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This is not for people to say 'this isn't going to change GWs ways, 40k is a take it or leave it game' this is for passionate hobbyists to support me. When this thread has been running for a week I will send GW an email with this included. To sign in, just vote yes on the poll and type your initials into a reply.

Thank you

What poll?

Just added it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
CE

KM

Not convinced that this makes sense.
There are other points to be fixed.
Also remember the Helldrake in the former edition. Nobody objected.
So I voted for no. Yes is just for fools.

The hobby is about buying models and please, this is dangerously close to market research. Stop pls.

This is about changing GW to attend to their fan base. If you disagree with me, got no and don't reply.

MAZ III

A 13,000 subscriber change.org petition doesn't seem to have helped (https://www.change.org/p/games-workshop-limited-refocus-your-business-model-on-the-sale-of-a-game-and-support-of-a-gaming-community-vice-the-pure-sale-of-collectible-miniatures), neither have dozens of others.

Really if you like the 40K fluff but not the game, have a look at one of the dozens of alternative games to use your figures with. Don't waste your time hoping that a ruleset that been somewhat crappy for 25 years now is suddenly going to improve.

I hope you find success but a great many people have been trying to get them to fix things for nearly 15 years before it got as bad as it has. If you have a new tactic then go for it with gusto! But remember how many people that ,while they care, are also tired of their pleas falling on deaf ears. So many gamers retired from GW or minis games entirely that won't lend any support. You need something bigger than a petition or a boycott. We are talking about a company that shut down their social media to put on corporate earmuffs.

I like this in theory but your poll is too broad spectrum to prove... anything. You may get 100 people to sign because they want GW to listen, but 10 might want squats, 20 might dislike the new eldar because they're too strong, 20 might think new eldar are too weak etc.

If you want GW to listen to a point, you need to provide a point, a narrow focus campaign to highlight a specific issue. As it is the poll is along the lines of "Would you like money", EVERYONE likes money, but that doesnt illustrate whats going to change.

This is a futile endeavour. GW never listens.

Herzlos wrote:
A 13,000 subscriber change.org petition doesn't seem to have helped (https://www.change.org/p/games-workshop-limited-refocus-your-business-model-on-the-sale-of-a-game-and-support-of-a-gaming-community-vice-the-pure-sale-of-collectible-miniatures), neither have dozens of others.

Really if you like the 40K fluff but not the game, have a look at one of the dozens of alternative games to use your figures with. Don't waste your time hoping that a ruleset that been somewhat crappy for 25 years now is suddenly going to improve.

A-men.

GW don't care. Hell just look at the rumoured new eldar rules. GW could care less about how crap they have made 40k lack of rules.

"And then this person on Dakka Dakka showed us this poll demanding that we fix stuff..!"

Oh man, another "GW is evil and hates me, and doesnt listen" thread/poll/vote...
If people spent as much time practicing, researching and building competitive list as they do dissecting/complaining about GW as a business and how unbalance or over price everything is, they could be right up there with the big boys at tourney finales, lol.

Or try something else, infinity, snoremachine, monopoly...

But really this is one site, with a fraction of what GW's fan/customer base is. And the votes are already 2 to 1 on the "no" side.. let it go.

**see sig below...

Hey look another effective petition thread. Just stay quiet and pay up for the latest round of reissues.

Tsilber wrote:
Oh man, another "GW is evil and hates me, and doesnt listen" thread/poll/vote...
If people spent as much time practicing, researching and building competitive list

Well that's the thing, isn't it? That's the problem people have with GW and 40K. It's all about picking the overbalanced things out of the codex for your list and then buying the models of those things. Actual tactics and skill are tertiary, at best.

 Vermis wrote:

Tsilber wrote:
Oh man, another "GW is evil and hates me, and doesnt listen" thread/poll/vote...
If people spent as much time practicing, researching and building competitive list

Well that's the thing, isn't it? That's the problem people have with GW and 40K. It's all about picking the overbalanced things out of the codex for your list and then buying the models of those things. Actual tactics and skill are tertiary, at best.

No not really, what you described is part of the "thing", which isnt a problem at all for most, its one of three in my sig. There is nothing wrong with it, just like the tons of people who show up and play for the fun of the game using the fluff and background to build their armies and still have fun, regardless what they play against... then theirs the third category.

Then why are GW sales dropping, with 'imbalance' being one of the biggest complaints from those who say why they quit?

There are other ways to play competitively other than being good at min-maxing and exploiting the poor construction of an army list. Anyone can do that with a working knowledge of mathammer (eugh) and an internet forum to tell them what's what. Anyone can strategise with enough help and lead time before the event. So between 'competitive' lists it largely boils down to who's got the best overall faction at that point in the codex cycle, and who gets the best random dice rolls. That's some special display of skill and sportsmanship right there. Oh sure, someone somewhere might use an actual tactic (as opposed to a piece of listbuilding) to their advantage; but as you might agree, what with your championing of said listbuilding, that's not what the game is built for, right?
On that note, that the way the game is built as unsuitable for tournament play, to the point that even GW says it (with fanboys somehow using it as a justification) and dissolved their official tournament scene, should speak volumes by itself.

I'm skeptical about how many play 'just for fun', without a single care whether they win or lose. Especially not with the amount of money you have to lay down for an apparently frivolous mindset, and the constant need to keep up with the rules churn. You'll see people around who say they stick with older editions, but if the 'fun' demographic is one of the two big camps of 40K players, as per your sig, and if 40K is just 'fun' in any form, you'd think there'd be more. (On the other hand, given my first line in this post, maybe there are more. Maybe, as well as being a poor competitive game, 40K is just less... fun. )

Don't get me wrong, I play to have fun, The wargaming hobby would be a poor one if it wasn't fun. But in a reversal of one of GW's own mottos: "the point of the game is to have fun; the objective of the game is to win". I strongly doubt there are a majority of people who are perfectly happy being the eternal buttmonkey in games because they ignored mathammer to whatever degree, for whatever reason. I know I'm not one of them. I don't like losing because a game of almost pure strategy causes the viability of armies and individual army list choices to swing wildly, according to some strength vs. points cost metric, forcing me into a few narrow channels to be halfway 'competitive', or lose. I don't like losing because so many randomised events, small and large ones, swallow up most of what's left of any tactical recourse.

Heck, I don't like losing at the best of times, but I mind it a lot less when my loss is down to my own bad decisions on the tabletop (that I can fix, eventually) not because the game itself made those decisions before and during the fact. (which, as has been mentioned in this topic, is a lot harder to fix) Some of the games I've enjoyed most where when I lost, and those definitely weren't 40K or WFB. They were more balanced games.

I know that's a dirty word among GW fanboys, but as so many others have argued before, a hint of balance in 40K could only be a win-win situation. Competitive players would have a lot more choice in which armies and builds to use, and casual players would have a lot more viability with their fluffy, 'crappy' armies. Why the opposition to that?

What are the charts of sales dropping? Revenue for 40k has gone up i thought. Its fantasy that had huge drops, and end times was released to boost or reset from the crap I read. But honestly I could careless and none of us truly knows, we can read the magic box called the internet all we like.... Here in New England I see larger groups showing up for tournies and more people playing at FLGS along with the familiar faces.

The word " unbalance" is a term of opinion. If its a reference to me for being a fan boy or a reference in general, its still an opinion. Just like its an opinion to say ts the constant complaining and accusations that contributes to GW " rushing rules"

I know you keep saying so many people quit for so many reason of X. But its the same ole faces that are still investing time to write about how terrible GW is time and time again, and same people that still go out and purchase the product....

I personally think every book has a way to counter anything else. As for balance, I play right up there with the best of them, and have some self imposed restrictions like, no special named characters, no FW, no D, no formations, and recently using only 1 source and no allies. But if I see that someone has Draigo, and tiggy, and Scorpions guy who picks his own spells, I just laugh at why all those named big boys would show up to a small battle... But I play none the less and accept its in the rules.

If things are that bad, move on.
Ill refrain from continuing this part of our conversation, getting to far off topic.
I mean no personal offense with anything I said and take none.

Tsilber wrote:
What are the charts of sales dropping? Revenue for 40k has gone up i thought. Its fantasy that had huge drops, and end times was released to boost or reset from the crap I read. But honestly I could careless and none of us truly knows, we can read the magic box called the internet all we like.... Here in New England I see larger groups showing up for tournies and more people playing at FLGS along with the familiar faces.

GW numbers aren't divided by product. All we know is that GW sales are dropping as a whole and numerous third party resellers are saying that those drops are distributed across the whole range, both Fantasy and 40k.

Revenue for 40k as definitely not gone up though and most international tournaments have much less participants now than they had a few years ago.

I respect the OP's love of the hobby and the 40k game, and like most others on this forum, we share his frustration and wish him well.

But in all honesty, GW will print off that email and wipe their backsides with it.

Tsilber wrote:

No not really, what you described is part of the "thing", which isnt a problem at all for most, its one of three in my sig. There is nothing wrong with it, just like the tons of people who show up and play for the fun of the game using the fluff and background to build their armies and still have fun, regardless what they play against... then theirs the third category.

The thing is though, that GW games are by and large the mostly likely to hit a problem when #1 meets #2. I can take a fun list in Malifaux, Infinity or Bolt Action and still stand a reasonable chance against more or less anything, but if I take a fun list in 40K/WHF It's more than likely I'll spend most of the game putting models away again.

I kinda feel as though GW should remain stubborn, or continue to go their own way.

It almost seems like a bit of an identity for their company/brand, and I really do hope the angst/disgust will breed a fairly some upstart company to try and rival the 40k franchise.

At this point, any noise/press/competition/excitement is better than nothing. Tabletop gaming in general has really taken a dive where I live.

You can email, write, and stand outside GW HQ with a sign. They won't listen. Iam 40 years old and people have been complaining about GW since I can remember and nothing has changed. Same crappy rules, same op codex's , same old crap. If you want GW to change your going to have to do it with your wallet. Quit buying their crap, that's the only way they will listen.

Tsilber wrote:
What are the charts of sales dropping? Revenue for 40k has gone up i thought.

GW is a public company. They release financial reports twice a year. They're readily available on their website.

I'd rather see people giving their money to GW's competitors instead. The company doesn't deserve being fixed.

Even if GW plc listens , and agrees to 'fix' 40k.
How are you going to fix a rule set that has no idea what it supposed to be, beyond 'inspiring customers to buy' GW product?

GW aren't interested in their customers opinions. They are proud of the fact they don't do market research, it's otiose in a niche hobby such as wargaming. I don't know of any other company in the business that are as stubbornly uncommunicative and defensive towards their own customers, but that's their strategy probably because of some misconceived notions as to preserving the value of their IP.