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As an Eldar player and after really thinking about i thought of this, i think you should consider this as a compromise to satisfy both sides in your games.

D-cannons, Heavy/Wraith cannon go back to to Str 10 AP2 6′s to wound = instant death and 6′s to pen = D3 hull points instead of 1 + damage result and saves are allowed at all times.

Heavy D-Scythes & D-Scythes get changed to Str4 Poison 4+ AP2 6′s wound = Instant Death and 6′s to pen = Automatic penetrating Hit Saves allowed as usual.

Wraith Knight increase in points by 25pts and its sword remains Str D

And 1 special weapon for every 3 jet bikes is what its always been for 10pts and so no Eldar player would contest this being fair along with all the other bonus’s they get with there new formations

and even with all those half arsed nerfs your providing your Eldar codex is still head and shoulders above everyone else.

I'd also bump ScatterLasers up to 15ppm.

And would 50 or 25 be the better number for the WK?

This is a serious post Mr Ghazkuul, by the looks of things your an Ork player so let me just remind you that every Eldar codex has been head & shoulders better than any Ork codex. I hope you cry as much when the new space marine codex comes out next month as by then more Eldar will less eager to discuss any Nerf's.

Also when it comes to what i think is fair with the wraith knight 25pts increase is more than fair with the above changes to wraith weapons, With weapons using unmodified rule sthe wraith-knight could go up in points by 50 making the Heavy wraith-cannon variant with twin scatter cost 375pts

Hettar wrote:
every Eldar codex has been head & shoulders better than any Ork codex

If it doesn't bother you why do you want to 'fix eldar' in the first place?

Well i have this thing called a conscious so it makes me feel bad when i think some thing it too powerful, so where i'm will to self Nerf my army myself i am not prepared to make it worse than it previously was, but with a lot of the debates on what things should and shouldn't be you can give and an inch and they have to try to take a mile, compromise means a deal where both party are equally dissatisfied but all this talk of your still way too powerful is self defeating as you change a mindset from reasonable to hostile

I think it's obvious that WK's current incarnation is plain insulting. If you return to regular non-D weapons, let's see what you get.

It used to cost 240 pt which was allready a REALLY good price for a t8 6 wound Jump MC with s10 all around.

Now it's a Garganaught which is a huge buff on itself. Partial immunity to ID, FNP, IWND, Stomps, almost full immunity to poison and sniper weapons. This alone costs some points. I think that if you take a 6-th ED WK and simply make it Jump GMC, it should cost 320 pt at very least.
If you want to keep a S: D sword that hits at ini with a 5++ shield , add another 20-30 pts even having exchanged it for 2 cannons. And it's gona still be cheap.

Compare to a S: D thirster that hits at ini1, is just t6, 5 wounds and is not immune to ID, poison, stomps, can't stomp itself. It costs 275 pts.

I think that a WK with S: D axe should cost around 350 pts and around 320 pt with s10 cannons. Than it'd be close to ballanced. Still really good but not broken anymore.

Gargantuan creatures do not come with IWND

I'm with koooaei. 350 points for the WK without D sword, 380 with D sword.
See, a IK is 375 points. Has a 2 shot battle cannon and a D-sword. And even than it is so good lots of people take one in their army.
That 4++ shield does make up for FnP, but it still can loose 4 HP against a single melta and haywire will kill it with ease, and it does not have a save in CC.

A WK for under 350 points it plain insulting. With ranged D-weapons it should clock around 400 points.

A WK should be so many points, that 50% of all Eldar players will say: "no, too expensive" THAN it cost's the right amount of points. If it's an auto include, it's obviously too cheap.

After playing some 5 battles against the new Eldar (winning 1 with Khorne Daemonkin and losing 4 with Tau and AM), I would say that the codex is mostly OK. The odd things are easy to fix too:
- Eldar jetbikes give an 5+ armor save like their DE counterparts.
- Phoenix armour gives an 5+ invulnerable save.
- Shuriken cannons and scatter lasers cost 15 ppm for Windriders.
- Rangers and Shining Spears cost 2 points less per model.
- Shining Spears gain an offensive unit power (something like +2S and +2I at charge) instead of Aerobatic Grace.
- Fire Dragons, Wraith Guard and Warp Spiders cost +2 points per model.
- Warp Spiders can use Flickerjump only once per enemy Shooting phase. Like, god dammit, infinite Flickerjump gave me cancer.
- Vypers can take support weapons.
- Warlock Conclaves start at 3 Warlocks.
- Wraithknights are Jump Monstrous Creatures again.
- Wraithlords can take heavy D-scythes instead of the ghostglaive.

And pretty much that's it. In my experience, the D weapons are kinda 'meh' without an entire army built around them, and Scatterbikes are okay-ish without the 3+ armor and the slight cost increase.

Well its best i stop being reasonable at all, i am glad that you guys are not in charge of writing my codex, again we give an inch and the internet wants a mile so actually from now on when i play in my local GW store i wont feel bad for using it as it has been written as haters always gotta hate i guess, bring on the SM codex i hope its loaded with grav and D weapons .

Eldar fixing Eldar
Giving An Inch aka Eldar Still Roflstomping Everyone But Eldar Players Not Feeling Bad About It Anymore.

It very clear to me that your blinded by your wraith-knight hate, you do not even want to discuss what i said about wraith weapons and still carry on regardless hating on the wraith-knight its like 4/5's does not exist, typical knee jerk reactions and i'l leave you with this little bit of Advise, if you do not like like the way 40K is going then you should jump ship now as codex by codex the power ratings are going to fluctuate wildly so that some army's wont have a hope against others of the grounds of that's what happens in the fluff. 40K is not a competitive Game any longer rather its becoming a fluff driven game with random rolls of the dice to effect the narrative.

I don't know about you, but I will not change the rules....I'll change my list. Keeping up with all this "drop this option, bump this points cost, etc" is BS.

If you and I are playing and you cant stand the WK as he is via the codex, I would rather just play a different army list than "comp" it. In casual games, this is what you are SUPPOSED to do. Play for fun, dang it

However, if we are playing in a tourney, too bad. Learn how to shoot the bikes off the table (via units in drop pod, or Nid-pods, barrage, etc) trust me, they die quick to that stuff. WK die to fast unit with invuls. Thunderwolves & Necron Wraiths can easily catch & tie-up a WK and can even kill it.

 Galef wrote:
I don't know about you, but I will not change the rules....I'll change my list. Keeping up with all this "drop this option, bump this points cost, etc" is BS.

What if the Eldar player doesn't want to change his list because he has all the fun in the world with his 5 WKs/fivebazillion scatterbikes/Warp Spider host? On what basis would you ruin his fun by forcing him to change his list?

Easiest thing for everyone these days is just use the Eldar Cheesedex fules for all armies - fixe all balance issues and spend the time forging the narative..........

might be fun coming up with substitutions

Be quite fun to play Penitent Engines using Wraith Knight rules

 Mr Morden wrote:

Be quite fun to play Penitent Engines using Wraith Knight rules

I hope SisterSydney will read this .

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't know about you, but I will not change the rules....I'll change my list. Keeping up with all this "drop this option, bump this points cost, etc" is BS.

What if the Eldar player doesn't want to change his list because he has all the fun in the world with his 5 WKs/fivebazillion scatterbikes/Warp Spider host? On what basis would you ruin his fun by forcing him to change his list?

Someone who cant realize that their "fun" is not fun for the other player, should be shunned and refused games. Don't ban/restrict the codex, ban/restrict the players that abuse the codex. I personally don't have fun stomping my opponent (unless they are d-bags) in casual pick-up games.

However, everytime I tone-down my list for a "friendly" tournament, some guy brings some random hard counter or gimmicky list. Tourneys=bring your hardest list: it is up to the TO to make restrictions. Friendly games should be friendly and you should always take about your lists before rolling dice.

Hettar wrote:
It very clear to me that your blinded by your wraith-knight hate, you do not even want to discuss what i said about wraith weapons and still carry on regardless hating on the wraith-knight its like 4/5's does not exist, typical knee jerk reactions and i'l leave you with this little bit of Advise, if you do not like like the way 40K is going then you should jump ship now as codex by codex the power ratings are going to fluctuate wildly so that some army's wont have a hope against others of the grounds of that's what happens in the fluff. 40K is not a competitive Game any longer rather its becoming a fluff driven game with random rolls of the dice to effect the narrative.

Well, you got my point of view on it's price with detailed explanations and comparisons. Your reaction is confusing me. You want to fix eldar without making them ballanced compared to other armies? How's this even possible...

 Galef wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't know about you, but I will not change the rules....I'll change my list. Keeping up with all this "drop this option, bump this points cost, etc" is BS.

What if the Eldar player doesn't want to change his list because he has all the fun in the world with his 5 WKs/fivebazillion scatterbikes/Warp Spider host? On what basis would you ruin his fun by forcing him to change his list?

Someone who cant realize that their "fun" is not fun for the other player, should be shunned and refused games.

You do realize that this stands for both players in the scenario? One's fun is not fun for the other player. Should they hate each other eternally or what? Like, dude, you are now encroaching on some pretty high-end self-righteous TFG sh*t... The guy with the 5 WKs has the same right to have fun as his opponent. Who are you to condemn him?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
and even with all those half arsed nerfs your providing your Eldar codex is still head and shoulders above everyone else.

look here, he is providing positive suggestion to balance eldar from being too op. This is small step in the right direction.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I don't know about you, but I will not change the rules....I'll change my list. Keeping up with all this "drop this option, bump this points cost, etc" is BS.

What if the Eldar player doesn't want to change his list because he has all the fun in the world with his 5 WKs/fivebazillion scatterbikes/Warp Spider host? On what basis would you ruin his fun by forcing him to change his list?

Someone who cant realize that their "fun" is not fun for the other player, should be shunned and refused games.

You do realize that this stands for both players in the scenario? One's fun is not fun for the other player. Should they hate each other eternally or what? Like, dude, you are now encroaching on some pretty high-end self-righteous TFG sh*t... The guy with the 5 WKs has the same right to have fun as his opponent. Who are you to condemn him?

There will obviously be a process. If the first time you and the Eldar player face-off and he says "I have 5 WKs, are you ok with that?" You say, no thanks, then he says "But no one will play my list". You then have the option to say "Don't play 5 WKs and you might get in games" or you can take the high road and say "Let me put together a list that stands a chance at playing, could you drop at least 1 or 2 WKs?"

I am not saying just refuse games because someone brings 5 WKs. I am saying don't play someone who refuses to change their list after a friendly conversation about why I might not be fun for both players. If someone can "only" have fun by playing 3-4 WKs and a bunch of scatterbikes, then you have the right to "politely" say no thanx, find another opponent. After enough people do this, that kind of player stops having fun (cuz he isn't getting games) and either changes the list, or decides to play Warmahordes instead.

Most tourney only allow 1 LoW and people will always abuse the rules in tourney, so you should expect the worst kinds of lists in that kind of environment.

 Galef wrote:

There will obviously be a process. If the first time you and the Eldar player face-off and he says "I have 5 WKs, are you ok with that?" You say, no thanks, then he says "But no one will play my list". You then have the option to say "Don't play 5 WKs and you might get in games" or you can take the high road and say "Let me put together a list that stands a chance at playing, could you drop at least 1 or 2 WKs?"

...and at this point, you are actively ruining the other guy's fun. Congratulations, you are now as close to being a TFG as one could be.

The best solution to this problem is not this, but to tell the guy: "OK, you can bring the 5 WK, but they are Monstrous Creatures." This way, everyone is happy: the guy can play his 5 WK list and have his fun doing so, and you have a chance against them and have your fun. Everyone wins.

@Hettar: My first post was a serious post and it wasn't hate filled.

Eldar in 6th edition and into 7th were top 3 easily, you guys had some broken units with the Transport shield stupidity being the worst. In this new codex every unit in your dex except the Wave serpent GOT BETTER. So you take a top 3 codex and buff the hell out of it and you have the #1 codex now. The ony dex on par with Eldar is Necrons and then only in the Decurion formation where they get that 4+ reanimation.

So, basically, thank you for admitting your Codex is stupidly over powered and probably zero fun to play against now for everyone except Necrons and Other Eldar, and Thank you for trying to make some nerfs, my point was that you guys were already powerful enough and all the buffs should be removed and the Wave serpeant should keep its nerf and then you would STILL be in the Top 15-20% of armies.

So if your going to cry about the hate your army is getting and get all butt hurt that you make a concession and we pie on saying it wouldn't be enough then just don't make a ridiculous post and expect people to be "Ohh that will fix everything".

Eldar players can play the Codex they just got in any games they want, they can bring that stupid decurion style formation to Tournaments all they want, just expect hatred aimed at you and GW because of how stupidly short sighted they are.

If that is a solution you both come up with, that is great. But at this point you are making stuff up. While it is clearly not a stretch to make a WK an MC, it isn't like that in the current rules.

My issue with changing rules is that not everyone agrees with what should change. Let say I am the guy with 4 WKs (I am not, but lets roll with it), I would be fine with playing my WKs are only MCs, however, someone else might have an issue with D-weapons, so wants to go back to the old Distort rule. Now I have to keep track of a WK under 3 different rulesets, each different depending on who I play against.

This is why I have the attitude of "all or nothing". I play the rules as they are in the current book. If an opponent doesn't like the rules as-is, I would rather just drop the unit entirely (or limit the number of upgraded weapons in the case of bikes), then keep up with what is different.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Galef wrote:

There will obviously be a process. If the first time you and the Eldar player face-off and he says "I have 5 WKs, are you ok with that?" You say, no thanks, then he says "But no one will play my list". You then have the option to say "Don't play 5 WKs and you might get in games" or you can take the high road and say "Let me put together a list that stands a chance at playing, could you drop at least 1 or 2 WKs?"

...and at this point, you are actively ruining the other guy's fun. Congratulations, you are now as close to being a TFG as one could be.

The best solution to this problem is not this, but to tell the guy: "OK, you can bring the 5 WK, but they are Monstrous Creatures." This way, everyone is happy: the guy can play his 5 WK list and have his fun doing so, and you have a chance against them and have your fun. Everyone wins.

Yes... because saying "you can bring that but you only get to use half it's rules" is SO much less of a TFG move then politely asking a guy to not play an obvious spam list in a friendly game.

In truth... being TFG is less about what you play, or what you ask your opponent to play, and more about how you ask. If you make demands of them, or show up with an obvious cheese list and refuse to change it then you are TFG. If you have a polite conversation, and come to a mutually agreeable solution, then everyone wins.

chanceafs wrote:

Yes... because saying "you can bring that but you only get to use half it's rules" is SO much less of a TFG move then politely asking a guy to not play an obvious spam list in a friendly game.

In fact, it is. Playing your beloved list with nerfs is better than not playing your beloved list at all.

chanceafs wrote:
If you have a polite conversation, and come to a mutually agreeable solution, then everyone wins.

Yes, thank you. Sh*tting on your opponent because of your special needs is TFG behavior. Realizing that your opponent also has the right to have fun with his uber-OP list and coming up with a solution to fix the most apparent issue (the list is uber-OP) is the path you must take if you are an actual decent human person.

Simply crying "ban muh cheese" is both lazy and childish IMHO.

 AtoMaki wrote:

chanceafs wrote:

Yes... because saying "you can bring that but you only get to use half it's rules" is SO much less of a TFG move then politely asking a guy to not play an obvious spam list in a friendly game.

In fact, it is. Playing your beloved list with nerfs is better than not playing your beloved list at all.

I would personally rather not play a unit, then play it with nerfs, but that is my personal preference. My "beloved list" is beloved because of how it plays, not just because of the models. I am more than happy to accomodate my opponent if they don't like something in my list, but it is unfair to me to have to keep up with changes to a unit.

chanceafs wrote:
If you have a polite conversation, and come to a mutually agreeable solution, then everyone wins.

This is what I am trying to say, but apparently failing to do.


-

 Galef wrote:

I would personally rather not play a unit, then play it with nerfs, but that is my personal preference.
-

So, you're proposing to either not play at all or buy new models that people might not really like - that's probably one of the reasons they haven't gotten them allready, or they imply can't afford it - for people who only have their 'beloved models' that got so overpowered - noone wants to play against them?

Not everyone has 3k+ of models. And not everyone wants to get so much.

There's nothing bad in altering rules to make a game more enjoyable.

Absolutely, I agree. I am just pointing out the since I do have the models to change my list, I will not change the rules, but rather drop the unit in dispute. I play in enough tourneys that do not alter individual unit rules that I know I will get to play whatever I want eventually. Since friendly games are supposed to be friendly, I have no issue with playing a "toned-down" list that gives me a chance to play some "non-competitive" units that I think are fun

It is not fair to have to keep up with what differences "Joe" wants in one game and "Bob" wants in a different game. It has been my experience that no 2 people completely agree on what nerfs are fair.

If, however, someone only has the models to play a set list, the chances are that they are new to that army and probably not that good at using them anyway. If you still want to change the rules for them to "let" them play, that is between you and your opponent. I would rather play that person using the full rules in their codex, rather than confuse them and give them the wrong impression of how the rules/tactics work