Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys. After getting some early help on the forums this is the revised list for my casual but not crap list.
I'm shooting for 1500 pts and I'm currently at 1440 pts. So Im looking for some suggestions to fill out the last 60 pts.

HQ
Librarian
ML3
135 pts

Troop
Terminators 5 man squad
1 hammer
1 psycannon
195 pts
Terminators 5 man squad
1 hammer
1 psycannon
195 pts

Elite
Purifiers 5 man squad
2 incinerators
Rhino
170 pts

Fast
Stormraven

Interceptors 5 man squad
1 incinerator
135 pts

Heavy
Dreadknight
Teleporter
Greatsword
Heavy psycannon
205 pts

Dreadknight
Teleporter
Greatsword
Heavy psycannon
205 pts

Should I give my terminators halberds? How about relics For the libby? Should I make cuts to fit a dreadnought model I have in?

Thanks for any help guys. Any tactical advice?

Sir, I would have:

Libby with Demonica book for the extra 1 on the santic table and a reroll of 1 on the manifest warp powers... (+25pts.)

Get the Hurricane bolters of the raven (this will count dividends when the 5 pen roll comes in and loose a weapon) (+30pts.) Run Twin Linked Melta and twin linked Assault cannon(rending)

To be honest, I also find the Heavy incinerators on the dreads far more useful/reliable, especially for the crowd control with torrent rule as opposed the psycannon. That or one with the psilencer... 12 shots with force... bye bye Khaine! (-10pts)

And finally... halberds are a must for me... I run 1 hammer, 1 falchions with the rest as halberds in each squad. (up to you).

Tactics wise, with this foot slogging list, I would really like to know who I was facing for the deepstrike... You have here a nemesis strike force, which could deepstrike and have have 'battle focus' on turn one. Useful, but risky due to needing a 3+ to get on the board. If facing a very mobile force, ie Eldar or Wolves, etc, I'd want all guns on the table from turn one; so no deep strike. Psycannons are okay, but only AP4 rending on the dreads... you are moving 12" anyway with ignore cover, so you are all over the place anyway.

Psychic powers: The dreadknights always need sanctuary... They are also the key to your army. Pick the right time to shunt the 30" (with no scatter) and they will take the punishment. Remember the master crafted and you will carve up units. The incinerator gets the soul blaze as well so keep that in mind also for the free hits!

I have also read the use of an inquisitor in the raven, where you then get servitor skulls. for 3 points a piece you can deploy them on the board and they in effect remove one of the dice from the scatter roll. Not tried that yet, but would help with the deep strike.

Finally, think about adding an assassin. enough said.

I like it. What do you plan to do with the Purifiers? You could try to roll them forward in the Rhino, or bring them in on the Stormraven. I'd probably go with the latter, and park the Rhino somewhere with a Cover Save on an objective.

I personally like having more Interceptors to Shunt forward or Deep Strike with the Dreadknights to take some of the heat off of the best shooting units in the army at the expense of having Purifiers.

I would not cut anything for a Dreadnought. They're 10 points shy of Interceptors with an Incinerator, and with 7th Edition being so dependent on the movement phase, I believe that would be much more useful than a Dreadnought.

The DLD is awesome for a Librarian, as JFC said. I would go with that or the Cuirass of Sacrifice. It boils down to if you want your Librarian to be more survivable, or better at casting Sanctic Powers.

By all means add Halberds to your Termies if you have the points after covering your necessities. I differ from JFC on this point in that I view Close Combat Weapon upgrades (aside from the Hammer) to be icing on the cake, while he takes them as a necessity.

My suggestion for your other 60 points:
25: DLD on the Librarian, will almost guarantee that he can Gate his unit of Terminators around and/or give them Sanctuary.

35: Possibly drop one Incinerator from the Purifiers so you can add a Heavy Incinerator on to both of your Dreadknights (40pts total).



Some points I disagree with JFC:

I believe the Grey Knights can make much better use of 30 points than a pair of Hurricane Bolters on a Flier whose other weapons are geared for anti-Vehicle shooting.

The Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon are appropriately priced for what they do. The Heavy Psycannon can harm anything, while the Heavy Incinerator is better at Light Infantry, but unable to harm higher than AV12. I personally prefer the usefulness of the Psycannon in all scenarios over the Incinerator's situational usefulness. I believe they're both much better than the Psilencer.

I wouldn't call that a "foot-slogging" list. I'd definitely Deep Strike the Terminators, (possibly deploy one with the Librarian if he has Gate of Infinity, and use that on turn one to guarantee turn 1 "deep strike" for that unit). The Interceptors and Dreadknights' Shunts/Deep Strikes would hardly count as foot slogging.

He did have a point with the 3+ reserves. You might possibly consider replacing the Purifiers and their Rhino with an Aegis Defense Line with a Comms Relay, manned by an Inquisitorial Detachment for re-rolling your turn 1 Reserve rolls, and providing 3 locations for reduced-scatter Deep Strike.

Aegis Defense Line + Comms Relay (70)
Inquisitor + 3 Servo Skulls (34)
2 shooty Servitors, Jokaero Weaponsmith (55)
6 point left over if you bought the extra 2 Heavy Incinerators and DLD

You should put the psycannons where you have incinerators and incinerators where you have psycannons.

That would make your list more solid.

 Akaiyou wrote:
You should put the psycannons where you have incinerators and incinerators where you have psycannons.

That would make your list more solid.

Please don't troll people looking for good advise.

The Psycannon is the most versatile Special Weapon in the Codes when placed on Relentless models, which makes it hands down the best option for Terminators. However the 24" Salvo profile makes it useless for PAGK. They lose a Nemesis Force Sword and their ability to charge after firing the weapon, and it can only be fired by them from within charge range. PAGK should NOT take the Psycannon until it gets a complete overhaul in the next edition, assuming GW doesn't screw it up more.

The Incinerator is the only Special Weapon to have for Interceptors. Being Jump Infantry they have the mobility to get those templates where they can do the most damage. Not many units in the game are better than Jump Infantry for getting their Templates to the enemy. And better yet, the Incinerator only costs them 5 points.

Purifiers could only make use of the Psycannon as a static gunline, and even then the 24" range means the enemy would have to be polite enough to walk into their field of fire. A far better option would be to give them Incinerators, and park them behind Promethium Relay Pipes. That Torrent on AP4, Ignores Cover will clear out light infantry easily, and can even clear out passengers from Open-Topped transports.

I wasn't trolling I actually meant to give the purifiers psycannons and give the knights incinerators.

Which is an upgrade to what he currently has.

 Akaiyou wrote:
I wasn't trolling I actually meant to give the purifiers psycannons and give the knights incinerators.

Which is an upgrade to what he currently has.

By "Knight" are you referring to the Dreadknight (they're all Grey Knights)? If so, the Heavy Psycannon and Heavy Incinerator are appropriately priced for what they do. Switching out a Heavy Psycannon for a Heavy Incinerator isn't an upgrade, it's shifting it towards filling a different role by making it much better against light infantry, but worse against just about everything else (can't harm AV13+, lower chance of scoring an unsaved Wound on higher Toughness enemies, etc).

If you meant Terminators, then no. They are the only unit that makes good use of the regular Psycannon, as being Relentless makes them able to always use all 4 shots at 24", and they're allowed to assault afterwards. The Incinerator would reduce that to about an 8 inch range, that doesn't rend. Same as the Dreadknight, the Incinerator is a specialized anti-light-infantry weapon where the Psycannon is a good general purpose weapon. Being as limited as the Grey Knights' shooting is, they need as much versatile shooting as they can get.

So either way, I don't see the benefit of demoting the Psycannons to Incinerators.

As for giving Purifiers Psycannons, were you planning on them moving at any point? Any time they move they have a 12" range and only 2 shots with it, and it prevents them from charging. Even if they're stationary, they only get 24", which means that knowing they're there, the enemy has to deliberately come into range to be fired upon. By putting Psycannons on them, you're designating them to be a ranged unit that should never get into close combat, as you've drastically reduced their overwatch potential, and they only have 3/5 models with AP3, while the others are AP-.

Relentless Grey Knights make far better use of the Psycannon than PAGK, and with the Salvo profile, PAGK get much more out of the Incinerator than they get out of the Psycannon under most scenarios (a unit embarked in a building for the entire game would be an exception), and the Incinerator is notably less expensive than the Psycannon.

I really do not understand how you consider switching the Incinerators and Psycannons to be good for the army.

Ok mr pro at grey knights since you seem adamant about having this discussion and proving yourself an authority in 40k Grey Knights show me some comparisons of how amazing the heavy psycannon is on a dreadknight

It is NOT better than the incinerator the heavy psycannon lends itself to a long range kind of fighting and is NOT a good tank hunting weapon the statistic fail you.

Purifiers with psycannons has been a stable of GK for years now, they dont need to move they get to the middle of the board sit comfortably mowing down gak with psycannons. Purifiers are VERY WELL suited for gunline play at mid range.

But hey if you want to show me your math hammer and convince me otherwise feel free. Because i have played GK since their old codex and in my experience this is undisputably better and was reflected in everyone using the same load outs because it was simply a better option. Purifierwing was a thing when you could make them troops, very successful too!

Dreadknight as a monstrous creature does not want to be standing around as a gun platform specially for such an underwhelming gun such as the heavy psycannon. Get over yourself, and off your high horse sir, if i have my dreadknight close enough to smack something with the incinerator then i am more than likely within range to assault. In an edition which so much cover saves, denying cover and mowing down specialized infantry units of several of the top armies is far better than the opposite of that.

Show me the math bruh

 Akaiyou wrote:
Ok mr pro at grey knights since you seem adamant about having this discussion and proving yourself an authority in 40k Grey Knights show me some comparisons of how amazing the heavy psycannon is on a dreadknight

All right smart aleck. I never claimed to be a pro 40k aficionado. What I've stated has been pretty much common knowledge regarding the Grey Knights for a while. You're the one making wild claims that are starkly contradictory to what I myself and the others I've conversed with have experienced.

I'll give you some math

Lascannon (pretty standard for tank-hunting, If you say it is a terrible Tank-Hunting weapon, I'll feel obliged to ignore whatever follows).
Vs AV12: (1)(2/3)(1/6) + (1)(2/3)(1/2) = 2/18 Glancing Hits, and 2/6 Penetrating Hits
Total 8/18 = 4/9 Hull Points taken, and 2/36 = 1/18 Explodes! results.

The Heavy Psycannon which you claimed is:

It is NOT better than the incinerator the heavy psycannon lends itself to a long range kind of fighting and is NOT a good tank hunting weapon the statistic fail you.

Vs AV12: (6)(2/3)(1/6) + (6)(2/3)(1/6) = 12/18 = 2/3 Glancing Hits, and 12/18 = 2/3 Penetrating Hits
Total 4/3 Hull Points taken.

The Heavy Psycannon deals statistically 3 times the number of Hull Points against AV12. Your claim that the Heavy Psycannon is not a good tank hunting weapon statistically is bunk.

But while I'm at it, let me show you how the Heavy Incinerator fares against an enemy AV12 Vehicle
(1)(1/6) = 1/6 Glances. Nothing else. If you're looking for a weapon that is definitely NOT anti-vehicle, look no further than the Heavy Incinerator, but the Heavy Psycannon is better than the Lascannon against Vehicles.

Purifiers with psycannons has been a stable of GK for years now, they dont need to move they get to the middle of the board sit comfortably mowing down gak with psycannons. Purifiers are VERY WELL suited for gunline play at mid range.

Psycannons have been a staple of the Grey Knights since Daemonhunters. That is, they have been up until 7th Edition when they were nerfed to pieces for any non-relentless unit firing them. But you've failed to acknowledge that the Psycannon is not the same weapon from edition to edition. It being the backbone of the Codex in the past is a reason it should remain useful, but is not an argument that it has remained so.

Throughout 6th Edition, Purifiers could roll across the battlefield in Rhinos blasting away with Psycannons firing at 24" out of the Firepoints. But now, in 7th, several Codexes have Melta, Plasma, and Haywire coming out of their ears, which turns Rhinos into paper bags full of dead infantry, and the Psycannons only have a 12" range if the unit moves. The tactics of 5th and 6th Edition Grey Knights do not work with 7th Edition's meta.


By my counting, you are objectively wrong on all counts. I showed you the math for the first argument (this suffices to prove my point). If you still think you're right, the burden falls to you to prove it. Post a video battle report of your suggestions performing well and link it here.

PS:

 Akaiyou wrote:
Dreadknight as a monstrous creature does not want to be standing around as a gun platform specially for such an underwhelming gun such as the heavy psycannon. Get over yourself, and off your high horse sir, if i have my dreadknight close enough to smack something with the incinerator then i am more than likely within range to assault. In an edition which so much cover saves, denying cover and mowing down specialized infantry units of several of the top armies is far better than the opposite of that.

You do realize the Dreadknight is relentless? And as a JUMP Monstrous Creature (12" movement, and a once per game 30" shunt that does not reduce his shooting capabilities), he doesn't have to stand around for shooting anything. Interceptors are perfectly capable of getting Incinerators in position to deal with light infantry in cover, so that isn't a necessary role for the Dreadknight to fill. But the Dreadknight is capable of taking on Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles at range reasonably well (if you give him the Heavy Psycannon), which PAGK are not.

And if you'd payed attention, my suggested Dreadknights have both the Heavy Incinerator and the Heavy Psycannon. Both weapons are useful and worth their points, but the Heavy Psycannon is more expensive because it can do so much more against so many enemies. So if a Dreadknight gets only one gun, it should be the Heavy Psycannon in most scenarios. And even if you plan to put your Dreadknight into close combat, it serves him well to be able to soften up the enemy unit with a ton of shooting before they get a chance to strike back at him.

Ok you are clearly a noob so i won't be too harsh on you. I should've known from your number of posts in dakkadakka that you can't possibly have been playing this game beyond 6th edition.

So let me enlighten you bruh

For starters lets quote your nonsense shall we?

Lascannon (pretty standard for tank-hunting, If you say it is a terrible Tank-Hunting weapon, I'll feel obliged to ignore whatever follows).
Vs AV12: (1)(2/3)(1/6) + (1)(2/3)(1/2) = 2/18 Glancing Hits, and 2/6 Penetrating Hits
Total 8/18 = 4/9 Hull Points taken, and 2/36 = 1/18 Explodes! results.

Heavy Psycannon:
Vs AV12: (6)(2/3)(1/6) + (6)(2/3)(1/6) = 12/18 = 2/3 Glancing Hits, and 12/18 = 2/3 Penetrating Hits
Total 4/3 Hull Points taken, and 2/18 = 1/9 Explodes! results.

The Heavy Psycannon deals statistically 3 times the number of Hull Points against AV12, and has double the chance to cause it to Explode! Your claim that the Heavy Psycannon is not a good tank hunting weapon statistically is bunk.

You just said the heavy psycannon can make a tank explode?? Someone has clearly NOT read the rules. So let me show you how things actually work in 40k.

First we read the rules. If we don't understand them we ASK others in a lovely site such as this one, because hey everyone gets it wrong now and then specially when you've been around for several editions.

Here is what RENDING actually does and please read CAREFULLY

[img=http://s12.postimg.org/6tizirz6h/rendingdumbass.jpg]

This is in YOUR RULEBOOK look it up under special rules. Rending does NOT count as AP2 against vehicles. Meaning you can NEVER make a vehicle explode with a psycannon EVER!

Look up vehicle rules and please please for the love of God, call your buddies whom you have so much discussion with and whom all apparently don't know the rules of 7th edition 40k and tell them all to sit down and read Vehicle damage table which makes it really hard for vehicles to be blown up. And then read the special rules ALL of them as im sure there must be others you lot have been playing wrong.

Just like you said that if i consider the lascannon you can't consider reading anything i say past that, well looks like you are the one looking quite silly making claims while lacking rules knowledge. Funny how that works out right?

The heavy incinerator is and will remain to be a better option for dreadknights, as a monstrous creature it can easily crush just about any vehicle in CC, with it's mobility and ability to deep strike getting close enough to punch a vehicle is EASY. The incinerator lets you clear out infantry which you DO NOT do well against when en masse, not to mention that it's pure death on top armies like eldar and tau. Also does a hell of a number of nids, orks and astra militarum and everything else inbetween with a 4+.

The argument has never been how good the incinerator is against vehicles, the FACT is that the psycannon just isn't all that and it is NOT a better option for a dreadknight which is my argument. Let the infantry carry the psycannons

By the way YOU'RE WELCOMED! On clearing up that little misunderstanding with the rending special rule that you had.

Yikes!

RULE #1 everyone - thanks!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

Rule 1: Be Polite
This seems obvious, however many folks can sometimes forget that common courtesy goes a long way to lending respect to both you and your opinions. Just because you don't see the other users' faces doesn't mean they don't have feelings and won't be hurt by rude comments or offensive images. When you see something that you find silly, rude or insulting first assume that perhaps there is more to it than you initially thought. Look at it again, keeping in mind that tone and inflection is difficult to convey in a visual format. It may be that the person is attempting a joke or is exaggerating on purpose. It is best to politely request clarification before accusing someone being ignorant, a liar, or worse.

If after clarification you still disagree with the person then politely outline your points. Try to avoid name-calling or even implying insults wherever possible. These tactics generally only inflame a situation and lead to what are known as "Flame Wars." Whenever a flame war starts it usually ruins a perfectly good discussion. Others will lose interest in the thread and the site in general if this kind of interchange becomes a common occurrence.

Please remember that posting and reading online is a visual format and as such the spelling, grammar and look of your posts is the only way others understand what you are saying. Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.

It also should go without saying that swearing, profanity, sexual references, etc, are strictly forbidden, including all images that are posted on or uploaded to our site. Remember that we have users of all ages and that Dakka should be a welcoming place for everyone to enjoy.

Akaiyou, the only flaw you found in my argument was a change to Rending which my gaming group missed, and that doesn't really impact my argument. It may be unable to explode a target, but it still has increased odds of getting any of the other damage results over the Lascannon, and still statistically deals 3 times the number of Hull Points that the Lascannon is capable of.

Everything else stands. The Heavy Psycannon is still good at taking down vehicles relative to many other weapons in the same role, even having to glance them to death.

I never said the Heavy Incinerator wasn't good. What it does, it does very well. But the Heavy Psycannon is more versatile.

You did not link the Battle Report I requested that supported any of your claims. In the future, please provide evidence for your arguments instead of simply insulting the opposition.

Lol give up man call a truce, you aren't worth having a discussion on rules with

 Akaiyou wrote:
Lol give up man call a truce, you aren't worth having a discussion on rules with

You have failed to show the Heavy Psycannon to not be a good weapon on Dreadknights, or to show the standard Psycannon to be a good weapon on PAGK. And you haven't shown the maturity to even ask for a truce without throwing in a couple of last insults. I yield nothing.