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Hello dakka. Have been cruising the forums lately noticing the new eldar are often compared to necrons in power levels, with eldaron top. But the general mindset it seems is that crons are pretty much the same scenario for other armies IE: no chance/very little of winning. I personally found ghat the decurions 4+ rp was a little much, basically giving every unit a 65 point cryptek that cant be killed/removed to lower it. But thatalone seems hardly enough of a reason to condem an entire codex. CADs are still a thing. The codex lost almost every trolly trick it had like mss now being essentially useless now (fear, really?) And its big lffenders of being underpriced/overpowered were all nerfed (tesla, night scythe, ccb, abs) by cost increases and/or the nerf to tesla in general.

So my question, what makes the codex so knee jerkingly overpowered to any and all. Is it just typical complaining or is it justified.

overlordweasel wrote:
Hello dakka. Have been cruising the forums lately noticing the new eldar are often compared to necrons in power levels, with eldaron top. But the general mindset it seems is that crons are pretty much the same scenario for other armies IE: no chance/very little of winning. I personally found ghat the decurions 4+ rp was a little much, basically giving every unit a 65 point cryptek that cant be killed/removed to lower it. But thatalone seems hardly enough of a reason to condem an entire codex. CADs are still a thing. The codex lost almost every trolly trick it had like mss now being essentially useless now (fear, really?) And its big lffenders of being underpriced/overpowered were all nerfed (tesla, night scythe, ccb, abs) by cost increases and/or the nerf to tesla in general.

So my question, what makes the codex so knee jerkingly overpowered to any and all. Is it just typical complaining or is it justified.

I have an idea. Play against necrons using a casual space marines list. You'll understand the complaints soon enough.

Mostly, it's a case of them getting a ton of free upgrades, which most codices don't have yet. And they're the toughest of tough models. Right now, Necrons have a powerful codex compared to most, and get a bunch of free upgrades that make them better. They're also hard as a rock.

Everyone besides Eldar has yet to get a "Post Decurion" codex, so isn't at the same level of power as these two codices. If that's the new power level, everyone just has to wait. If they're anomalies, then the game is effectively ruined for the next two years or so.

Sky is falling, Eldar are OP, Necrons are OP next to everything but Eldar, I need to learn to play better... blah, blah, blah. The Necron and Eldar codex are notably better than the last generation of Codices, so if they aren't the new benchmark they'll be notably more powerful than the competition.

All the bonuses Decurion gives you, simply for playing Decurion make it silly. I run pretty good lists and I am yet to beat decuricrons!

Daemonkin also got decurion-style stuff. Not in cheeze level, ofc.

Grey Knights kick the living gak out of the decurion.

I got pretty badly roflstomped on saturday. Force weapons, hammerhand, dreadknights, prescienced terminators and purifiers really tough to beat.

I am not sure the new necrons codex really is stronger than the last one, which might be a dumb opinion to have. I am sure it is a whole lot more annoying to play against than the last one, however.

Necrons gained a lot in toughness, now easily being one of the most, if not the most, durable codexes out there. At the same time our s7 shooting took a massive hit, but Night Scythes are still great at their new price.

Still, necrons were in the upper echelon of codex es before its update, and it may have gotten worse at dealing with super units, but at the same time most things got a little better. I think it is about the same strength as the last book.

I do not think the perceived advantages of the necrons are that significant when everyone runs optimized lists. However, when not optimizing most necron lists will just crash through their opponents like an unrelenting tidal wave of steel.

The people complaining keep bringing up the decurion. And i agree with it being a little overboard, but im specified that in the origional post. Tourney waac be tfgs will always fully optimize their codex ie spamming the best things in the book ie rp wraith spam. But doesnt every book have their "best build" at this point? Necrons might be higher tier than say orks or nids, but if you dont go overboard and play a fair fluffy list (which is VERY easy to do in the cron book) they are good but not unbeatable. You throw up that they got "a bunch of free upgrades"...i dont see anything that was free upgrades? Things that got buffed needed it to be even close to viable like those god awful flayed ones. And vise versa, crypteks lost their options and that alone ruined half the previous codexes cheese combos. They moved immotekh to low and nerfed the only reason you would take him over a reg overlord...so whats the problem? What is so glaring obvious to be bad? Its not like we had an amazing troop get buffed to even more amazing, looking at you jetbikes

The problem is that reanimation combined with good stat lines and decent strength on everything makes it that every Necron list is tough as nails as long as you take a decurion.

Sure, you can take a CAD and actively stay away from building something good, by not taking good units and building a list that is not designed with any clear strategy in mind.

However, most decurions smashes casual lists of other factions to bits, no matter how you build them.

Another point of the decurion is that it's a solid list. If you build decurion, you are accidentaly taking a very powerful and well rounded force, simply, building a good list, then on top of that the benefits we get stack, making it overboard.

My experience with the new Necron codex leads me to believe that it is slightly better than the last codex. A lot of punch was taken away from the last Codex, units like Stormkteks, Destrukteks, and Transcendent C'Tan completely wiped out or nerfed to the point they are not even close to what they used to be. On the table, this punch has been replaced by increased toughness and reroll cheese...I am rerolling frigging everything, it feels like an entirely new army system.

Using the Decurion, and not holding any punches, I am having a slightly easier time dealing with tough opponents than I was before, but the change isn't so dramatic that I'd call the new codex broken. The problem is, to be blunt, when you play this codex against weak opponents or weak army lists, it does tend to become a rollover game, so if I'm playing against "less good" players, I have started to tone down my army lists accordingly. But that is true of any good army list against a weak player or a weak army list.

The problem is that reanimation combined with good stat lines and decent strength on everything makes it that every Necron list is tough as nails as long as you take a decurion.

Sure, you can take a CAD and actively stay away from building something good, by not taking good units and building a list that is not designed with any clear strategy in mind.

However, most decurions smashes casual lists of other factions to bits, no matter how you build them.

So what your saying is JUST bc someone chooses to run a CAD, they automatically dont have any form of strategy when it comes to puttign their list together and what, they all of a sudden cant take large sections of the codex? Wraiths a fething expensive and are perfectly fine without the rp given by the one syder in the formation. Oh, and on that note, you are aware that the formations arent decurion only? ALL the decurion adds by itself is +1 to RP(rerolling ones) instead of obj sec. all the other bonuses are formation exclusive, and all of those generally have a unit tax like the stalker formation requiring 2 units of preatorians. I have yet to run a decurion bc i love the stalker model and how it meshes with an infantry line backed with ghost arks (which is both effective for crons and fluffy) but i dont want to sink points into 4 units of preatorians, which at minimum i believe is 500? Not to mention the flyers you HAVE to take to transport them in or theyll never even make it to their targets.

once again, i ask why is the new necron codex considered just over the top broken even WITHOUT the decurion boosting their survivability. Without the dec, they are roughly the same as before, with the chances of coming back worsening or increasing based off of situation. On top of that, they lost alot if not all the trolling tactics and a good bit of their killing potential. Gone are the days of the 90 point jinking AB getting off 7 hits from snap firing.

overlordweasel wrote:

The problem is that reanimation combined with good stat lines and decent strength on everything makes it that every Necron list is tough as nails as long as you take a decurion.

Sure, you can take a CAD and actively stay away from building something good, by not taking good units and building a list that is not designed with any clear strategy in mind.

However, most decurions smashes casual lists of other factions to bits, no matter how you build them.

So what your saying is JUST bc someone chooses to run a CAD, they automatically dont have any form of strategy when it comes to puttign their list together and what, they all of a sudden cant take large sections of the codex? Wraiths a fething expensive and are perfectly fine without the rp given by the one syder in the formation. Oh, and on that note, you are aware that the formations arent decurion only? ALL the decurion adds by itself is +1 to RP(rerolling ones) instead of obj sec. all the other bonuses are formation exclusive, and all of those generally have a unit tax like the stalker formation requiring 2 units of preatorians. I have yet to run a decurion bc i love the stalker model and how it meshes with an infantry line backed with ghost arks (which is both effective for crons and fluffy) but i dont want to sink points into 4 units of preatorians, which at minimum i believe is 500? Not to mention the flyers you HAVE to take to transport them in or theyll never even make it to their targets.

once again, i ask why is the new necron codex considered just over the top broken even WITHOUT the decurion boosting their survivability. Without the dec, they are roughly the same as before, with the chances of coming back worsening or increasing based off of situation. On top of that, they lost alot if not all the trolling tactics and a good bit of their killing potential. Gone are the days of the 90 point jinking AB getting off 7 hits from snap firing.

No. That is not what I said at all, which is why I said "and actively stay away from building something good..."

And actually, the Stalker is more accurately the unit tax to taking Praetorians. If that is all that is holding you off from trying out a decurion, jump infantry as hardy as terminators with ap2 attacks does not require transports. Having more representation from the Triarch than a lone Stalker would also be considered fluffy.

Though if you take a CAD and actively make bad unit choices, the resulting army will be bad. I do not think anyone have claimed necrons to be overpowered under those circumstances. I also do not think that is how most players build their lists. Consciously scaling things down? Sure. Though not consciously making useless lists. When people claim that Necrons are overpowered, I somehow doubt they have players who purposefully tries to construct useless armies in mind, rather your average list.

overlordweasel wrote:
The people complaining keep bringing up the decurion. And i agree with it being a little overboard, but im specified that in the origional post. Tourney waac be tfgs will always fully optimize their codex ie spamming the best things in the book ie rp wraith spam. But doesnt every book have their "best build" at this point? Necrons might be higher tier than say orks or nids, but if you dont go overboard and play a fair fluffy list (which is VERY easy to do in the cron book) they are good but not unbeatable. You throw up that they got "a bunch of free upgrades"...i dont see anything that was free upgrades? Things that got buffed needed it to be even close to viable like those god awful flayed ones. And vise versa, crypteks lost their options and that alone ruined half the previous codexes cheese combos. They moved immotekh to low and nerfed the only reason you would take him over a reg overlord...so whats the problem? What is so glaring obvious to be bad? Its not like we had an amazing troop get buffed to even more amazing, looking at you jetbikes

As I said. Find a casual space marines player. Bring your necrons list. Switch armies for the game.

This is a bit of a silly post.

So yeah, Necrons lost their Royal Court, which was a figurative bag of tricks. Reach in, pull out a cryptek, plot it on a unit and you have something awesome. 80% of the time it works 100% of the time. We also lost the great equalizer and destroyer of characters, mind shackle scarabs. Broken as all hell, though in reality, it was similar to all the psychic shriek/mind war shenanigans that already happen, just in CC. Tesla no longer has Tau level shooting shenanigans, oh well.

What we gained?
As you mentioned, +4 armywide FnP that AT BEST becomes standard FnP when you hit them with instant death. Necrons are the only army in the game that can get a second chance at bypassing an instant death wound.
The following units became awesome, or got a nice buff:
Destroyers
Lychguard
Praetorians
Triarch stalker
Tomb blades
Flayed ones
Just about every named character
Doomsday Ark
C'tan shards

The following units got nerfed:
Scarabs
Tesla everything (though the vehicles are still useful, just not crazy strong)

The following units still stink big:
Monolith
C'tan(though less than it used to)

So from that list, you can see that the codex gained leaps and bounds in strength. If it was JUST the CAD, necrons would be a top/mid tier army, and they wouldn't be on the smelly cheese list. However the decurion gives just about everything in the army the following:
RP+1 (mix with cryptek for +4 at all times) Otherwise you can make Nurgle stuff jealous.
Relentless - Heavy weapons? Pssssshhhhh, who needs em? Lets rapid fire and assault, even if we are not that great at it!
Move through cover - Dangerous terrain can stink it!

The formations are the final fungus on the cheese cake. Most of them can bring very powerful bonuses, however you must bring several units. All of these combined make for a terrifyingly powerful codex. Sure the damage output doesn't seem that impressive, but you just wont be able to stop the damage because necrons don't die.

I would agree with the general message of your post, even if some of the judgements seem a bit off! (In my humble opinion, which yeah, does not mean all that much at the end of the day. )

Doomsday arks are still meh, much like the monolith.
Doom scythes took a hit along with the scarabs.
The Annihilation barge is bad-okayish at best.
And the Transcendent C'tan got hit with the biggest sledgehammer ever (Not that I have ever seen one played, though. Not even necrons are that unfriendly.)

But those are details. A whole lot of stuff got better. Then they got formation that makes them even better. Then they got their command benefit that gives them a rediculous bump in their survivability.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
This is a bit of a silly post.

So yeah, Necrons lost their Royal Court, which was a figurative bag of tricks. Reach in, pull out a cryptek, plot it on a unit and you have something awesome.

I only ever did this with Stormteks (I never ran that silly Despairtek/Deathmark cheese). The thing I miss most is having a Cryptek Devastator Eldritch Lance squad, which I wouldn't say was too tricky.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ratflinger wrote:
Then they got their command benefit that gives them a rediculous bump in their survivability.

Two bumps, actually, people never mention that Decurion also lets your vehicles ignore Crew Shaken/Crew Stunned results, IIRC.

Nah, all necron vehicles have living metal, which ignores shaken, but not stunned.

As you mentioned, +4 armywide FnP that AT BEST becomes standard FnP when you hit them with instant death. Necrons are the only army in the game that can get a second chance at bypassing an instant death wound.
The following units became awesome, or got a nice buff:
Destroyers
Lychguard
Praetorians
Triarch stalker
Tomb blades
Flayed ones
Just about every named character
Doomsday Ark
C'tan shards

most of these units were terrible lats codex and were put at a decent place to be usable in the codex now, to actually have a choice instead of: are you not taking wraiths and 7 flyers? well it looks like you just lost. As said before, only with the decurion does any of that become "zomg cant kill". Some of these are STILL rarely taken for non fluff reasons. Special characters? most of them got worse with the exception of orikan and zandy. I still rarely see players not taking the previous two, if not; its generally your stock overlord. How do you have Ctan on both lists? They arent terribly competetive bc of the randomness of their powers, and the only one i see any good is the nightbringer; and only bc of bad writing on his GOD technically not counting as a shooting attack. If GW actually gave a gak about its rules, itd have been FAQd by now...the Codex has better internal balance now, but thats still not a reason to call "OP".

As I said. Find a casual space marines player. Bring your necrons list. Switch armies for the game

Funny you should mention that, I have done this exact thing to appease someone before. I won both, with the SM victory being the more one sided in the two, probably due to the fact he doesnt have as much experience with crons as i do with marines, even though i tried to help him with rules for certain units. unless youre talking about bringing an optimized list against a casual list, which is not very helpful....in that scenario, it doesnt matter what army you have, optimized lists>casual/fluffy lists every time, dice forgiving. Besides, SMs arent even a "bad" army...orks, sisters, or DAs however...maybe there you would have a point, but thats unavoidable (other than GW writing rules with balance in mind, what a world thatd be eh?)

 gwarsh41 wrote:
Nah, all necron vehicles have living metal, which ignores shaken, but not stunned.

They also ignore Stunned if they are in the decurion