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Lets say you have a 100 man green tide, and you declare a charge against 2 units, one behind and one infront.

If you move and fight according to the assault move chargers rules you eventually end up with your unit in 2 separate groups, separated by a foot or more.

Is that right?

Also, after the battle do they have to spend any movement going toward each other back into coherency?

Just want to make sure I play it right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, do these 2 fights still count as 1 combat for results?

As far as I can tell...

1) Nothing in the charge movement rules seems to prevent this. Let's say you have 9 models and charge 2 enemies on opposite sides, which each have 4 models in range of chargers. Charge rules would force you to get into base-to-base with all 8 of them since that's the highest amount possible, so you'd end up with two units split. Then the last guy will run over to either one of these, trying to get into 2" from someone who is in base-to-base contact with an enemy, or else just trying to get 2" to someone form the same unit. So long as you follow the steps for charge movement correctly, there seems to be no problem.

2) Yes, after the battle establish coherency as first priority for all movement.

3) Yes, they still count as one combat. That's how a friend of mine lost his entire seer council because my Green Tide killed a bunch of windrider jetbikes on the other side of the map in the same combat. Orks are slow but if you roll a 1 for the initiative test and I roll 6... Splat.

After the initial charger has been moved, each further charger must end their move in coherency with a model that has already moved, while attempting to reach the enemy as best they can.

In any practical situation, this will prove impossible to charge two enemies in two separate directions.

Unahim wrote:
Nothing in the charge movement rules seems to prevent this.

Page 55, MULTIPLE COMBATS, CHARGE SUB-PHASE, CHARGE MOVE, Move Initial Charger. Looks like there is plenty.

 Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Unahim wrote:
Nothing in the charge movement rules seems to prevent this.

Page 55, MULTIPLE COMBATS, CHARGE SUB-PHASE, CHARGE MOVE, Move Initial Charger. Looks like there is plenty.

They also FAQed it so that you don't need to keep coherency

You must maintain coherency with a model that has already charged if possible. If it is not possible, you must still move as close to a previous charger as possible.

 Happyjew wrote:
You must maintain coherency with a model that has already charged if possible. If it is not possible, you must still move as close to a previous charger as possible.

This is true. I just looked up all relevent rules and FAQs. Basically, you have to maintain coherency or you can't charge a second target. Further, if it's at all possible for your model to make it to the primary target rather than the secondary target, they MUST charge the primary target. This severely limits how multi-assaults can be used, and requires careful planning and some overwatch/dice luck to ensure things fall into place properly.

I imagine there are a lot of people who don't follow the multiple charge rules very well, as they're pretty poorly written, and they kind of suck.

Unahim wrote:
3) Yes, they still count as one combat. That's how a friend of mine lost his entire seer council because my Green Tide killed a bunch of windrider jetbikes on the other side of the map in the same combat. Orks are slow but if you roll a 1 for the initiative test and I roll 6... Splat.

Just remember that they still roll leadership separately, and if any single unit that you're locked in combat with doesn't run, you can't perform any sweeping advances on the ones that did fall back.

As for OP, keep in mind that:

A charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target. Remember that the charging unit is not allowed to break its unit coherency, and this will obviously limit the potential for this kind of charge.

So you need to get as many b2b with the primary target (the one you shot at), then can move in to charge the second unit only if you maintain coherency. Keep in mind too that you aren't allowed to have a chain of guys just standing in between the two units.... all of the models need to get as close as they can get to their target, and models can only break coherency if it's absolutely impossible. So if you have:

XXXXXXXXX <enemy
OOOOOOOO><your guys

more than 2"

OOOOOOOO
XXXXXXXXX

This isn't allowed.... you're breaking coherency when you make this kind of charge, The only way you could do this is that if, even after your guys had charged both units, they had less than 2" between the two groups and all of the units had run as close to one of the targets as possible.>

A charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target. Remember that the charging unit is not allowed to break its unit coherency, and this will obviously limit the potential for this kind of charge.

So you need to get as many b2b with the primary target (the one you shot at), then can move in to charge the second unit only if you maintain coherency. Keep in mind too that you aren't allowed to have a chain of guys just standing in between the two units.... all of the models need to get as close as they can get to their target, and models can only break coherency if it's absolutely impossible. So if you have:

XXXXXXXXX <enemy
OOOOOOOO><your guys

more than 2"

OOOOOOOO
XXXXXXXXX

This isn't allowed.... you're breaking coherency when you make this kind of charge, The only way you could do this is that if, even after your guys had charged both units, they had less than 2" between the two groups and all of the units had run as close to one of the targets as possible.>

This is not true. Here is the scenario that allows a string of guys.

Starting positions (X = enemy, O = friend)

XX OOOOOOOOOO XX

Step 1 - Move Initial Charger (BRB pg. 452 in ebook, not sure in print)

XXO OOOOOOOOO XX

Step 2 - Charging models must move into B2B with models in primary target before secondary target. (BRB pg. 452 again) Note that I can pick any models I want here.

O
XXO OOOOOOOO XX

Step 3 - Now we have to follow the rules for normal assualt moves (BRB pg. 434). The next model has to move to within 2" of a model that already charged, so we move it 1.99999999" away from the ones that are in B2B.

O
XXO O OOOOOOO XX

Step 4 - If we can't get within 2" of a model that is in B2B, we maintain coherency (also pg. 434) Note that the FAQ says we don't HAVE to maintain coherency if we can't, but we have to try. So we string some more guys 2" away (only guys that didn't have sufficient charge move to bring them within 2" of a model that is in B2B)

O
XXO O O OOOOOO XX

Now we are building the chain that you said we couldn't. As long as we are only chaining models that 1)Can't get into B2B with the first unit and 2) Can't get within 2" of one of those models, we are free to make the chain and therefore charge the second target. If we're smart about it, we just make sure the chain is in place first and then put the final models in B2B with the second unit.

I do this all the time with TWC blobs, using cyberwolves to daisy chain to multiple targets. The large size of the TWC bases makes satisfying condition 1 easy. Only 2 or 3 TWC are needed to get every enemy model in B2B. This especially works if you are in a long, thin chain like I showed above with one unit on each end.

This is the one that makes the above difficult, however:

BRB wrote:
If a charging model cannot reach any enemy models, it must try to move within 2"
horizontally or 6" vertically of one of its own unit’s models that is already in base
contact with an enemy. If this is impossible, it must simply stay in unit coherency.

It has to be impossible for a model to get within 2" of another model that's already in base contact with the primary target before you can even begin forming the conga line towards the second target. I do notice a lot of players tend to overlook this when they try to multi-charge me. It never fails to cause frustration when I tell them they've been playing multi-charges wrong in their local games. Especially when that mistake causes their beefy CC unit to perform a completely unnecessary disordered charge, when they could have had all their charge bonuses had they known the correct rule.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
This is the one that makes the above difficult, however:

BRB wrote:
If a charging model cannot reach any enemy models, it must try to move within 2"
horizontally or 6" vertically of one of its own unit’s models that is already in base
contact with an enemy. If this is impossible, it must simply stay in unit coherency.

It has to be impossible for a model to get within 2" of another model that's already in base contact with the primary target before you can even begin forming the conga line towards the second target. I do notice a lot of players tend to overlook this when they try to multi-charge me. It never fails to cause frustration when I tell them they've been playing multi-charges wrong in their local games. Especially when that mistake causes their beefy CC unit to perform a completely unnecessary disordered charge, when they could have had all their charge bonuses had they known the correct rule.

I think that's a little wrong (though I may be misinterpreting what you're saying)
The rule for multi-charges is:
"If the initial charger successfully moves into base contact with the primary target, remaining models can charge models belonging to either the primary or secondary target units, as long as they follow the rules for moving charging models. That said, a charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target"

=> So long as all reachable models in the primary target are ENGAGED, the models may charge models in secondary target units. The rule you quoted says that you need to be able engage ANY enemy model, regardless of which target it is.
So you're right if you do need to do a big conga line, but if the distance between enemy models isn't very big all you need to do is make sure all reachable enemy models are engaged with on of yours (just engaged, not even BTB).




This move is a lot easier to pull off if you arrange your models in a V between the two enemy units, rather than in a line. Rolling short charge distances also helps
EG:

If you try this, you're probably going to be forced to move everyone towards enemy unit X. XXX 123456789 YYY If you change to this, models 4 5 6 are far enough away that they can't engage X or Y so they can form your conga line while 123/789 engage the enemy: XXX YYY 1 9 2 8 3 7 456 Model 1 charges target X first. Then 4 moves in to coherency with 1. 5 moves in to coherency with 4 (starting the chain towards Y). 6 moves near 5. Then 2/3/7/8/9 are free to charge whoever they want. XXX1 4 5 6 7YYY 23 89

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

BRB wrote:
If a charging model cannot reach any enemy models

That word is pretty important. Not "any enemy in primary target", but "any enemy".

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

BRB wrote:
If a charging model cannot reach any enemy models

That word is pretty important. Not "any enemy in primary target", but "any enemy".

You have to take the rules in entirety though. You have to stay in coherency with a unit that has already charged, so unless the secondary target is within 2 inches of the primary target, it would be difficult to charge the secondary target without breaking coherency with a model that has already charged. It's not just about staying in coherency with ANY model in the unit. That doesn't count.

@Trasvi: That quote was directly copy/pasted from the book. There is nothing to be wrong about in my post. It's a direct quote.

If you read the OP's question, he was asking about multicharging with a 100 man greentide formation.

This is absolutely, in no uncertain terms, not difficult at all.

use the first 40 greenskins to completely surround unit one out to more than 2" from those in btb, then charge unit two with the other 40 greenskins. Use the remaining 20 to make your conga line. Not hard. Ever.

 NightHowler wrote:
If you read the OP's question, he was asking about multicharging with a 100 man greentide formation.

This is absolutely, in no uncertain terms, not difficult at all.

use the first 40 greenskins to completely surround unit one out to more than 2" from those in btb, then charge unit two with the other 40 greenskins. Use the remaining 20 to make your conga line. Not hard. Ever.

Yep, that's what I do all the time with TWC. Big bases on the cav and the cyberwolves have the same effect as more bodies.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
so unless the secondary target is within 2 inches of the primary target,

About 7 inches with all small size bases.

First guy goes into primary target, which is on the edge of that unit. Second guy goes 2 inches from that guy, but towards second target. Third guy goes into second unit.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

First guy goes into primary target, which is on the edge of that unit. Second guy goes 2 inches from that guy, but towards second target. Third guy goes into second unit.

You can't do this. The second guy HAS to get into base to base contact with the primary target if it is possible. He can't just "go 2 inches from the primary charger, but towards the second unit", unless it is impossible for him to get into b2b with the primary target. Arranging such a small unit to be able to do this is next to impossible without incredible luck, as 1 inch too much on your charge roll and you won't be able to make your conga line.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

First guy goes into primary target, which is on the edge of that unit. Second guy goes 2 inches from that guy, but towards second target. Third guy goes into second unit.

You can't do this. The second guy HAS to get into base to base contact with the primary target if it is possible. He can't just "go 2 inches from the primary charger, but towards the second unit", unless it is impossible for him to get into b2b with the primary target. Arranging such a small unit to be able to do this is next to impossible without incredible luck, as 1 inch too much on your charge roll and you won't be able to make your conga line.

1 Inch will never be enough. My second guy will already be almost 3 inches further back (base size) than my first guy (since I moved him there on purpose). Not to mention he now would have to go around the first guy. That's more like 5-6 extra inches needed on the roll. Pretty unlikely.

Believe what you want. If I run into you in a tournament, I won't hesitate to stop you from moving models so a TO can come interpret the rule for you. I've done it plenty of times already.

Everything I said is exactly within the rules.

Yeah, them Eldar players need all the help from to's they can get.

Given you choose the order yo umove models after the first, it is incredibly easy to set up charges such that you can multi charge.

As a disclaimer, I have no idea what the rules or composition of this Green Tide Formation are. Are the 100 models technically in separate units? If so, is there some rule stating that they act as one, but maintain coherency, or must attack the same target? Such rules may prove very relevant to this debate.

Even if someone decides to throw a fit in the aforementioned manner, I think you can still do it, given that you have 100 models to work with, provided that you first saturate the front line of Target A such that you can't move any more units into base contact. If you were making a disordered charge against two units in the front like in Trasvi's diagram, that's what you'd do: saturate the front line of the primary target, then start spreading your offensive line horizontally to reach the second one. There's not rule that says that all units must move the full charge distance that you rolled, or that you must move them all along the same vector; I've never seen someone bring a protractor to a 40k tournament!

In summary:
-Charge the primary target until the front of that unit is saturated. By saturated, I mean that all reachable members of the target unit are somehow engaged; after that criterion is met, you can do whatever the heck you want with the remaining models in the charging unit.
-Start charging the secondary target
-Some boyz will end up standing still in the middle once targets are fully saturated. You can just leave a thin conga line in the center, which may play oddly, or you can spread them out.

Either way, let's take a step back and consider the spirit of the game. How is this unreasonable? Why wouldn't a huge mob of Orks charge in two directions to krump as many 'eads as possible? Even a discliplined Imperial unit or the Tyranid hivemind might see this bidirectional charge as a reasonable tactic. The disordered charge rules are sketchy, and ultimately there's going to be a lot of room for interpretation. It seems like one of those cases that will unfortunately have to be resolved on a case-by-case basis. Let's hope that your opponent is amiable and you can come to an agreement, or that you at least have a good TO to help sort things out. This seems like a good subject for an official FAQ.

[Edited for unintentionally harsh phrasing. I don't want anyone to feel attacked here.]

 Owain wrote:

-Charge the primary target until the front of that unit is saturated. By saturated, I mean that all reachable members of the target unit are somehow engaged; after that criterion is met, you can do whatever the heck you want with the remaining models in the charging unit.

The underlined portion is not true. You still have to move into coherency with a model that has already charged. But you're otherwise correct. So, you have to have enough models to completely cut off all possibility of any additional models from your unit engaging the primary target, THEN you have to have enough models to move in coherency of models that charged the primary target, and daisy chain models across to a secondary target. With 100 models, sure, I can see that happening easily. But these guys giving ecamples of it being easy to do with 3-5 models are just doing it wrong.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
But these guys giving ecamples of it being easy to do with 3-5 models are just doing it wrong.

Put up or shut up.

We've explained exactly how to do it. Your counterargument needs to specify what specific rules are being violated.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
But these guys giving ecamples of it being easy to do with 3-5 models are just doing it wrong.

Put up or shut up.

We've explained exactly how to do it. Your counterargument needs to specify what specific rules are being violated.

I already have. You just continued to respond as if you failed to read my posting of the rule directly from the book at all, so I assumed you weren't going to be reading any of my replies, and stopped putting more effort into replies directed at you personally. If you're that concerned with losing the argument that you absolutely MUST have an answer that refutes you, feel free to go back and read the thread. There are plenty. You have to follow ALL the rules for both basic charging, and the additional rules for multi-charges. That's a good place for you to start - With the book.

Mathematically, in most cases where the primary and secondary target are more than 2 inches apart - let's say they're 10 inches apart. If you've only got 3 models, unless your models are huge, it's mathematically impossible for you to make a multicharge between those 2 units, as you HAVE to:

1.) Get into base to base contact with the primary target if possible.
2.) If not possible, you must maintain unit coherency with a model that has already charged.

Any time you're moving a model, you need to check that models movement against the above two rules. If it's not following one of the above two rules, you're not doing it right.