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So I am looking at doing a Grey Knight/Scion army and came across what I think is legit, albeit kinda messed up rules execution:

BRB p 166: "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So I have a Grey Knight Brother Captain join a unit of scions. He likes his little buddies and becomes part of their unit.

The "unit" he joins is from Codex: Militarum Tempestus and part of the Militarum Tempestus faction. Even though he joined it, he is part of the unit, the unit was Scions, I believe it remains so and retains all the benefits and restrictions of being Scions.

The Scions are aboard their Valk transport and in an airborne formation. They then grav-chute out like heroes...Well...except for the Brother-Captain. He grav chutes out but it's more like trying to slighty slow a heavy bomb and he hits the ground a bit harder. He doesn't have Move Through Cover, but the unit does, so IAW BRB p168 they get to roll 3d6 and aren't slowed by charging in difficult terrain. However, as a model, he still takes dangerous terrain tests so he has the gliding capacity of a brick and could break his knees or ankles as he drops out if the unit scatters. (Good thing he has heavy armor.) The scions just face palm if they scatter as he lands with all the grace of a drunken rhino...the animal...I don't think transports can get drunk...but they do have machine spirits supposedly...anyway!

Now's when things get a little wonky. I assert that the Air Calvary: special rule still applies to the unit as the unit is still part of the Airborne Assault formation. The special rule transfers to him because he is part of the unit. So the whole unit can still get to reroll their scatter and be more accurate...or ya know, maybe prevent their buddy from possibly breaking his knees. Silly Grey Knights don't know how to fall with style.

When they're dropping though they are under the command of a Scion Lord Commissar with the Grav Chute Commander warlord trait. It says all "units" from the same detachment only scatter d6" instead of 2d6." Our scions with Grey Knight are still a unit from the detachment so the whole force only scatters 1d6" ("No...you silly super human..steer that thing like...um...away from that tree. Seriously? Good grief it's not that hard!")

Having landed on the ground, stepping out of the fluffy crater (as opposed to terrain crater) dropping terminator armor into soft dirt causes (maybe they give him a drag chute in addition to his grav chute?) they get ready to shoot. He breaks out his Psycannon because badass and they get their weapons ready to rock and roll. They are a unit from the formation still, and they disembarked from the Valk so "Secure the Area" now gives the unit "Split Fire" and "Twin-linked." Once again the Scions show the Grey Knight how to really clear an area and someone gets to pick a different target if they want, the rest all open up on something. He gets to fire that big ole psycannon as twin-linked since he's still part of the unit.

They're getting ready to open up now and a Scion CC comms over the Clarion-Voxnet and calls out "Autonomous Fire Sanctioned." They take a LD test on the Brother-Captain's leadership of 10 since it's the highest in the unit. ("Do what he's telling us to!...why am I listening to him again? I'll just pretend it was good advice.") He's also part of the unit...the unit is still a "single friendly unit from Codex: Militarum Tempestus" and therefore can still accept the order. The unit, including the captain, accept the order and have now gained "preferred enemy."

This captain really loves working with Scions. He gets some more buddies, cuz hey, this whole thing is kinda fun being the really tall dude in an army of guys with AP3 weapons.

Next Battle he is the warlord of an army. The scions are providing forces to back 'em up. He joins a unit of scions and all go into deep strike reserve. He has the warlord trait "First to the Fray." This allows the warlord and his unit to automatically arrive from DSR on turn 1 and can re-roll the scatter dice when deep striking. He does this bringing in a full squad of 10 scions because why not. He is part of a Nemesis Strike Force...the scions are not. He can still bring in the unit, since he is the warlord and they are his unit...however, the unit cannot benefit from Rites of Teleportation and therefore they cannot shoot and run. They can, however, still receive orders as a Militarium Tempestus unit...because, even though he is a warlord from a Grey Knights Nemesis strike force, the unit remains a Tempestus unit.

Does anyone see anything against RAW/RAI or is this just silly fun that Battle Brothers get to do!

Lendys wrote:
So I am looking at doing a Grey Knight/Scion army and came across what I think is legit, albeit kinda messed up rules execution:

BRB p 166: "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."

So I have a Grey Knight Brother Captain join a unit of scions. He likes his little buddies and becomes part of their unit.

The "unit" he joins is from Codex: Militarum Tempestus and part of the Militarum Tempestus faction. Even though he joined it, he is part of the unit, the unit was Scions, I believe it remains so and retains all the benefits and restrictions of being Scions.

The Scions are aboard their Valk transport and in an airborne formation. They then grav-chute out like heroes...Well...except for the Brother-Captain. He grav chutes out but it's more like trying to slighty slow a heavy bomb and he hits the ground a bit harder. He doesn't have Move Through Cover, but the unit does, so IAW BRB p168 they get to roll 3d6 and aren't slowed by charging in difficult terrain. However, as a model, he still takes dangerous terrain tests so he has the gliding capacity of a brick and could break his knees or ankles as he drops out if the unit scatters. (Good thing he has heavy armor.) The scions just face palm if they scatter as he lands with all the grace of a drunken rhino...the animal...I don't think transports can get drunk...but they do have machine spirits supposedly...anyway!

Now's when things get a little wonky. I assert that the Air Calvary: special rule still applies to the unit as the unit is still part of the Airborne Assault formation. The special rule transfers to him because he is part of the unit. So the whole unit can still get to reroll their scatter and be more accurate...or ya know, maybe prevent their buddy from possibly breaking his knees. Silly Grey Knights don't know how to fall with style.

When they're dropping though they are under the command of a Scion Lord Commissar with the Grav Chute Commander warlord trait. It says all "units" from the same detachment only scatter d6" instead of 2d6." Our scions with Grey Knight are still a unit from the detachment so the whole force only scatters 1d6" ("No...you silly super human..steer that thing like...um...away from that tree. Seriously? Good grief it's not that hard!")

Having landed on the ground, stepping out of the fluffy crater (as opposed to terrain crater) dropping terminator armor into soft dirt causes (maybe they give him a drag chute in addition to his grav chute?) they get ready to shoot. He breaks out his Psycannon because badass and they get their weapons ready to rock and roll. They are a unit from the formation still, and they disembarked from the Valk so "Secure the Area" now gives the unit "Split Fire" and "Twin-linked." Once again the Scions show the Grey Knight how to really clear an area and someone gets to pick a different target if they want, the rest all open up on something. He gets to fire that big ole psycannon as twin-linked since he's still part of the unit.

They're getting ready to open up now and a Scion CC comms over the Clarion-Voxnet and calls out "Autonomous Fire Sanctioned." They take a LD test on the Brother-Captain's leadership of 10 since it's the highest in the unit. ("Do what he's telling us to!...why am I listening to him again? I'll just pretend it was good advice.") He's also part of the unit...the unit is still a "single friendly unit from Codex: Militarum Tempestus" and therefore can still accept the order. The unit, including the captain, accept the order and have now gained "preferred enemy."

This captain really loves working with Scions. He gets some more buddies, cuz hey, this whole thing is kinda fun being the really tall dude in an army of guys with AP3 weapons.

Next Battle he is the warlord of an army. The scions are providing forces to back 'em up. He joins a unit of scions and all go into deep strike reserve. He has the warlord trait "First to the Fray." This allows the warlord and his unit to automatically arrive from DSR on turn 1 and can re-roll the scatter dice when deep striking. He does this bringing in a full squad of 10 scions because why not. He is part of a Nemesis Strike Force...the scions are not. He can still bring in the unit, since he is the warlord and they are his unit...however, the unit cannot benefit from Rites of Teleportation and therefore they cannot shoot and run. They can, however, still receive orders as a Militarium Tempestus unit...because, even though he is a warlord from a Grey Knights Nemesis strike force, the unit remains a Tempestus unit.

Does anyone see anything against RAW/RAI or is this just silly fun that Battle Brothers get to do!

So... before anything else you should read the following rule:

"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from
those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the
unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the
Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that
are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with
them."

Next, it is my understanding that a formation cannot be joined before deployment by anyone that isn't in the formation and still be considered that formation. I'm not sure if this was your plan but if it were, it's not possible. If you're trying to join a character to a unit that is a part of a formation during a battle, refer to the rule above for the special rules conferring.

Lastly, just because your GK guy joins a Scion unit does not mean he is counted as a Scion NOR as MT. He is still a GK and follows the rule I posted above.

I hope this has helped you in your question.

It all looks legal to me.

If a Faction special rule, refers to units of the faction, then even if an IC joins the unit it is still a unit of said Faction.

If, however, the rule requires all models to have a special rule/faction/etc. for the unit to benefit (for example, "A unit entirely comprised of models with "X"...") then the unit will not benefit unless the attached IC(s) have said special rule/faction/etc.

 Happyjew wrote:
It all looks legal to me.

If a Faction special rule, refers to units of the faction, then even if an IC joins the unit it is still a unit of said Faction.

If, however, the rule requires all models to have a special rule/faction/etc. for the unit to benefit (for example, "A unit entirely comprised of models with "X"...") then the unit will not benefit unless the attached IC(s) have said special rule/faction/etc.

Not quite because he can't join the captain to the scions formation pre-deployment and have it still be a formation.

Why can he not join the Captain pre-deployment?

Unless the Formation/Detachment specifically forbids it, as long as the IC is BB with the unit he can join.

Correction. Why can the Captain not join the unit at deployment/putting units in Reserve?

 Happyjew wrote:
Why can he not join the Captain pre-deployment?

Unless the Formation/Detachment specifically forbids it, as long as the IC is BB with the unit he can join.

Correction. Why can the Captain not join the unit at deployment/putting units in Reserve?

You CAN join them pre deployment but they would no longer count as a formation. Formations are a group of specific models with specific rules pertaining to them. It would be akin to a space wolf player using the void claws formation and adding in njal and arjac to allow them to DS turn 1. It's just not legal to add units to a formation pre-deployment and have it still count as the formation.

I'm sure you can cite a rule to back up your stance?

"This section of the Detachment lists any additional restrictions that apply to the units you
can include as part of this Detachment. If an Army List Entry does not adhere to a
particular restriction, it cannot be included as part of this particular Detachment....
Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units
renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.
Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will
need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to
describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific
units together."

In other words, you can only use the specific models listed in each formation. Adding any additional ones outside of the formation will make it not count as the formation (basically just losing all the special rules for it.).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If an Army List Entry does not adhere to a
particular restriction, it cannot be included as part of this particular Detachment. For
example, in order to include a Combined Arms Detachment, all of its Army List Entries
must have the same Faction.

Also, having a GK added into a scion formation would be illegal too according to this one. <3

You realize what you quoted deals only with building your army, right?

 Happyjew wrote:
You realize what you quoted deals only with building your army, right?

Yes and building your army is also known as pre-deployment


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, am I wrong?

Which is why I corrected my post. Pre-deployment, you cannot attach any IC to a unit.

At deployment, you can attach ICs to units.

 Happyjew wrote:
Which is why I corrected my post. Pre-deployment, you cannot attach any IC to a unit.

At deployment, you can attach ICs to units.

Correct but while you can attach the IC to a unit at deployment, a formation still can't have the bonuses of being a formation if it isn't comprised of only the specific models that comprise it. Otherwise the rule would have said "specific models and others" or "all models".

By your logic then, as soon as the Commissar, or a unit of Scions dies, the formation breaks up and everyone loses their rules bonuses as the formation no longer consists of the required units. Is that your contention?

Additionally, the rule you state says "Army list entries" but then says "...any special rules those units gain." So it's looking at them as units again. Also, the formation I quoted also only gives a restriction of "The Commissar must join one of the squads in this Formation during deployment."

It doesn't say "No other ICs may join the units of this formation."

As soon as the Brother-Captain joins a unit of Scions he is part of it for all rules purposes. It's still a Tempestus Scion Squad "for all rules purposes"

Lendys wrote:
By your logic then, as soon as the Commissar, or a unit of Scions dies, the formation breaks up and everyone loses their rules bonuses as the formation no longer consists of the required units. Is that your contention?

Additionally, the rule you state says "Army list entries" but then says "...any special rules those units gain." So it's looking at them as units again. Also, the formation I quoted also only gives a restriction of "The Commissar must join one of the squads in this Formation during deployment."

It doesn't say "No other ICs may join the units of this formation."

As soon as the Brother-Captain joins a unit of Scions he is part of it for all rules purposes. It's still a Tempestus Scion Squad "for all rules purposes"

You're clearly not paying attention then.

the IC cannot join the formation.

The IC can join the unit from the formation, but does not become a member of a different formation.

So the IC is joined to the unit but the unit is from the formation and the IC is from the CAD.

No rule conferring from the formation affects the IC unless otherwise stated (such as rules like outflank where it says if even one model in a unit has the rule)


Your formation stays a formation regardless of what units are alive or not just like it would stay the same if they get joined later on the battle by an IC. He can join a UNIT within the formation but he CANNOT join the formation and keep the formation as a formation.

"Now's when things get a little wonky. I assert that the Air Calvary: special rule still applies to the unit as the unit is still part of the Airborne Assault formation. The special rule transfers to him because he is part of the unit. "

^ For example, this is ONLY true if the rule that you're using to allow it specifically states that it affects an entire unit. Meaning the formation rules have to specifically state that it affects "all models in the unit." otherwise it won't work.

Hopefully that cleared it up a bit for you. I know it gets really convoluted with GW rules.

Ok, so if he joins a unit from the formation. How do you resolve, for example, the scatter? Would he scatter 2d6 but the unit would scatter 1d6? Where does the statement "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." end and the "Special Rules" clause come into play?

I get that if a DS-capable termie joints a group of Marines they don't gain Deepstrike, and a power armor dude in a group of termies not everyone in the unit has deep strike and therefore the rule specifically says you can't do it. The rules I quoted though all refer to the "unit" not the "models."

So when do you determine that yes the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes...and what rules is he not part of the unit?

For example, this is ONLY true if the rule that you're using to allow it specifically states that it affects an entire unit.

All of the rules I quoted did say the "unit" not "models in this unit from Codex: Tempestus Scion" or words to that effect. So if the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes...and the unit is affected..why would he not be affected?

Lendys wrote:
Ok, so if he joins a unit from the formation. How do you resolve, for example, the scatter? Would he scatter 2d6 but the unit would scatter 1d6? Where does the statement "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters." end and the "Special Rules" clause come into play?

I get that if a DS-capable termie joints a group of Marines they don't gain Deepstrike, and a power armor dude in a group of termies not everyone in the unit has deep strike and therefore the rule specifically says you can't do it. The rules I quoted though all refer to the "unit" not the "models."

So when do you determine that yes the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes...and what rules is he not part of the unit?

For example, this is ONLY true if the rule that you're using to allow it specifically states that it affects an entire unit.

All of the rules I quoted did say the "unit" not "models in this unit from Codex: Tempestus Scion" or words to that effect. So if the IC is part of the unit for all rules purposes...and the unit is affected..why would he not be affected?

What does the rule about the scatter say specifically? It matters here.

The rules for an IC joining a unit are the same as my first post.
"When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from
those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the
unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the
Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that
are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with
them."

So... it really depends on what your formation rules say as to the scatter. If the rules of the formation only apply to units that are a part of the formation then unfortunately the hq will scatter more than the squad because the HQ is not part of the formation. If the rules say something along the lines of "scatters 1d6 for all units" and leaves out the "in this formation" part you have a loop hole and you can scatter the 1d6.

It is important to note that an HQ joined to a unit is still two units that comprise a single unit for the purposes of shooting, moving and all that jazz. And, because the HQ cannot necessarily gain the benefits of the unit he's joined to (and vice versa), there may be different rules for him than there are for the rest of the unit. It's akin to having a rune priest in a squad of blood claws. Just because he's in the unit doesn't mean he gets rage. Same goes for this. Just because he's in the unit doesn't mean the units special rules (and formations special rules) apply. They may or may not depending on exact wording. It's possible they do... so if you can quote it for me I can tell.

Freya, the rule you are quoting is discussing a unit's special rules as per its unit entry. It is basically saying that if for example a non-Deep Strike IC joins a unit of Space Marine Terminators the IC will not gain the Deep Strike special rule.

That is not to say that the effect of a unit's special rules may not be conferred on an attached Independent Character, particularly when the effect of the rule applies to "the unit", which we know as per the IC rules for joining units the IC becomes part of.

The rule you are quoting simply states the IC does not gain a unit's special rules; it says nothing of the benefit of the unit's special rules.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Freya, the rule you are quoting is discussing a unit's special rules as per its unit entry. It is basically saying that if for example a non-Deep Strike IC joins a unit of Space Marine Terminators the IC will not gain the Deep Strike special rule.

That is not to say that the effect of a unit's special rules may not be conferred on an attached Independent Character, particularly when the effect of the rule applies to "the unit", which we know as per the IC rules for joining units the IC becomes part of.

The rule you are quoting simply states the IC does not gain a unit's special rules; it says nothing of the benefit of the unit's special rules.

Right and if youd paid attention a moment ago you'd have realized that an HQ that joins a formation doesn't gain the formations special benefits unless otherwise stated.

You can't join njal to a void claws formation and DS them all turn one. Meaning adding an HQ to a unit that says it comes in turn one because of formation benefits doesn't count as part of a formation so won't come in turn one because the HQ is not part of the formation but part of the unit instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's convoluted for sure but it doesn't work.

 Freya wrote:
Right and if youd paid attention a moment ago you'd have realized that an HQ that joins a formation doesn't gain the formations special benefits unless otherwise stated.

You can't join njal to a void claws formation and DS them all turn one. Meaning adding an HQ to a unit that says it comes in turn one because of formation benefits doesn't count as part of a formation so won't come in turn one because the HQ is not part of the formation but part of the unit instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's convoluted for sure but it doesn't work.

You need to provide rules to support these statements.

As it stands we have rules support for an Independent Character joining a unit before the game in reserves, rules support for the Independent Character counting as part of that unit for all rules purposes, Independent Characters not gaining the special rules of the unit (despite still being part of the unit) but nothing to generally deny Independent Characters enjoying the effects or benefits of a unit's special rules (provided the special rule applies to the unit or units with at least one model with the special rule, and not simlpy models with the special rule).

So why can't you join Njal Stormcaller to a unit of Wolf Guard Terminators taken as part of a Void Claws Formation and have them arrive via Deep Strike from turn one? Spearhead Strike in the example you're talking about here doesn't require all models to have the rule; it simply applies to all units in the formation, one of which Njal Stormcaller would count as part of for all rules purposes.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Freya wrote:
Right and if youd paid attention a moment ago you'd have realized that an HQ that joins a formation doesn't gain the formations special benefits unless otherwise stated.

You can't join njal to a void claws formation and DS them all turn one. Meaning adding an HQ to a unit that says it comes in turn one because of formation benefits doesn't count as part of a formation so won't come in turn one because the HQ is not part of the formation but part of the unit instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's convoluted for sure but it doesn't work.

You need to provide rules to support these statements.

As it stands we have rules support for an Independent Character joining a unit before the game in reserves, rules support for the Independent Character counting as part of that unit for all rules purposes, Independent Characters not gaining the special rules of the unit (despite still being part of the unit) but nothing to generally deny Independent Characters enjoying the effects or benefits of a unit's special rules (provided the special rule applies to the unit or units with at least one model with the special rule, and not simlpy models with the special rule).

So why can't you join Njal Stormcaller to a unit of Wolf Guard Terminators taken as part of a Void Claws Formation and have them arrive via Deep Strike from turn one? Spearhead Strike in the example you're talking about here doesn't require all models to have the rule; it simply applies to all units in the formation, one of which Njal Stormcaller would count as part of for all rules purposes.

Look I've already been over this a dozen times and I'm tired of repeating myself. If you wanna ignore the rules of how detachments, formations and characters work go right on ahead. I've already shown you and everyone else why they don't.

People on this site are literally the only ones that would ever argue about this. Every single person I know would understand exactly what I'm saying but apparently it's too tough for you so go do whatever you want.

 Freya wrote:
Look I've already been over this a dozen times and I'm tired of repeating myself. If you wanna ignore the rules of how detachments, formations and characters work go right on ahead. I've already shown you and everyone else why they don't.

People on this site are literally the only ones that would ever argue about this. Every single person I know would understand exactly what I'm saying but apparently it's too tough for you so go do whatever you want.

No you haven't. You've made a claim that's been pointed out to be incorrect by Happyjew, where you were corrected that formation restrictions only exist when building your army list pre-deployment (with which you agreed) and that joining Independent Characters to units occurs at deployment, after which point a formation is already a formation.

You've then gone on to claim that somehow you are still not allowed to join an Independent Character from outside of the formation and have it count as a formation, despite the Independent Character rules stating a joined IC counts as part of the unit to which it is joined for all rules purposes, and the rules we are discussing apply to units in the formation (which the IC counts as).

You have attempted to shift the goalposts but now appear to be simply giving up and trying to claim some imaginary moral high ground. Is it really so hard to simply say, "I don't have rules to back that up. You might be right, though I personally don't like the idea of playing it that way."

Someone asked what the rules have to say on the matter. Don't make up an argument and refuse to support it while claiming the rules say something they don't, or at least that you are unwilling or unable to demonstrate.

Yes, and if we met Freya I woudl still argue. Noone I've met in real life would even think that joining an IC to a formation suddenly stops it counting as a formation

Its such a mess of an argument, finished up with a toys and pram moment, its probably OK to let it die here?

The actual ruels are clear - joining the IC is perfectly possible, while gaining any rules which apply to a UNIT fromthe detachment is what actually happens

Agreed on all points.

Good to know it's a viable and interesting tactic. Once again why I think the battle brother nature of the Armies of Man really give them some advantages that can be taken advantage of as you get more books and have all your buddies working together against common foes.

(Also one reason I think it provides a lot more possibilities than even CE/DE or CSM/CD. And certainly more than Orks, Necrons, Tau...and absolutely more than poor Tyranids.)