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So my last two games I've played my opponent has gone first and wiped or neutered my Banshee squad. My last opponent suggested putting the banshees in a waveserpent and disembarking them into cover first turn since they are unlikely to obtain a first turn charge anyway. I was looking at my lists and the only way to feasibly do this would to take out my Avatar. I have always played footdar with the occasional jetbike squad and transport. Is loosing the fearless, rage, furious charge bubble for a alpha strike protection for my banshees worth it?

For my second question I plan on trying a 2 aspect host and dire avenger shrine formation list. So my options for warlord are Dire avenger with shimmer shield, Scorpion with claw, Banshee with Executioner, Shining spear with Star lance, Fire dragon with Fire pike, Spider with rifle, Reaper with EML or the Avatar if I don't switch it for a waveserpent. I'm leaning towards the Avenger with its 4++ or the Reaper in the back line. The traits themselves are better for the avenger but split fire would be amazing on the reaper.

I'd leave the Banshees on the shelf.
The same holds for Exarch upgrades.

 wuestenfux wrote:
I'd leave the Banshees on the shelf.
The same holds for Exarch upgrades.

Banshees are much better now. They're the second cheapest Aspect Warriors (after Dire Avengers), and now have a more reliable means of getting into combat and surviving to sweep a unit.

Exarchs are mandatory if you take the Aspect Host, and the increase in statlines, abilities, and wargear options is well worth their cost.

To the OP: with your list, an Autarch with suitable wargear would fill the role of Warlord quite nicely and cheaply. Still, I would prefer a Farseer for the psychic support. Yes, they are that good, and have only gotten better for their cost.

And then I can just drop all my formations and just take wraiths and bikes with scatter lasers.

While I do appreciate your opinion (thus making a thread and asking for it). I would rather you have an opinion on what I asked about.

@TheNewBlood: I agree, but I wanted to try a full aspect army and I could include an Autarch or an Avatar for the same fluff reasons but not a farseer. Aslo because of the new special rules the only squads that an Autarch doesn't hinder would be my spiders, spears, Dragons, and Reapers. Of those the Spiders and Spears get the most benefit and I did love using an Autarch with the shard in the spears unit but that is 143 points. So it would either be the Avatar, Autarch, or Waveserpent. and I feel the Avatar being able to buff multiple units rather than one is better than the Autarch and why I'm debating on him vs the serpent.

If your banshees are getting shot off the table your other threats should be landing. Your units are going to die playing footdar, but you should have enough threats so that it isn't that large of an impact on your strategy. The avatar is pretty much mandatory for footdar so keep that. A worthwhile upgrade for your non banshee assault units would be an autarch with mask particularly your spears.

 TheNewBlood wrote:


Banshees are much better now. They're the second cheapest Aspect Warriors (after Dire Avengers), and now have a more reliable means of getting into combat and surviving to sweep a unit.

Hah, you missed the part where they got wiped out turn 1. Reliable is perhaps not the right word.

To the OP: you might want to compleatly hide your banshees in/behind scenery to begin with, and let them stalk the home deployment area instead of rushing them.
I dont know what you are playing against, but lots of armies are fast enough to come to your back yard and try to grab objectives.
I dont agree HB have a reliable way to rush the enemies, but they do have superior reach if the enemies threathen your home objectives and precious dark reapers.
By turn 4 you could perhaps try an advance depending on if you have taken out those nasty guns that usually blow the HB away.

As for the warlord, you obviously care more for fluff than competetivity, so the avenger would probably be the better option, considering.
But the Avatar is a really great option for a foot list.

Edit: Are we playing against drop pods, this tactic should not sound strange.

You might want to consider fortifications. There are a few options which could work, this may not work for you due to not using a CAD though.
1) Bunker + escape hatch. The opponent will have to work through an AV14 building to kill the banshees and they will have a massive ~30" threat range for a first turn charge. The biggest advantage to this is the avatar can get a 3+ cover save from the bunker.
2) Aegis Defense Line + Avatar out of range for his fearless bubble. First turn you GtG behind the ADL for a sweet 2+ cover save. Then you move the avatar up so your units are fearless thus canceling the effects of GtG. The negative being that units will have to deal with difficult terrain turn 1 when they move through the wall but on the flip side they can benefit from the cover all game and the avatar is small enough he should get a cover save against most shooting.
3) Void shield generators (I 3D printed DoW2 CWE generators for this purpose...they are awesome). With a single generator with 3 shields it would be roughly equivalent to having them enjoy a waveserpent's protection until they leave the range. This would also help your avatar stay alive as well.

Some additional strategies are;
*Start key units in reserve. Taking an Autarch can really help here.
*Use swooping hawk units to blind your opponent's shooting.

1) you can't assault out of the escape hatch, but using a 55 point model that I can assault out of isn't a bad idea, but my enemy would have to move towards the access point for it to be worth it as I lose mobility.

2) would work till they killed the avatar in one round of shooting or shot some Ignores cover stuff at the banshees or barrage stuff.

3) also would work, is 10 pts cheaper than a serpent but the lose of jinking means that it is not as survivable.

Reserves is fine but I personally don't like my stuff in reserves as even with the +1 or rerolles they always seem to be stuck there till turn 4 and it prevents assaults till turn 3 at best. And if I can deal with my opponents army without my banshees till turn 3 or 4 then imagine if I didn't take them and upgraded other stuff. To make blind really useful I would have to spam hawks or take Barroth and wait till turn 2+.

I feel like your banshees are going to be shot off the table regardless if they start in a wave Serpent or not as there will always be a turn that you need to sit around and wait for the assault. That being said you are probably better off on foot, hugging Cover and Los blocking terrain. Use them more of a deterrent from the opponent moving up the board. Don't make it clear that they will be charging and that they are a threat.

As for other aspects warp spiders and reapers are probably the best. Swooping Hawks are pretty good too. I think a dark reaper exarch is probably the safest as you can just sit bad and hope it survives. The avatar looks like it would be a lot of fun if you have one already play around and see if you like it

I think this discussion might go better if we had some idea of what your list looks like. If there is 1 waveserpent and that is your only vehicle then it is probably pointless. Alternatively if you have warwalkers, a wraithknight, etc. then it would be tough to focus down. Still it is questionable whether spending points to protect a single unit of banshees is worthwhile. (which is why I recommended a bunch of stuff that would aid portions of your army).

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
1) you can't assault out of the escape hatch, but using a 55 point model that I can assault out of isn't a bad idea, but my enemy would have to move towards the access point for it to be worth it as I lose mobility.

Woops, yeah somewhere in my head I know that but every time I type I forget it. The bunker provides several advantages; 1) 3+ cover for units on or behind it. Your avatar becomes a lot more survivable with 3+ (or 2+ w/ nightfight) cover saves. The bunker can also be hold a unit of dark reapers, etc. if needed.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
2) would work till they killed the avatar in one round of shooting or shot some Ignores cover stuff at the banshees or barrage stuff.

This actually works really well even then. 1) Farseers and warlocks both get powers that give themselves fearless (farseers get a fearless bubble in fact). 2) Even if your units have to stay GtG the opponent should have had to waste a disproportionate amount of firepower to do so. This is really just a stop gap for the melee units to survive an alpha strike until you can buff the units up with your psykers and as a durability enhancer for your long range shooty units.

As for ignore cover and barrage. I would say they are welcome to fire their ignore cover and barrage into a unit of banshees. They could be firing into your other units instead, most of which cost significantly more or will be less durable. Again this is a strategy that gives a decent possibility for the banshees to survive without dumping 100+ pts into something that only helps the banshees.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
3) also would work, is 10 pts cheaper than a serpent but the lose of jinking means that it is not as survivable.

It also keeps the banshees capable of charging turn 1, helps the entire army, and will probably still be protecting units turn 2 unless the opponent takes them down. How useful this is is entirely dependent on what your list is like.

Kaela_Mensha_Khaine wrote:
Reserves is fine but I personally don't like my stuff in reserves as even with the +1 or rerolles they always seem to be stuck there till turn 4 and it prevents assaults till turn 3 at best. And if I can deal with my opponents army without my banshees till turn 3 or 4 then imagine if I didn't take them and upgraded other stuff. To make blind really useful I would have to spam hawks or take Barroth and wait till turn 2+.

Understandable. Reserves requires a certain play style and army setup. I have played a number of reserves based lists so I am comfortable coming in turns 2-4 and making it work. Honestly though a turn 4 charge is fine as long as it is a charge that matters, in fact that is about the only way banshees are going to see the end of the game. Were you expecting your banshees to cut down multiple units?

The hawks are extremely useful for more than just blind. However even if you just blind a single unit as long as it is a hard hitting unit that is a massive gain. Blinding a single unit of dev centurions, etc. could be game changing.


Keep in mind the strategies I am proposing are assuming you are taking your banshees in small units of sub 100 pts and hawks in similar ~100 pts units. Making 1 unit GtG or using markerlight on one of these units is pointless and will accomplish almost nothing. If you take these units in the craftworld warhost aspect shrines there is no reason to not MSU to an extreme. (unless you play KPs a lot)

 ansacs wrote:
I think this discussion might go better if we had some idea of what your list looks like. If there is 1 waveserpent and that is your only vehicle then it is probably pointless. Alternatively if you have warwalkers, a wraithknight, etc. then it would be tough to focus down. Still it is questionable whether spending points to protect a single unit of banshees is worthwhile. (which is why I recommended a bunch of stuff that would aid portions of your army).
banshees.

He listed aspect warriors bought in the aspect/avenger formations, and an Avatar; even dismissed the sugestion of a farseer as "not answering his question" because he plan to use one of the exarchs as warlord.
I would say his list is quite set and accounted for.
Also, there is no fortification slot in any formation, so that is probably not an option. (although, I personally like the shield generator idea).

 Fayric wrote:
He listed aspect warriors bought in the aspect/avenger formations, and an Avatar; even dismissed the sugestion of a farseer as "not answering his question" because he plan to use one of the exarchs as warlord.
I would say his list is quite set and accounted for.
Also, there is no fortification slot in any formation, so that is probably not an option. (although, I personally like the shield generator idea).

So we know he has an aspect formations and a dire avenger formation. However we don't know if he took as part of a craftworld warhost or alongside a CAD, which would be the only ways for him to get a LoW avatar (I am not sure how the OP plans to take a LoW without a slot, only using the 3 listed formations). I don't know about you but I don't even know what general pts level we are talking about (it could range from 750 pts to 4000 pts just from the 3 formations listed, I assumed ~1500 pts).

It is also a very different discussion whether a farseer is present and not used as the warlord or whether the formations are all that is being taken.

 ansacs wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
He listed aspect warriors bought in the aspect/avenger formations, and an Avatar; even dismissed the sugestion of a farseer as "not answering his question" because he plan to use one of the exarchs as warlord.
I would say his list is quite set and accounted for.
Also, there is no fortification slot in any formation, so that is probably not an option. (although, I personally like the shield generator idea).

So we know he has an aspect formations and a dire avenger formation. However we don't know if he took as part of a craftworld warhost or alongside a CAD, which would be the only ways for him to get a LoW avatar (I am not sure how the OP plans to take a LoW without a slot, only using the 3 listed formations). I don't know about you but I don't even know what general pts level we are talking about (it could range from 750 pts to 4000 pts just from the 3 formations listed, I assumed ~1500 pts).

It is also a very different discussion whether a farseer is present and not used as the warlord or whether the formations are all that is being taken.

If I don't replace the Avatar with the waveserpent would be going unbound. Which is also why I haven't just shot down adding anything because... well I'm undbound I can add anything that I want

pts 1850, and as Fayric said I am not including anything that is not somehow related to Aspect warriors. Also unless I re-wight most of my list adding anything to it (like a fortification) would require me to take out the avatar anyway. I'm not opposed to taking out the Avatar because that was the question I posed. Though I also don't see me adding a fortification over a serpent, for while it could protect more at the beginning of the game it loses out in maneuverability as the only unit that wouldn't be moving forward are the reapers who I would want as far back as possible.

So you're playing unbound? Perhaps we should start from the beginning by posting your current army list.

Well that is a surprise. I would have never though you were playing unbound.

hmm, TBH I am not sure you can take a formation detachment in an unbound army. The rules only give permission to take them as part of a battle forged army. Though if you get rid of the avatar then it would be a battle forged army. Any ways...

Do you usually play on reasonably terrain heavy tables? If so you could possible use a strategy solution rather than a change in list, per se. If you take a highly MSU force (min squads w/ exarch) then many of the units could just hide out of LoS or GtG in ruins and pop back up from the avatar's fearless bubble.

I feel that putting the banshees in a waveserpent is wasting more points on something that will struggle to meaningfully impact the game even when they get into combat. IMO the greatest strength of banshees is they are cheap and have movement bonuses that largely invalidate difficult terrain. Their actual damage is pretty poor even against their ideal target (though with furious charge and rage from the avatar that wouldn't necessarily be true). That is why I keep recommending things that could benefit the whole army as they would be putting points toward making the whole army function better rather than just the banshees.

I think you are confused on the rules, as I can take formations in an unbound list and still get all the formation specific benefits, and while I don't have an issue with MSU it is cheaper to add 4 or 5 more guys to a squad (outside of Spears and Reapers) than to make another squad with a bare bones Exarch.

Though you are correct that a VSG would benefit my whole army and while my points are 1850 occasionally (and I mean as often as I can talk my opponents into it) we play bigger games. So a 2000 pt list wouldn't be out of the question, in which case this whole thread is a mute point outside of what could make the army better.

Right on, there is an insert about it in the BRB...I never play unbound so didn't realize.

It is cheaper for you to take more models but also cheaper for your opponent to kill those models. IME the price reduction on the army building end isn't worth it (the price "increase" is actually a very good value for an exarch with their overall better equipment...more socrpion claws and sunrifles, pls). Whereas the opponent's price reduction to kill models is usually huge when talking about T3 models. There are only 2 really valid points to avoid MSU; 1) layering buffs is more efficient with large units and 2) you play a lot of KPs.

If you play unbound you might as well get a DE raider for the howlies.
Model looks beautiful, great but not OP rules, and you could paint it and make up a fluffy explanation to fit the aspect list. Also half the poins of a serpent

I realize its a bit of from your ambition of only aspect, but as you clearly has your list made around an idea (and I can respect that) you ought to be able to personalize the list a bit, and ad small pieces of fluff to, eh, forge a narrative, and make the units actually work.
The way I see it, you already forsake lots of great codex options, and even plan to go unbound for the sake of your list, so I think no one would say you just ad the raider for the assault vehicle cheese.