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The chances of this happening are pretty slim, I think. But I am curious.

Example: A squad of IG demolition veterans are in a chimera they drive up close enough to an enemy for the demo charge to be tossed, but the scatter dice makes the explosion hit and destroy the chimera as well as any other damage. So the question is: if that happened, would anyone else be able to fire from the top hatch according to normal chimera rules, would nobody get to shoot because it just exploded, or would the rest of the squad that survived the explosion get to shoot now that the chimera is gone?

Thanks in advance!

hahaha a brilliant question! Please tell me this has actually come up in a game.


There no way this will be explicitly answered in the rules, but lets see..
My take:

Fire points p 80

A single passenger can fire out of each Fire point and the other transported models cannot fire. "

Ok, but the shooting phase says,
choose a target then select a weapon, then "all models that are equipped with the selected weapon now shoot"
So if you have more than the number of fire points of demo charges, then the remaining demo charges can't shoot.

then you select another weapon
so if you are wrecked after the first shot, then the fire point restriction no longer applies.
So, if you survive the wreck and are not pinned,
I guess you could still fire the remaining weapons, but not any more demo charges.


Brilliantly tho

"If a Transport is destroyed by a shooting attack, any unit that shot it that turn can, if allowed, charge the now disembarked passengers". hah self charge? :p

Oh my, this is a really confusing one. Genuinely difficult to answer.

I'd think that no, not all of the models can fire. I'd think that all of your shooting would resolve before the vehicle itself is destroyed. For example, a plasma gunner that kills himself still gets his other shots off. If I have a devastator squad, 4 plasma cannons, and the first shot fires plasma back onto themselves (killing all 4), I'd think the other shots would go off. Meaning that if your guns kill your own guys, you still get to shoot. Meaning that the vehicle wouldn't be wrecked until the rest of your shooting is resolved.

But at the same time, these are all different weapons. So it would possibly mean that, since they do happen in an order that you choose, the explosion would happen before your lasguns turn to shoot happened. Meaning that if the other ones survive the explosion it'd still be your shooting phase.

So I guess it comes down to, since they're different weapons, what order do they resolve in? How much of a gap in time is there between the different weapons shooting? Does shooting count as happening at the same time, or does the fact that weapons fire in an order you choose mean you'd resolve casualties (and destroyed vehicels) before the next weapon shot, and would disembarking mean that your shooting phase is over or still ongoing?

If the demo charge were to hit and blow up an enemy chimera, you would follow all of the steps to resolve the hit, pen, and vehicle damage result before moving onto the next model in the unit original unit that can fire. So even if it's a friendly model, you still have to follow the same steps. I think the rest of the unit would then get to fire at the same target.

 deviantduck wrote:
If the demo charge were to hit and blow up an enemy chimera, you would follow all of the steps to resolve the hit, pen, and vehicle damage result before moving onto the next model in the unit original unit that can fire. So even if it's a friendly model, you still have to follow the same steps. I think the rest of the unit would then get to fire at the same target.

How do we know that vehicle damage happens before or after the unit completes it's shooting? Yes, if the charge destroys an enemy chimera we resolve that immediately, but do we resolve it immediately "just because", or do we resolve it immediately because no one else in the unit is going to fire at the enemy chimera? Who's to say that we can't resolve all of our shooting against a wrecked chimera, but since it's wrecked, there's no point in having the rest of your unit shoot a blown up tank. Keep in mind if you destroy an enemy vehicle with the first weapon you fire, the rest of your shooting is wasted, you can't make your lasguns shoot the enemy that you forced out of the vehicle.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
If the demo charge were to hit and blow up an enemy chimera, you would follow all of the steps to resolve the hit, pen, and vehicle damage result before moving onto the next model in the unit original unit that can fire. So even if it's a friendly model, you still have to follow the same steps. I think the rest of the unit would then get to fire at the same target.

How do we know that vehicle damage happens before or after the unit completes it's shooting? Yes, if the charge destroys an enemy chimera we resolve that immediately, but do we resolve it immediately "just because", or do we resolve it immediately because no one else in the unit is going to fire at the enemy chimera? Who's to say that we can't resolve all of our shooting against a wrecked chimera, but since it's wrecked, there's no point in having the rest of your unit shoot a blown up tank. Keep in mind if you destroy an enemy vehicle with the first weapon you fire, the rest of your shooting is wasted, you can't make your lasguns shoot the enemy that you forced out of the vehicle.

Units resolve shooting by resolving each weapon in order. This order can make it so that a model that was in range before is no longer in range due to casualties. As such, if the attack scattered back and destroyed the shooting unit's own models, you would resolve that attack fully before proceeding to further weapons. If you took the Chimera out of the equation, and decided to throw the Demo Charge before shooting any lasguns, and the attack scattered back and hit some lasgun carrying models, then when it comes time to fire the lasguns you'll make fewer shots. Same thing here, it just so happens that the Chimera being destroyed might actually leave more units in range than before, as they no longer are restricted in how many more models can shoot!

In seventh edition the sequence is very straightforward. There are 7 steps to a unit's shooting.

1) Nominate a unit. Nothing unusual here, just pick the unit in the chimera.
2) Choose a target. Again, nothing unusual here, just pick an enemy unit in demo charge range.
3) Select a Weapon. In this case demo charges, determine the number of models equipped with demo charges that plan to fire them.
-a)Check range and LoS of these models to the enemy unit.

This is where the fire points rule inserts itself. With out the fire points rule, you would have no LoS to the enemy unit. Now we currently have a set of models called 'the unit' and a subset called 'models shooting their demo charges'. The fire points rule splits that subset further into two sub-subsets called 'models shooting their demo charges through a firepoint.' and 'models shooting their demo charges who cannot fire. ' Now that second sub-subset will likely be empty. I can't image you chose more models to shoot with then you knew would be able to shoot out of the fire points, but if you did those models shooting is lost for the turn.

4)Roll to hit, This step is mostly replaced by the blast rules. Keep in mind you need to scatter all of the blast makers and determine the total number of hits caused by all the demo charges fired before moving on to step 5.
-a) since you hit a vehicle with your blast, roll to pen
-b) if you pen, apply it now.

In your example this is where the chimera explodes. The unit inside disembarks and takes a pinning test. Keep in mind the unit counts as having moved.

5)Roll to wound. More changes from the blast rule, but nothing crazy.
6) Allocate wounds, take saves, remove casualties.
7) Select another weapon in the unit and repeat steps 3+.

The unit is no longer in a vehicle; step 3a is ignored since determining who can fire is part of selecting a weapon the fire points will have nothing to do with determining range or LoS.

The only thing that prevents the rest of the unit from firing when their transport is destroyed by their own shooting attack is if, when disembarking, the unit had to make an emergency disembark. If it did then the unit is not allowed to take any voluntary actions for the rest of the turn.

A further question on this: will the passengers be able to charge an enemy unit if their own vehicle has exploded? What if it was an assault vehicle?

Actually happened in a game last week when a trukk filled with meganobs was 'accidentally' destroyed by another unit in the Ork army. It was so cool that I was ok with the meganobs charging me.

For a wrecked vehicle its very clear, they disembarked to get out of the vehicle. Its no different then if they had disembarked in the movement phase. For a destroyed vehicle. Well the RAI seems to be they still disembarked so it should be no different but the RAW will cause arguments. The effects of damage on passengers tells us to place the models in coherency where the vehicle used to be, but the disembark rules tell us that if the unit disembarks a destroyed vehicle in the enemy shooting phase they can't charge in their next assault phase unless the vehicle was an assault vehicle. Now if units getting placed where the vehicle used to be is not disembarking then this how bit means nothing as a unit will never disembark a destroyed vehicle in the enemy's shorting phase so the RAI seems to be that the unit also disembarked its exploded transport.

You shot and didn't kill enough? Wreck your own darn vehicle so that more guyz can shoot!

I would say no. its a gamble you take by tossing the demo first. you could very well have fired your lasguns first and then possibly have been able to cover less guys with your demo or even found it out of range altogether and thus unable to be "fired".
I'd say you gambled or "rolled the dice" (pun intended) and lost.

 EVIL INC wrote:
I would say no. its a gamble you take by tossing the demo first. you could very well have fired your lasguns first and then possibly have been able to cover less guys with your demo or even found it out of range altogether and thus unable to be "fired".
I'd say you gambled or "rolled the dice" (pun intended) and lost.

I don't get your point in saying "you could very well have fired your lasguns first..." because the OP didn't. That's like me telling you when you go to shoot with your meltas, that you can't fire your melta guns because you could very well have fire your bolters first and then the melta guns could be out of range.