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Sternguard cost roughly 22-24 points per model, depending upon the number of persons in the squad. (It's an even 23 per model for a 10 man squad). This is, of course, without improvements. To put this into perspective, thousand sons cost roughly the same amount, and get bolters with full range, no gets hot and AP 3.

So, when I read the special ammunition for the sternguard, pretty much all of the rounds make sense. Dragonfire rounds ignore cover. Makes sense. Hellfire rounds wound on 2+ regardless of thoughness. Makes sense. Kraken rounds get +6 inches of range and AP 4? Cool. Vengeance rounds, however...

I read from the 5th edition Space Marines codex:

"Originally designed to breach the power armor of Traitor Marines, vengeance rounds employ unstable flux core technology that makes them hazardous to use, but incredibly effective against armored targets."

18 inches. S 4. AP 3. Gets hot.

In practice, this makes them pretty much useless in most situations. These are high explosive rounds which are designed to breach power armor...but have the exact same strength as the other bolter rounds? IE, it's designed to to really pack the punch, so to speak, and breach power armor...but it can't punch through even a relatively lightly armored tank? And there's a chance that it will backfire!

And when I read the fluff, I am left thinking: "Y'know...this sounds a whole lot like a plasma gun anyways."

So, here's my proposal:

Change vengeance rounds to 24 range, S6, AP 2. Gets hot. Rapid fire. Increase sternguard veterans points cost to 30 points per model. Make a combiplasma a free upgrade.

omg newbie...i think you are paying points for flexibility when you get to choose ammo type before game starts but after deployment.

and tsons get an aspiring sorc tax along with 23ppm tsons.

 Filch wrote:
omg newbie...i think you are paying points for flexibility when you get to choose ammo type before game starts but after deployment.

and tsons get an aspiring sorc tax along with 23ppm tsons.

I'm not entirely sure what point you're making. Rephrase?

AP2 would be breaching terminator armor and not power armor at that point.

no go honestly.

Id say just make it lose gets hot. never really made sense to me. perhaps its at 18" because the bullets go dud by that range or whatever.

 Desubot wrote:
AP2 would be breaching terminator armor and not power armor at that point.

no go honestly.

Id say just make it lose gets hot. never really made sense to me. perhaps its at 18" because the bullets go dud by that range or whatever.

I'm still having difficulty seeing why vengeance rounds, which are, in essence, high explosive rounds, shouldn't have higher strength. If they're strong enough to blast through power armor, shouldn't they be able to breach at least some tanks and/or buildings? And make infantry explode better than regular bolter rounds? At least S6, AP 3, I'm thinking. No? Keep "gets hot."

Just remember the base line S4 bolter shell is already a high powered rocket propelled grenade. We think of them as the “meh” baseline, but compared to modern guns, they are hideously powerful.

Traditio wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
AP2 would be breaching terminator armor and not power armor at that point.

no go honestly.

Id say just make it lose gets hot. never really made sense to me. perhaps its at 18" because the bullets go dud by that range or whatever.

I'm still having difficulty seeing why vengeance rounds, which are, in essence, high explosive rounds, shouldn't have higher strength. If they're strong enough to blast through power armor, shouldn't they be able to breach at least some tanks and/or buildings? And make infantry explode better than regular bolter rounds? At least S6, AP 3, I'm thinking. No?

ST and Armor pen is not connected at all. and at that the AV system and T system is a mess as it is. Otherwise why is a mantacore missile not instagibing terminators when it can easiily hurt a landraider. but its ap4

ST is the ability to hurt the guy, the AP is the ability to bypass the armor.

You can have needles that punch straight through stuff but it generally wont knock a guy out unless its like poisoned or something. as well besides that if the majority of the force is being used to punch the armor, then there wont be as much force going into the main body.

 Nevelon wrote:
Just remember the base line S4 bolter shell is already a high powered rocket propelled grenade. We think of them as the “meh” baseline, but compared to modern guns, they are hideously powerful.

No, I fully understand this. Bolters are basically grenade launchers that explode after they penetrate the enemy. I get that. But if you read the fluff, it at least sounds to me like vengeance rounds are supposed to be even more explosive and powerful (thus the higher AP). Therefore higher strength, no?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:


ST and Armor pen is not connected at all. and at that the AV system and T system is a mess as it is. Otherwise why is a mantacore missile not instagibing terminators when it can easiily hurt a landraider. but its ap4

ST is the ability to hurt the guy, the AP is the ability to bypass the armor.

You can have needles that punch straight through stuff but it generally wont knock a guy out unless its like poisoned or something. as well besides that if the majority of the force is being used to punch the armor, then there wont be as much force going into the main body.

All of that basically sounds correct. I guess my argument hinges on the reason that vengeance rounds have higher AP. The reason for this, at least in this case, is, as I assume, because they are stronger, more explosive and cause a more powerful blast. I may be reading this into the text, but this appears at least to be insinuated, no?

Traditio wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Just remember the base line S4 bolter shell is already a high powered rocket propelled grenade. We think of them as the “meh” baseline, but compared to modern guns, they are hideously powerful.

No, I fully understand this. Bolters are basically grenade launchers that explode after they penetrate the enemy. I get that. But if you read the fluff, it at least sounds to me like vengeance rounds are supposed to be even more explosive and powerful (thus the higher AP). Therefore higher strength, no?

Dont forget its also how the energy is used.

You can drop a missile on top of a bunker and it will do gAK all, but give it a delay fuse to blow up after it goes underground and the whole thing is gone. same STR different AP.

As well reading on it further unstable flux technology sounds like it isnt a normal bolt shell at all. if anything its basically a mini melta that liquifies stuff on contact. sure it will hurt like feth but a SM can take losing a chunk of his arm and still be in combat.

One of the problems of a d6 based system is that there is not a lot of wiggle room to differentiate stuff. S4 is pretty normal, S5 is heavy bolters, and some high-end xenos guns. Generally anything larger then that is a big heavy vehicle mounted gun, or a specialized piece of hardware. Should bolters be able to kick out rounds of the same power as an assault cannon?

Sternguard are already one of the better units in the book, and very flexible. Lack of anti-armor is the one thing they can’t do out of the gate, and they can take c-meltas to deal with that.

Yes, they don’t live up to the fluff. But that’s hardly a new thing in the marine codex. If you want an in-universe fluffy marine, look to the old movie marine list. Sure, you pay 100 points a guy, but they live up to their reputation. But if you adhere to the lore, there is no way to make a army that’s going to be balanced on the tabletop.

 Nevelon wrote:
Just remember the base line S4 bolter shell is already a high powered rocket propelled grenade. We think of them as the “meh” baseline, but compared to modern guns, they are hideously powerful.

Not really. Modern guns wounds regular humans 100% of the time, not 66%.

Martel732 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
Just remember the base line S4 bolter shell is already a high powered rocket propelled grenade. We think of them as the “meh” baseline, but compared to modern guns, they are hideously powerful.

Not really. Modern guns wounds regular humans 100% of the time, not 66%.

HA ok that got me to laugh. damn you!

 Nevelon wrote:
One of the problems of a d6 based system is that there is not a lot of wiggle room to differentiate stuff. S4 is pretty normal, S5 is heavy bolters, and some high-end xenos guns. Generally anything larger then that is a big heavy vehicle mounted gun, or a specialized piece of hardware. Should bolters be able to kick out rounds of the same power as an assault cannon?

Sternguard are already one of the better units in the book, and very flexible. Lack of anti-armor is the one thing they can’t do out of the gate, and they can take c-meltas to deal with that.

Yes, they don’t live up to the fluff. But that’s hardly a new thing in the marine codex. If you want an in-universe fluffy marine, look to the old movie marine list. Sure, you pay 100 points a guy, but they live up to their reputation. But if you adhere to the lore, there is no way to make a army that’s going to be balanced on the tabletop.

Krak grenades are S6, AP 4. Why can't sternguard have an ammo type which is basically a krak grenade with slightly better AP and gets hot?

High explosives are blast weapons, usually.

What the unstable core does is punch through the armor and lets the relatively normal shell to explode inside a target unimpaired. The force of the explosion is not what is breaching the armor.

Its like a hotshot vs a lasgun. The lasgun will struggle to hurt an armored target, while the hotshot will melt through the armor and hurt the person in it. Just like the unstable core will deliver the explosive bolt into someone.

 Desubot wrote:

Id say just make it lose gets hot. never really made sense to me.

It says they're designed to kill PA guyz. Sternguard are PA guyz.

Traditio wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
One of the problems of a d6 based system is that there is not a lot of wiggle room to differentiate stuff. S4 is pretty normal, S5 is heavy bolters, and some high-end xenos guns. Generally anything larger then that is a big heavy vehicle mounted gun, or a specialized piece of hardware. Should bolters be able to kick out rounds of the same power as an assault cannon?

Sternguard are already one of the better units in the book, and very flexible. Lack of anti-armor is the one thing they can’t do out of the gate, and they can take c-meltas to deal with that.

Yes, they don’t live up to the fluff. But that’s hardly a new thing in the marine codex. If you want an in-universe fluffy marine, look to the old movie marine list. Sure, you pay 100 points a guy, but they live up to their reputation. But if you adhere to the lore, there is no way to make a army that’s going to be balanced on the tabletop.

Krak grenades are S6, AP 4. Why can't sternguard have an ammo type which is basically a krak grenade with slightly better AP and gets hot?

Why can't they? There's no reason that they can't, it just doesn't fit the description.

Vengeance Rounds are designed to breach armour. Nowhere does it say they do more organic damage to the guy on the other side of the armour, nor does it speak about them having an antitank function - both of which would be represented by a higher strength.

If you come across Imperial Guard, Hotshot lasguns are the same - a basic rapid-fire weapon with a massively increased AP value rather than an improved strength.
Consider Vengeance Rounds to be a sort of 'shaped charge' bolt - the same amount of explosive, but designed to produce a more focused lance to get through armour plate.

Secondly, making the statline too close to a combi-plasma would make the option of the combi-plasma pointless (although as long as it's better, it still shouldn't be free).

Also - unless I'm remembering wrong - Sternguard get all the ammo types simultaneously, and can chop and change on a 'per shot' basis, I thought?

Per round, yes.

Thats better than the combination guns chaos termi gets.

Well too bad for chaos then, they're not a part of this discussion

@BobNotTheHero, I stated that as a comparison like the op compared sternguard costs to Thousand Son so Yes KAY-OSS IZ PURT OV DIS CUSSIN!!! EYE IZ WEL LE VANT!

Traditio wrote:

I'm still having difficulty seeing why vengeance rounds, which are, in essence, high explosive rounds, shouldn't have higher strength.

Fluff =/= game rules. It's fine as it is.

If we're changing things based on fluff, bolters in general should be higher than S4.

Vengeance rounds absolutely serve a purpose already and are fine as is. They don't need a buff. I don't want my swiss army shooters to cost more, anyway. Increasing Vengeance rounds to be the end-all, be-all of Sternguard shooting would increase their cost per guy. Nopenopenope. Do not want.

Fair points all around. That said, I still vehemently agree with Desubot in this respect: the gets hot rule safely could be removed from vengeance rounds, leaving the rest of the ammo statline intact, with no need to increase their point value.

18 inches and gets hot makes this ammo practically unusable in the vast majority of situations. Either GW should increase the range to 24 inches, or else, remove the gets hot rule.

Filch wrote:omg newbie.

This is rude. Don't.

Traditio wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
AP2 would be breaching terminator armor and not power armor at that point.

no go honestly.

Id say just make it lose gets hot. never really made sense to me. perhaps its at 18" because the bullets go dud by that range or whatever.

I'm still having difficulty seeing why vengeance rounds, which are, in essence, high explosive rounds, shouldn't have higher strength. If they're strong enough to blast through power armor, shouldn't they be able to breach at least some tanks and/or buildings? And make infantry explode better than regular bolter rounds? At least S6, AP 3, I'm thinking. No? Keep "gets hot."

There are lots of instances of high strength and poor AP as well. It is just how different weapons are defined. Like most others here have said - a whole squad of rapid firing str6 ap2 would not be a good thing. Balance, such that it is in this game.

 rhinosaur wrote:
There are lots of instances of high strength and poor AP as well. It is just how different weapons are defined. Like most others here have said - a whole squad of rapid firing str6 ap2 would not be a good thing. Balance, such that it is in this game.

Balance? Really? We're playing the same game, right? Space marines strike me as pretty much the only balanced codex in the entire game.

Traditio wrote:

 rhinosaur wrote:
There are lots of instances of high strength and poor AP as well. It is just how different weapons are defined. Like most others here have said - a whole squad of rapid firing str6 ap2 would not be a good thing. Balance, such that it is in this game.

Balance? Really? We're playing the same game, right? Space marines strike me as pretty much the only balanced codex in the entire game.

exactly

Just so we're clear this is 40,000 years in the future... Normal humans would likely have a toughness of 2 before evolution and rampant mutation makes even our normal counterparts toughness 3(guardsmen). And bullets wound 100% if the time (if they hit) now, but your Dave isn't checking to see if you were hit, the "to hit" roll was for that. The wound roll is to see if you're dead or incapacitated. Plenty of people are shot in war zones and continue fighting till lack of adrenaline or blood loss drop them.

Do I feel numbers should match up with fluff better? Yes. But...gw is awful with rules. Just awful.