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Hi Guys,

I just invest in a set of Vengeance Weapon battery how ever some rupes still unclear to me and hoped you could help.

The Stronghold Assault codex explain that the only way to claimed/reclaimed a building which is not yours is to occupy it and/or move to its battlements (in both case building must be unoccupy).
How ever the vengeance weapon battery is an impassable building (no transport capacity and can not be occupy) and has no battlements.
Does that men that the opponent can not claimed it? In addition, does it mean that I can only "automated fire" it since none of my model can occupy/move to its battlements?

Thank you for your help.

Xenophon00

Yes .

 CrownAxe wrote:
Yes .

Thanks for the answer. But are you saying yes "can not" to both of my questions?

Yes to both

If you purchase it as part of your army, the enemy can only claim it by entering the building, which they can't do because it is Impassable. And being under your control, I don't believe they can manually fire it. (The rules aren't very precise on this topic)

For you manually firing it yourself (it still isn't precise), it depends on if you consider the whole Battery to be the Weapon Emplacement (thus allowing you to get in base contact), or if you count it as an Impassable Building with a Weapon Emplacement on top (which would mean you couldn't get in base contact with the gun).

I would discuss it with your opponent before the game. Until we get better written rules, it's fine so long as both players understand the rules the same way.

 Bill1138 wrote:
If you purchase it as part of your army, the enemy can only claim it by entering the building, which they can't do because it is Impassable. And being under your control, I don't believe they can manually fire it. (The rules aren't very precise on this topic)

For you manually firing it yourself (it still isn't precise), it depends on if you consider the whole Battery to be the Weapon Emplacement (thus allowing you to get in base contact), or if you count it as an Impassable Building with a Weapon Emplacement on top (which would mean you couldn't get in base contact with the gun).

I would discuss it with your opponent before the game. Until we get better written rules, it's fine so long as both players understand the rules the same way.

The Vengeance is not a Gun Emplacement {page 109} (which can be manually fired by being in base contact), it is an Emplaced Weapon {page122} (which can only be manually fired by an embarked unit, which cannot happen for a Vengeance Weapon Battery).

 Quanar wrote:

 Bill1138 wrote:
If you purchase it as part of your army, the enemy can only claim it by entering the building, which they can't do because it is Impassable. And being under your control, I don't believe they can manually fire it. (The rules aren't very precise on this topic)

For you manually firing it yourself (it still isn't precise), it depends on if you consider the whole Battery to be the Weapon Emplacement (thus allowing you to get in base contact), or if you count it as an Impassable Building with a Weapon Emplacement on top (which would mean you couldn't get in base contact with the gun).

I would discuss it with your opponent before the game. Until we get better written rules, it's fine so long as both players understand the rules the same way.

The Vengeance is not a Gun Emplacement {page 109} (which can be manually fired by being in base contact), it is an Emplaced Weapon {page122} (which can only be manually fired by an embarked unit, which cannot happen for a Vengeance Weapon Battery).

Therefore it always fires with Automatic Fire (at the end of the shooting phase and at the closest enemy unit).

 Xenophon00 wrote:
Hi Guys,

I just invest in a set of Vengeance Weapon battery how ever some rupes still unclear to me and hoped you could help.

The Stronghold Assault codex explain that the only way to claimed/reclaimed a building which is not yours is to occupy it and/or move to its battlements (in both case building must be unoccupy).
How ever the vengeance weapon battery is an impassable building (no transport capacity and can not be occupy) and has no battlements.
Does that men that the opponent can not claimed it? In addition, does it mean that I can only "automated fire" it since none of my model can occupy/move to its battlements?

Thank you for your help.

Xenophon00

The Vengence weapon battery. Can not be claimed by your opponent. Also you can not firing them using a models BS that is in base contact with it as the model has not battlements or access points. Also, they can no be hull pointed out as they do not have a defined size or capacity. The only way to destroy them is to pen and roll better than a 4+ on the building damage table.

Also, they do not count for the purpose of army alienation. So if everyone dies and all is left is the buildings, you still lose.

Battlements has nothing to do with it. You can't fire an emplaced weapon from a building's battlements so not having is irrelevant. You can only manually fire battery from within the building. It is not possible to be within the building therefore it is not possible to manually fire the battery. Also, its 5+ on the building damage table. With a 4 you will destroy the gun but the building will remain a building. With a 5 you can strip away AV till the building is destroyed (but that would be a waste of shots) and 6+ will end the building right then and there.

As for hull points. All building have hull points. If the number of hull points is not on the datasheet, you need to know the size of the building. That SHOULD be on the datasheet but is absent from the VWB's datasheet. that does not mean the bulding does not have hull points though. It just dos'nt tell us what they are but the BRB is clear that all buldings have hull points. This is a gap in the rules and it cannot be solved with RAW alone. You and your opponent will need to agree on how many hull points the VWB will have.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Battlements has nothing to do with it. You can't fire an emplaced weapon from a building's battlements so not having is irrelevant. You can only manually fire battery from within the building. It is not possible to be within the building therefore it is not possible to manually fire the battery. Also, its 5+ on the building damage table. With a 4 you will destroy the gun but the building will remain a building. With a 5 you can strip away AV till the building is destroyed (but that would be a waste of shots) and 6+ will end the building right then and there.

As for hull points. All building have hull points. If the number of hull points is not on the datasheet, you need to know the size of the building. That SHOULD be on the datasheet but is absent from the VWB's datasheet. that does not mean the bulding does not have hull points though. It just dos'nt tell us what they are but the BRB is clear that all buldings have hull points. This is a gap in the rules and it cannot be solved with RAW alone. You and your opponent will need to agree on how many hull points the VWB will have.

Since the VWB has an av of 14 (like medium building) may I assume it has 4 hull points?

 Xenophon00 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
Battlements has nothing to do with it. You can't fire an emplaced weapon from a building's battlements so not having is irrelevant. You can only manually fire battery from within the building. It is not possible to be within the building therefore it is not possible to manually fire the battery. Also, its 5+ on the building damage table. With a 4 you will destroy the gun but the building will remain a building. With a 5 you can strip away AV till the building is destroyed (but that would be a waste of shots) and 6+ will end the building right then and there.

As for hull points. All building have hull points. If the number of hull points is not on the datasheet, you need to know the size of the building. That SHOULD be on the datasheet but is absent from the VWB's datasheet. that does not mean the bulding does not have hull points though. It just dos'nt tell us what they are but the BRB is clear that all buldings have hull points. This is a gap in the rules and it cannot be solved with RAW alone. You and your opponent will need to agree on how many hull points the VWB will have.

Since the VWB has an av of 14 (like medium building) may I assume it has 4 hull points?

Most people i've met go by Size, and as a Bastion is "Medium", it would make the VWB "Small".

Otherwise, i cannot think of a building bigger that a crate counting as "small", if the VWB is "medium" =P

I would suggest 3HP

3 would be my suggestion as well.

During 6th Ed (the edition the Vengeance rules were written in) the building rules has it clearly classed as small. That part of the rules didn't make the change to 7th leaving it in a slight grey area.
It hasn't gotten any bigger, small still seems accurate.

Hello, I' ve heard that there is FAQ for ebook for Stronghold assault, where Vengeance Weapon battery became a medium building with acces in it. So you can use model' s BS. Can anybody confirm it? Thank you very much

 Binos wrote:
Hello, I' ve heard that there is FAQ for ebook for Stronghold assault, where Vengeance Weapon battery became a medium building with acces in it. So you can use model' s BS. Can anybody confirm it? Thank you very much

There is no mention of that in the Stronghold Assault FAQ on the Games Workshop page, but unfortunately I don't have a copy of the ebook to check in that as well. It wouldn't be the first time the ebooks were different to the actual book + FAQ's, but it sound unlikely.

 Quanar wrote:

 Binos wrote:
Hello, I' ve heard that there is FAQ for ebook for Stronghold assault, where Vengeance Weapon battery became a medium building with acces in it. So you can use model' s BS. Can anybody confirm it? Thank you very much

There is no mention of that in the Stronghold Assault FAQ on the Games Workshop page, but unfortunately I don't have a copy of the ebook to check in that as well. It wouldn't be the first time the ebooks were different to the actual book + FAQ's, but it sound unlikely.

That is my point. It wouldn't be the first time the ebooks were different to the actual book. I am trying find who has a ebook of Stronghold assault, to confirm that...

Nope - so way to embark a VWB on my e version or hardback with the FAQ

Grendel083,
The table does still exist, it was just... butchered, I mean seriously butchered... to the point it is the leading candidate for worse 'Hack and Paste' job in a Rulebook! It wasn't even formatted properly on my copy of the Rulebook, with everything trying to cram itself to the left of the page instead of spreading itself out to form proper columns and rows. One column is clearly missing entirely, which just happened to be the very one that informed us how to use the size of the plastic model to determine the size of the Building. This is really quite upsetting, as it is something a competent editor should have caught immediately!

Oh well, I recommend using the table within 6th edition to determine Building size if the Datasheet does not list it.

 Massaen wrote:
Nope - so way to embark a VWB on my e version or hardback with the FAQ

Thank you for info

 grendel083 wrote:
3 would be my suggestion as well.

During 6th Ed (the edition the Vengeance rules were written in) the building rules has it clearly classed as small. That part of the rules didn't make the change to 7th leaving it in a slight grey area.
It hasn't gotten any bigger, small still seems accurate.

What you suggest or "how it used to be" really has no bearing on what the current rules for the unit are.

Currently, there is no building size avaible, so the number of HP's cannot be determined. As such, the only valid way of "removing" the building is by getting a "weapon destroyed" result or better on the vehicle dmg table (which is a 3 or higher iirc) which will prevent it from taking further action.

As pointed out, the building does not count towards the armies models on the table for the purposes of being tabled, nor can it capture objectives so destroying the gun is functionally the same as wrecking it.

DaPino wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
3 would be my suggestion as well.

During 6th Ed (the edition the Vengeance rules were written in) the building rules has it clearly classed as small. That part of the rules didn't make the change to 7th leaving it in a slight grey area.
It hasn't gotten any bigger, small still seems accurate.

What you suggest or "how it used to be" really has no bearing on what the current rules for the unit are.

Currently, there is no building size avaible, so the number of HP's cannot be determined. As such, the only valid way of "removing" the building is by getting a "weapon destroyed" result or better on the vehicle dmg table (which is a 3 or higher iirc) which will prevent it from taking further action.

As pointed out, the building does not count towards the armies models on the table for the purposes of being tabled, nor can it capture objectives so destroying the gun is functionally the same as wrecking it.

That is also an incorrect way of playing it.

Buildings have a number of Hull points. That is a rule.
It's not something that can be ignored, you can't just say "don't know how many, so I'll ignore the rule". It needs a value.

I proposed a solution. It's not RaW I know, it's common sense.
Ignoring Hull points is very much against the written rules.

Ignoring Hull points is NOT against the written rules when the building in question does not have any hull points.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Ignoring Hull points is NOT against the written rules when the building in question does not have any hull points.

The written rules tell you what to do in this case, they just don't tell you how to determine the hull points or rather size of an impassable building.

Personally I would go with small building just because they are, well, small.

A bunker and a bastion are both medium buildings and the vengeance buildings are nearly half their size.

A vengeance is NOT half the size of a bunker, what are you talking about, are we talking about this bunker? http://www.games-workshop.com/en-BE/Wall-of-Martyrs-Imperial-Bunker

That is indeed a medium building and in terms of volume, a vengeance weapon battery is bigger.

Just FYI the hullpoints thing doesent matter all that much anyways... Most of the Building Damage results have Weapon Destroyed as an effect, so you're left with a stump after the first hit anyways.

I keep forgetting that bunker even exists, i was referring to the bastion without the wall sections.

But even then, while not half the size; the vengeance isn't much bigger than just the larger main section. The vengeance's overall footprint and mass is still smaller than that building by a bit; and most of that mass is straight up

Is there a smaller building than the vengeance mount?

Mostly scratch-built, but no i don't think there is a smaller building as far as I can recall.