that PotMS does not in fact overwrite HtH for the same reason I said above specific overwrites generic.



Also I thought I aught to have pointed out my chosen army is the Astra Militarum and as such all my Leman Russ tanks have the Heavy Special rule. Which states that they can't cruise nor move anything over combat speed but always count as having not moved for the purposes of firing and effects on BS. Which is why I'm asking the previous question in the first place. All my weapons (providing I'm not SS) will be able to fire at full BS most of the time and as such I'm trying to figure out if PotMS is even worth taking.

If we follow the order of operations for the way modifiers work, you are still set to Bs 1 due to the Snap Fire rule.

PotMS does not give a specific value. It states that you fire at full ballistic skill. But then the Snap Fire/Hard to Hit rules give a set value. So the equation would be (3 - 2 + 2) = 1 unless it states your bs is modified for Snap Shots. Then it would = 2 (I do not believe anything gets a higher snap shot bs in the game).

I cannot make page references right now as I do not have the brb handy.

Silyen wrote:
(I do not believe anything gets a higher snap shot bs in the game).

Tau can through use of markerlights, I believe, and that's the only way I'm aware of.

 SRSFACE wrote:

Silyen wrote:
(I do not believe anything gets a higher snap shot bs in the game).

Tau can through use of markerlights, I believe, and that's the only way I'm aware of.

Skitarii cognis weapons snap shot BS 2. And it's very explicit.

I'm unsure of what portion of my post your addressing Silyen sorry. That being said though I did decide to phone the GW hotline last night and was told the PotMS rule does indeed come into play after the snapshot rule meaning you do get all your normal snap shot's that you are entitled to and an additional shot with normal BS. That being said your of course free to look up their number on their website it's very obvious and make the call yourself. I am just some guy on the internet You do not however address my current question regarding the firing of guns interacting with PotMS.

Obeliske wrote:

According to the rules each weapon on a vehicle can only be shot once, how does that interact with PotMS? If you choose not to move during the movement phase and fire all your weapons do you get to fire an additional one of your choice as per PotMS? Or are you SOL as you've already fired all your weapons? That being said how do you decide which one gets to fire an additional time? In the example above a Punisher shooting at a flyer received 20 SS shots with its main gun against a flyer then providing the player gets to pick which gun shoots he could use that same main gun to fire an additional 20 shots against that same flyer (or another unit as per PotMS) which quite frankly is horrifying (though tbh not nearly as horrifying as some flyrants I've seen).

Ok, so say a vehicle with 6 weapons has PotMS and remains staitionary. It would normaly be able to fire 6 weapons at full ballistic skill, PotMS would increase this to 7 weapons at full BS. After it has fired all 6 of its weapons, it technically can fire another weapon. The rules do not allow us to fire the same weapon twice, and PotMS does not explicitly give that permision so in theis case the vehicle is SOL. It has permission to fire 1 more weapon, but has no weapon to fire.

This works exactly like a monstrous creature. Those units may fire two weapons in the shooting phase but if your MC only has one weapon it is SOL. It does not have permission to fire it a second time.

 DJGietzen wrote:

Obeliske wrote:

According to the rules each weapon on a vehicle can only be shot once, how does that interact with PotMS? If you choose not to move during the movement phase and fire all your weapons do you get to fire an additional one of your choice as per PotMS? Or are you SOL as you've already fired all your weapons? That being said how do you decide which one gets to fire an additional time? In the example above a Punisher shooting at a flyer received 20 SS shots with its main gun against a flyer then providing the player gets to pick which gun shoots he could use that same main gun to fire an additional 20 shots against that same flyer (or another unit as per PotMS) which quite frankly is horrifying (though tbh not nearly as horrifying as some flyrants I've seen).

Ok, so say a vehicle with 6 weapons has PotMS and remains staitionary. It would normaly be able to fire 6 weapons at full ballistic skill, PotMS would increase this to 7 weapons at full BS. After it has fired all 6 of its weapons, it technically can fire another weapon. The rules do not allow us to fire the same weapon twice, and PotMS does not explicitly give that permision so in theis case the vehicle is SOL. It has permission to fire 1 more weapon, but has no weapon to fire.

This works exactly like a monstrous creature. Those units may fire two weapons in the shooting phase but if your MC only has one weapon it is SOL. It does not have permission to fire it a second time.

Pretty much the way i think of it too, was gonna post but was at work and saw your answer .

The only time PoTMS allows an "extra" weapon to be fired is on flyers: a zooming flyer can fire a maximum of 4 weapons, PoTMS allows 1 more weapon at normal BS, so for example, a Stormraven zooming could fire its TL multi-melta, TL lascannon, 2 missiles at a vehicle and its hurricane bolters at a different target.

On ground vehicles it makes no difference (as far as how many weapons fire when stationary).

So would a Vindicator with PoTMS (30k) be allowed to fire its main cannon after moving 12"?

Ok, so for starters a tl lascannon, tl multi-melts, 2 missiles and both hurricane bolters is 5 weapons. Each missile is 1 weapin and so is each hurricane bolter.

Now the 30k vinicator has a demo cannon right? Then no. Potms does not have a specific overide for the vehicles and ordanace weapons rule.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Ok, so for starters a tl lascannon, tl multi-melts, 2 missiles and both hurricane bolters is 5 weapons. Each missile is 1 weapin and so is each hurricane bolter.

Now the 30k vinicator has a demo cannon right? Then no. Potms does not have a specific overide for the vehicles and ordanace weapons rule.

Agreed on the Vindicator, but that was my point on the Stormraven, PoTMS would allow that 5th weapon to be fired since it allows "AN ADDITIONAL" weapon to be fired, so the normal 4 allowed + the extra weapon thanks to PoTMS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S. I stand corrected on the hurricane bolters, my bad.