Does the world need another Sci-Fi 28-32 mm army-scale miniatures game?

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**Eilif**

If by game you mean package of rules fluff and figures meant to play at the same size game as 40k, I'd say probably not. However, I'd like to see a new too-many-minis sci/fi ruleset.

As for the unique scope of 40k (50-100 figs plus vehicles on a football pitch), it's not done by many other companies mostly because such a concentration is patently unrealistic and most game designers would prefer to write something at least a bit more realistic.

40k size games have been tried in the past and while they were successful for a while (Void and Warzone) they eventually died and nothing has really stuck since then. Warpath 1.0 was the same size as 40k, but Mantic pulled the plug and redesigned 2.0 as a bit smaller game. 1.0 is still available online (at warseer) and 2.0 could probably be played at 40k size without much difficulty.

**Eilif**

As stated above I totally agree that the scope of 40k compared to the size of table played on is problematic and it has had a long time to grow to that size.

However, I would put forth that it might have been inevitable. Look at the art and fluff that was published consistently (at least from 2nd edition on) lots of massive armies clashing at close range. Pretty much indistinguishable from WHFB art except for the preponderance of firearms. So perhaps the game was always destined to become "fantasy in space" in scope as well as style.

**Eilif**

BeAfraid wrote:
Infinity is basically the only thing out there for us Hard Sci-fi fans, and it is EXPENSIVE. Almost 40K Forgeworld expensive.

But... As I have always said... I care not how expensive it is, as long as it is of the highest quality...

Do you mean the only "Package" game that is available for hard sci-fi fans? Because while they may not have the same circulation or figs/fluff/rules-in-one-package as infinity, there are alot of great rules and minis for hard sci-fi. Have you played Tomorrow's War or 5150 Star Army? Great rulesets and there are also many companies with amazing figure lines that are far more "hard-sci-fi" than anything in Infinity's figure lines which are beautiful to be sure, but still have all the unrealistic anime traits of boob-armor, bare midriffs, open cleavage and oddly short pants/skirts, etc on what are supposedly combatants.

BeAfraid wrote:
...But what we really need is a 10mm/15mm game like FOW for Sci-Fi.
MB

Planetfall, Grunts 15mm, Dropzone commander, Future War commander, etc….

Many of these options require a bit of out-of-the-box acquiring of figs and vehicles, but Infinity is far from the only game in town.

**Eilif**

CT GAMER wrote:
Eilif wrote:
As stated above I totally agree that the scope of 40k compared to the size of table played on is problematic and it has had a long time to grow to that size.

However, I would put forth that it might have been inevitable. Look at the art and fluff that was published consistently (at least from 2nd edition on) lots of massive armies clashing at close range. Pretty much indistinguishable from WHFB art except for the preponderance of firearms. So perhaps the game was always destined to become "fantasy in space" in scope as well as style.

...That claustrophobic "massive armies clashing" feel evidenced in 40K art is showing you what warfare is meant to be like in this setting. It is key to the feel of 40k which is "fantasy in space". Shooting guys and killing them across the table isnt really that heroic or epic, guys crashing into each other with chainsaw swords and energy gauntlets while wearing massive suits of battle armour most certainly is.

40K isnt about realism, its about creating a certain mood and aesthetic (grimdark dark ages combat with lasers and aliens added for effect).

Just my 2 cents.

I actually think we completely agree.
My statement was an extension of my earlier post which was answering the OP's question as to why we don't have more 40k-scope rulesets. The answer being that such a rulest only works within the framework of a grimdark-fantasy-in-space 40k universe. Outside of that universe, 2 armor-reinforced company's battling on a soccer pirtch just doesn't make any sense, and there aren't presently alot of folks looking to create a 40k-ish universe to game in. Most folks writing sci-fi games are using at least some measure of "realism" (though of course it varies widely) in their rulesets and that pretty much eliminates a 40k size game.

Mantic Warpath 1.0 is a notable exception and I play a massive battle with those rules a couple of times a year with friends and our now-rarely-used 40k armies. Gives me my 40k universe fix in half the time and without dropping another 200 smackers on rules.

**Eilif**

BeAfraid wrote:

I found Tomorrow's War to basically be Iraq in Space. Same thing with 5150.

The authors sure know there stuff for a modern army.

But they fall completely flat on predictive technologies (admitted, I have a bit of an unfair advantage, as I know Google's Director of Technology Engineering on a first name basis, just as a start), and they seem to have completely ignored Ron Arkin's (The guy who wrote the book on Robotic Warfare - literally.... Wrote it for the USA, EU, and NATO) predictions about autonomous robotic systems.... and that is saying nothing about their complete lack of understanding of nanotechnology and meta-materials (materials that don't act at all like what they are. Solids that are invisible, liquids that are gaseous or solid, solids that are gaseous, any material that can trap any other material inside it at the molecular level - so stuff would pass through it like it wast there - etc.).

Plus, they lack any committed base and miniature line. "Packaged" does make things easier.

BeAfraid wrote:
...But what we really need is a 10mm/15mm game like FOW for Sci-Fi.
MB

Planetfall, Grunts 15mm, Dropzone commander, Future War commander, etc….

Many of these options require a bit of out-of-the-box acquiring of figs and vehicles, but Infinity is far from the only game in town.

More of the same. Modern combat dressed up as Sci-Fi.

Even Infinity has a bit of that going on, but it isn't that very far-future.

The problem really is that we are past the event horizon of what some call "The Technological Singularity." Thus, predicting what is on the other side is impossible until we come out the other side.

MB

I think you're probably right, though while it does have ubiquity going for it, I don't think Infinity is any better than the others as far as it's take on what is "futuristic". Further as far as minis goes there are still much more future-realistic options. As you say though, even most of the "hard" sci-fi rulesets are very much based on what we know of combat today. I'm not sure there are many rulesets that really get into "future".

One question, though is would you really want that? How much detail would be required to really add the levels of detail required to simulate the AI, drones and electronic warfare and internet combat that might make up future warfare. Not to mention that future combat might not involve many humans on the ground at all. I'm not sure that's a game that alot of folks are interested in. Yet, Iraq, vietnam or ww2 (not to mention high-fantasy) in space continue to sell pretty well.

I don't know if it's the whole package, but my buddy mentioned that Strike Legion has a pretty good mechanic for internet combat. Might be worth looking at.
http://www.wargamevault.com/product/87808/Strike-Legion-Main-Rulebook
There's also Saganami Island Tactical Simulator if you like hard space combat, but you couldn't pay me to play that.