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The current allies chart is insulting to me as a player, fanfiction writer and lore-lover. 6th edition was abusive as hell, so they toned it down way too hard. I really love allies, but they are so restrictive right now. Here are a few things I propose in 8th edition that would make allying better.

- Come The Apocalypse cannot ally unless in Apocalypse games and Unbound.

- Imperium of Man is separated into Space Marines, Astra Militarum, Mechanicus (including Knights) and Inquisition (including Grey Knights).

- Tau should be Battle Brothers with Astra Militarum, Allies of Convenience with Space Marines and Desperate Allies with the rest of the IoM.

- Eldar are Battle Brothers with Space Marines, Inquisition, Astra Militarum and Desperate Allies with Dark Eldar.

- Dark Eldar and Chaos Space Marines are Battle Brothers.

- Necron are Allies of Convenience Space Marines and Inquisition.

- Tau are Allies of Convenience with Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldar.

- Orks are Allies of Convenience with everyone except Inquisition, Space Marines, Tyranids and Daemons.

- New Codex: Warriors of Chaos, the equivalent of Imperial Guards but fighting for Chaos. They are Battle Brothers with Tau and Chaos Space Marines.

How do you think? Any further suggestion, apart from removing the allies chart altogether and have all faction stand alone?

Why are Eldar battle brothers with almost the entire Imperium of Man but Desperate Allies with Dark Eldar?

While it is true that the Dark Eldar do prey on the Eldar from time to time, they will work together, either aiding against a threat or as a band of Corsairs (which is almost always made up of both Craftworld and Dark Eldar).

I'd say that the 7th chart is far more abusive than the 6th ed one was.

That being said, I way preferred 6th ed's chart with the IoM all being separate so I'd go back to that but remove the Taudar shenanigans.

Seriously, how was Taudar (2 codices) more abusive than the cherry picking that we face nowadays?

I'll repost my previous thoughts on the alliance chart, which only has three levels of alliance (AoC, desperate, CTA). It's a circle of alliances in order to ensure that it is fair for all armies, everyone can ally with their own faction (e.g. if you're using assassins, a formation, other mini-dex). I pulled IG back out of the broader Adeptes/Inquisition group because the IG as a faction can be anything from ultranationalist rebels, to Imperials, to Tau Auxiliaries, to traitor guard. No reason why the IoM should have a monopoly on IG.

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Revamped Allies Matrix, any force may ally with their own faction as allies of convenience (must be different source codex or dataslate), the armies above and below as desperate allies, any other alliance is come the apocalypse:

- Space Marines & Inquisition & Sisters & Assassins (Vanilla, Blood Angels, etc.)
- Imperial Guard
- Chaos & Demons
- Orks
- Dark Eldar
- Eldar
- Tau
- Necrons (wraps back with Marines)

Tyranids are come the apocalypse allies with everyone.

This way the alliance system is more equitably distributed across armies. And there is much less room for rules exploitation across armies since there are no battle brothers. You can still field human auxilia next to Tau, or traitor guard, etc. There are just substantial penalties.

Why are Eldar allied with Imperial Guard?

 Happyjew wrote:
Why are Eldar battle brothers with almost the entire Imperium of Man but Desperate Allies with Dark Eldar?

While it is true that the Dark Eldar do prey on the Eldar from time to time, they will work together, either aiding against a threat or as a band of Corsairs (which is almost always made up of both Craftworld and Dark Eldar).

Eldar fight together with the Imperium of Man most the time, against Necron, Orks, Tyranids, Chaos and even Dark Eldar. They only ally with Dark Eldar in fighting against the Tyranids and Orks, and even that is a desperate alliance, as the Dark Eldar, according to their Supplement, steal any Eldar spirit they can get their hand on, including World Spirits of Maiden Worlds, and never give back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matthew wrote:
Why are Eldar allied with Imperial Guard?

Imperial Guards will ally with pretty much anyone which does not trigger their xenophobib too much. Eldar and Tau are generally human-like and following that logic, Imperial commanders will be more likely to look for them as allies rather than Orks, Chaos or Necrons.

So am I the only one who noticed the bizarre and idiotic ability for DE and Chaos Marines to be Battle Brothers?

You know, given how the DE have a blazing hatred of Chaos, and especially Slaanesh, and would do anything to avoid being bros with Chaos anything.

Also, I would argue that DE/Eldar alliances are Allies of Convenience- the two factions are pragmatic enough to ally when its most convenient to do so, even if they have a mutual dislike of each other.

Whiskey144 wrote:
So am I the only one who noticed the bizarre and idiotic ability for DE and Chaos Marines to be Battle Brothers?

You know, given how the DE have a blazing hatred of Chaos, and especially Slaanesh, and would do anything to avoid being bros with Chaos anything.

Nope, I'm just still to busy trying to pick my sides up off the floor due to laughing so hard.

Whiskey144 wrote:
So am I the only one who noticed the bizarre and idiotic ability for DE and Chaos Marines to be Battle Brothers?

You know, given how the DE have a blazing hatred of Chaos, and especially Slaanesh, and would do anything to avoid being bros with Chaos anything.

Also, I would argue that DE/Eldar alliances are Allies of Convenience- the two factions are pragmatic enough to ally when its most convenient to do so, even if they have a mutual dislike of each other.

Dark Eldar and Chaos Space Marines hire each other as mercenaries all the time. Both are sadistic killers who want to fill their cargo with slaves, so they will sympathize one another more than any other race.

Really? That's your excuse? "lawlz they're both sadists"

Did you miss the part where the Chaos Marines are loyal to Chaos, which is the one thing the DE actually fear?

Why is it in any way logical for a group to ally itself with an entity that wants to consume their souls?

Also, citation needed on the whole "DE/CSM hire each other as mercs all the time" bit. Also, citation needed on the "CSM want to fill their cargo with slaves".

Given that, in order to be a CSM, you basically have to either embrace Chaos or have been around since the Heresy, when the decision was made to turn on the Emperor and Imperium.

DE fear She Who Firsts...I just can't fathom them being chums with Chaos.

Whiskey144 wrote:
Really? That's your excuse? "lawlz they're both sadists"

Did you miss the part where the Chaos Marines are loyal to Chaos, which is the one thing the DE actually fear?

Why is it in any way logical for a group to ally itself with an entity that wants to consume their souls?

Also, citation needed on the whole "DE/CSM hire each other as mercs all the time" bit. Also, citation needed on the "CSM want to fill their cargo with slaves".

Given that, in order to be a CSM, you basically have to either embrace Chaos or have been around since the Heresy, when the decision was made to turn on the Emperor and Imperium.

Dark Eldar do not fear Chaos like their Craftworld and Exodite cousins. They have no regret sacrificing their troops in the thousands to satisfy their pride. They are also NOT pragmatic, more like opportunistic and will turn upon their allies at the nearest moment possible. This nature is the same as Chaos. Their Champions will expect treachery from the Dark Eldar no more than they do from their own underlings.

During the Assault on Cephian IV, the Black Templars destroyed many Dark Eldar mercenaries hired by the Alpha Legion. The narrative in Dawn of War: Soulstorm indicates the Dark Eldar would be fine working together with Chaos, but in this case, they are enemies. In the novel The Chapter's Due, the Iron Warriors were joined by a band of pirates whose leader is rumored to be part Eldar.

For the second one, why? Is that not obvious? How much do you know about Chaos Space Marines anyway? In the novel Dead Sky Black Sun and Siege of Castellax, the Iron Warriors capture many slaves of many worlds and use as forced labor. The ones who show potentials are recruited as Chaos Space Marines (though their stock of geneseed is not very safe). The cultist unit if the Codex partly consists of worshipers of Dark Gods and partly the people captured by Chaos and tainted and forced to fight for them.

bibotot wrote:

Dark Eldar do not fear Chaos like their Craftworld and Exodite cousins. They have no regret sacrificing their troops in the thousands to satisfy their pride. They are also NOT pragmatic, more like opportunistic and will turn upon their allies at the nearest moment possible. This nature is the same as Chaos. Their Champions will expect treachery from the Dark Eldar no more than they do from their own underlings.

Yes, Dark Eldar most certainly DO fear Chaos, especially Slaanesh just as much, (if not even slightly more so), than their Craftworld & Exodite cousins do. Their entire society is built around inflicting as much pain & suffering on others as possible in order to subvert Slaanesh's thirst from feeding on their own souls!
Their whole 'treachery at every turn' is a staple of the nobility and how one advances within Kabalite society. (Wyches aren't so much betrayers as simply outright murderers, while Scourges are completely outside of all the backstabbing)

Chaos on the other hand isn't in any way about constant betrayals & backstabbing, but rather the personal pursuit of ultimate power & personal glory. A Chaos Lord isn't always looking over shoulder because all his underlings want to kill him, if he's strong enough and ruthless enough, his men will follow him. It's typically only when a leader is perceived as weak in some way or another that he has to start looking out for would-be challengers.
There are also numerous Warbands who outright venerate their leaders, such as the Word Bearers, (killing a Dark Apostle is seen as offending the Gods themselves!), or many of the Black Legion bands. Renegade Chapters who turn to Chaos are also more likely to maintain their higher chains of command. Even the World Eaters don't readily backstab eachother, instead their 'friendly' casualties resulting more or less from the way they worship Khorne with their bloody tournaments!

bibotot wrote:
During the Assault on Cephian IV, the Black Templars destroyed many Dark Eldar mercenaries hired by the Alpha Legion. The narrative in Dawn of War: Soulstorm indicates the Dark Eldar would be fine working together with Chaos, but in this case, they are enemies. In the novel The Chapter's Due, the Iron Warriors were joined by a band of pirates whose leader is rumored to be part Eldar.

1. And hiring mercenaries is strictly a thing of Alpha Legion themselves, rather than any kind of typical 'Chaos doctrine'.
Most of the auxiliary units employed by Chaos Marine forces are those who've pledged themselves to the Warbands & the Chaos Gods themselves... Renegades & traitors from human society, mutants, and Xenos who try to use Chaos as a means to quickly gaining true power.

2. The Dark Eldar weren't working with the Chaos forces. Using them to further their own ends? Absolutely! it's what Eldar do best after all.

3. Yes, rumored to be part Eldar. Not an actual Eldar, and most certainly not representative of any aspect of the various Eldar societies as a whole. That's like saying that since 4 American kids joined a cult, then American kids in general readily work with/join cults.

bibotot wrote:
For the second one, why? Is that not obvious? How much do you know about Chaos Space Marines anyway? In the novel Dead Sky Black Sun and Siege of Castellax, the Iron Warriors capture many slaves of many worlds and use as forced labor. The ones who show potentials are recruited as Chaos Space Marines (though their stock of geneseed is not very safe). The cultist unit if the Codex partly consists of worshipers of Dark Gods and partly the people captured by Chaos and tainted and forced to fight for them.

The Iron Warriors slave taking is simply their own unique doctrine... due to the nature of the styles of warfare they fight in, they make use of large slave labour forces to 'do all the dirty work' that they themselves consider beneath them.

The Emp's Children take some slaves in order to torture for their own pleasure, but most of their excesses are carried out during actual battle and within it's direct aftermath. The Word Bearers take prisoners only to fuel their daemonic rituals & religious practices.

Most CSM's however don't take prisoners or slaves, especially in the way that Dark Eldar take slaves to help fuel their entire society!

bibotot wrote:
Dark Eldar do not fear Chaos like their Craftworld and Exodite cousins. They have no regret sacrificing their troops in the thousands to satisfy their pride. They are also NOT pragmatic, more like opportunistic and will turn upon their allies at the nearest moment possible. This nature is the same as Chaos. Their Champions will expect treachery from the Dark Eldar no more than they do from their own underlings.

You don't know anything about the DE do you? Because it's been a staple of the faction since what, 3rd Edition? that they have an enormous fear of Slaanesh. Moreover, the 5th edition Codex (and the DE Path trilogy by Andy Chambers) further establishes that the DE fear Slaanesh, and the slavetaking/raiding societal makeup of the DE is due to them needing to inflict mass pain/suffering in order to stave off the effects of Slaanesh slowly sucking out their souls.

I bet it would be really hard to do that if they get betrayed by some CSM who then kill them. Since that would mean that they've all been eaten by Slaanesh.

bibotot wrote:
During the Assault on Cephian IV, the Black Templars destroyed many Dark Eldar mercenaries hired by the Alpha Legion.

Citation needed on source.

Also, obligatory "Alpha Legion are closet Loyalists" comment <insert here>.

bibotot wrote:
The narrative in Dawn of War: Soulstorm indicates the Dark Eldar would be fine working together with Chaos, but in this case, they are enemies.

Relic has basically disavowed Soulstorm, to the point that there's a direct dialogue reference from one of the characters of the DoW2 campaign. Said character describes Kaurava as a "mistake". There's also the fact that the fluff has changed a lot since then, with the DE getting a lot more screentime in the fluff, due to their updated 5th edition book, and the aforementioned DE Path trilogy (which is quite good BTW).

bibotot wrote:
In the novel The Chapter's Due, the Iron Warriors were joined by a band of pirates whose leader is rumored to be part Eldar.

As I seem to be one of the few people who enjoyed McNeill's Ultramarines series, and I own all the novels, I can say that you're also being fallacious here.

-The individual in question was rumored to be part Eldar- IE, it was unconfirmed, unknown, and at best is hearsay.
-IF the rumor was true, then the individual would be only part Eldar- as in, they would be a 'half-breed'. Which also makes such a person non-representative of the Eldar species, and the particular factions of said species.

bibotot wrote:
For the second one, why? Is that not obvious? How much do you know about Chaos Space Marines anyway? In the novel Dead Sky Black Sun and Siege of Castellax, the Iron Warriors capture many slaves of many worlds and use as forced labor. The ones who show potentials are recruited as Chaos Space Marines (though their stock of geneseed is not very safe). The cultist unit if the Codex partly consists of worshipers of Dark Gods and partly the people captured by Chaos and tainted and forced to fight for them.

Enough to know that the different Traitor Legions all have different operational practices. Iron Warriors slavetaking isn't the norm, and is also for a particular purpose. Similarly, the only other Legions who would engage in slavetaking are the Word Bearers- to use said slaves as ritual sacrifice fuel, with none of the other Legions really having any need for slaving.

The Chaos Forces and all Traitor Legions taking slaves has been a constant since Realms of Chaos and remains a constant in the fluff

they take Slaves because:

They can
For sport and torture and anything else you imagine - and stuff you can't.
To be used as slave labour, fuel for daemon engines, building monuments to the Dark Gods, polishing armour, reciing epic poems, naviating ships, loading guns
To be drive in front of the army as bullet shields.
Some like the Word Bearrs want to coorrupt them to true belief
Sorcerers want sacrifices and vessels for daemon summoning.

The Dark Eldar have worked with Chaos, including Daemons on aquite a few occassions - they will use any and all methods to get ahead and also not be devoured by Slaanesh - including making deals with her minions.
The Dark Eldar Codex talks about this and also occassionalliances for raiding or exchanges of knwledge and power - such as Fabius Bile studying with Horumucli.
Eldar and Dark Eldar privateers will raid pretty much anyone and so can be defacto allies of conveience with pretty much anyone - even Tau have (to their eternal regret) allies with Dark Eldar.

The current Ally table is better than the travesty we had before.......

The Imperium of Man makes sense ot be BB with all Imperium of Man and AOC with Eldar, Tau and Desperate Allies with Necrons and Dark Eldar, CTA with Tyranids and Orks
Chaos is the difficult one - you shoudl really ally in all Imperium of Man as they have corrupted all elements of that power except Grey Knights and Sororitas.

Eldar are BB with Harlequins, IMO AOC with Dark Eldar, The Imperium and Tau, DA with ORks and CTA with Necrons Tryanids and Chaos
Dark Eldar are BB with Harlequins, AOC with Eldar, Chaos with DA as Orks, CTA the with Tyranids and Necrons and Tau (now)

its very very difficult to get this right tbh

I really dont there should be any battle brothers. Only aoc and cta. More cta than aoc.