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Hey Dakka, wanted to throw out this question out to everybody to see how everyone feels about it.

This is partially because I am building a Star Wars themed Space Marine list to go play with at a local tourney using the old WOTC figures.

Before anyone asks: I do own official GW models, and usually I play my games with them, but I had resolved to do this on Monday due to my love of both genres, and it being May the 4th.

Yep, most my stuff is proxy. Overall the models tend to be better etc. Better than seeing the same GW models all the time thats for sure.

As long as its clear what every unit is and what they are armed with its totally fine, might want to check the tournament rules though to be sure.

Clockwork Iron wrote:
As long as its clear what every unit is and what they are armed with its totally fine, might want to check the tournament rules though to be sure.

Its a local tournament, and they said it was cool with them. Also I cannot stress enough the first part of what you said. You can't have space marine models representing both space marines and eldar firewarriors at the same time or anything like that or its a big no no .

Tournaments: don't do it. Your Star Wars models won't be WYSIWYG, and it's not fair to expect your opponents to keep track of what weapons and equipment each model has in a timed game. Also, IIRC, the models you're talking about are smaller than 28mm scale so that's going to cause LOS issues. Even if the TO allows it a lot of people are going to think you're TFG.

Other games: make the army, but don't be surprised if people don't want to play against it. In "casual" games it can still be annoying to play against an army where nothing is WYSIWYG, and players who care a lot about the fluff aren't going to like the idea of having a Star Wars vs. 40k game. Just remember that you're asking your opponent for a favor, and don't act like you're entitled to use your proxies.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Clockwork Iron wrote:
As long as its clear what every unit is and what they are armed with its totally fine, might want to check the tournament rules though to be sure.

Its a local tournament, and they said it was cool with them. Also I cannot stress enough the first part of what you said. You can't have space marine models representing both space marines and eldar firewarriors at the same time or anything like that or its a big no no .

This and proxy armies, especially when completed, are just fun for all. Great to look at, and good conversation topic.

I bought 2 bags of the 80 man bags of warzone mutant chronicles Imperial/Bauhaus from Prince August.
Absolutely love em. I think it actually made me want to diversify my guard even more, because I never even thought I wanted Tallarn or Catachan, and now I do, because I can.

Even having close to 200 guardsmen already, and somehow my head still says moar.

I have a lot of scratchbuilt and converted models from kits like Tamiya/Trumpeter/etc. along with my super expensive Leman Russ squadrons all decked out in Mars Pattern Hulls, and Ryza turrets, and matching battle and vanquisher cannons.

I think if you spend enough on GW/FW, and your models make sense, it should be more than okay.

So yeah man go for it!

I toyed with the idea before, basically came to the conclusion that if you use alternative models you should have a printed sheet to hand your opponent which says what is represented by what.

The other aspect I would advise is to stick to correct base sizes as people are very particular about that. (As they should be)

And of course the big one at which most players roll their eyes is using super-cheap blatantly unconverted infantry kits to represent very expensive models. (Ie "These $10 Chaos Cultists are $50 Sternguard Veterans with meltas" )

 Peregrine wrote:
Tournaments: don't do it. Your Star Wars models won't be WYSIWYG, and it's not fair to expect your opponents to keep track of what weapons and equipment each model has in a timed game. Also, IIRC, the models you're talking about are smaller than 28mm scale so that's going to cause LOS issues. Even if the TO allows it a lot of people are going to think you're TFG.

Other games: make the army, but don't be surprised if people don't want to play against it. In "casual" games it can still be annoying to play against an army where nothing is WYSIWYG, and players who care a lot about the fluff aren't going to like the idea of having a Star Wars vs. 40k game. Just remember that you're asking your opponent for a favor, and don't act like you're entitled to use your proxies.

I'm converting the models weapons/ swapping bases etc. to make them WYSIWYG. I also give myself a 50pts handicap usually to try to stay to the spirt of the game.

Are you giving stormtroopers boltguns? Or melta guns? How are you going about WYSIWYG?

my slaanesh army has lots of "proxy" models but its brutally clear what each one is... and for wepaons I made sure to model the correct 40k wepaons on them also.

If you could find 28mm SW figs and just make sure their wepaons are clear it would be cool i think.
AT ST as a walker

If they look good, play it. Rule of cool.

As to the question in the title, I'm generally positive about them if they fit the universe they're gaming in and are WYSIWYG in size and loadout.

As to your particular army, I'm torn between thinking it's a neat original idea and thinking that it's a rather visually jarring mashup of two different universes. In actual play, much would depend on how well you execute the conversions.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I'm converting the models weapons/ swapping bases etc. to make them WYSIWYG. I also give myself a 50pts handicap usually to try to stay to the spirt of the game.

This converting would be of most importance. If you can pull of full weapon swaps or enough conversions that it is very clear which 40k weapon a given stormtrooper has, then you're probably good to go.

You will still find folks who object to your choices on the basis of the "look". This is understandable since you're not using "Alternate minis" which aren't GW, but fit the look of the 40k universe. Rather, you're using minis that despite conversion have no connection to the 40k universe. Just know that this is going to happen and don't take it personally.

Hawkeye888 wrote:Are you giving stormtroopers boltguns? Or melta guns? How are you going about WYSIWYG?

I'm very interested in knowing this as well.

Is it Proxy or Counts As?

I consider that a major difference. No, those Space Marine Tacs aren't Eldar Rangers. But those Infinity Combined snipers are alien scouts the Eldar convinced to help here.

 Eilif wrote:
As to the question in the title, I'm generally positive about them if they fit the universe they're gaming in and are WYSIWYG in size and loadout.

As to your particular army, I'm torn between thinking it's a neat original idea and thinking that it's a rather visually jarring mashup of two different universes. In actual play, much would depend on how well you execute the conversions.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I'm converting the models weapons/ swapping bases etc. to make them WYSIWYG. I also give myself a 50pts handicap usually to try to stay to the spirt of the game.

This converting would be of most importance. If you can pull of full weapon swaps or enough conversions that it is very clear which 40k weapon a given stormtrooper has, then you're probably good to go.

You will still find folks who object to your choices on the basis of the "look". This is understandable since you're not using "Alternate minis" which aren't GW, but fit the look of the 40k universe. Rather, you're using minis that despite conversion have no connection to the 40k universe. Just know that this is going to happen and don't take it personally.

Hawkeye888 wrote:Are you giving stormtroopers boltguns? Or melta guns? How are you going about WYSIWYG?

I'm very interested in knowing this as well.

I'm really hoping it comes out well myself. The minis I ordered are still in the mail at this moment so I haven't begun to do the remodeling yet. I have stocked up on spare bases and I am trying very hard to make it I am not modeling for advantage.

As to your question the answer in no I'm not going to model bolters to them. However I am planning on using the scout trooper models with GW sniper rifles, and for a few of them I am going to use GW knives and their modeled pistol to be a counts-as bolt pistol with ccw ( as they are going to represent space marine scouts.) I am also representing a Space Marine bike command squad with stormtroopers on speeder bikes with actual GW grav guns in their hands, power mauls on their backs( as luck would have it on this one they already have a look a like premodeled to them.), and Storm shields on the sides of the speeders themselves.

I'm going to use the Phase III dark troopers as Devastator Centurions with GW gran cannons and amps, and using hunter killer missiles off of my dreadnought to be missile launchers.

For the models with lightsabers they are just going to be counts-as power swords for aesthetic reasons.

I'm also considering having a sith assassin speeder bike model (like the Darth Maul model) as a chapter master, and I am thinking about making a "double-bladed" thunder hammer for him to wields Episode I style.

If it ends up looking stupid in the end then I won't play with them, but I'm going to try hard to make it work.

 Peregrine wrote:
Also, IIRC, the models you're talking about are smaller than 28mm scale so that's going to cause LOS issues. Even if the TO allows it a lot of people are going to think you're TFG.

What 28mm scale? Because 40k nowadays is closer to 32-33mm than 28mm. The LOS issues will also be present with old GW ranges from up to the late 90s. My CSM force includes plastic chaos marines from the 90s and on average they're 3mm shorter than the 'current' plastic chaos marines, at least.

I don't understand how you can complain about "smaller" models from other companies when GW has not been consistent about the scale of its own products. Plastic cadians are probably taller and bulkier than RT era space marines. Old terminator models were smaller than its current counterparts and came on 25mm bases. And you're concerned about LOS because of alternative models? Go find a better excuse please.

I looked it up. The WOTC models are 28mm scale, and surprisingly most of the bases are the same as my space marines. (Alhough some of the Star Wars figures inexplicably have square bases for some reason)They stand maybe 2mm shorter than the GW models.
If 2mm is going to cause a LOS issue then I'd just let the guy shoot my unit anyways.
I don't particularly care about winning, I just want to make a Star Wars proxy 40k army.

I think that's more of a counts-as army, but I could be wrong.

I'd have no problem with it. Maybe make some minor conversions, make it look cool and I'll be happy to play a game against it!

Bharring wrote:
Is it Proxy or Counts As?

I consider that a major difference. No, those Space Marine Tacs aren't Eldar Rangers. But those Infinity Combined snipers are alien scouts the Eldar convinced to help here.

I thing you could count it as a proxy with WYSIWYG features of the original unit.

Personally I think that any proxy or count as project should show that you put effort into the modeling,

Card board cut outs are great for people just starting and trying to find their niche, but I'll give you a queer look if you try to bring that as a 5 year veteran or to any sort of 'formal' game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be fair though, I don't know where you should draw the line between proxy and counts as.

Well I don't think it's that difficult.

By "counts as" I understand everything that accurately portrays what it's meant to portray. By definition, an imperial guardsman is a non-enhanced human with average body protection and a laser or automatic rifle (same stats, same rules). As such, any 28mm scale human model armed with either a lasgun or some sort of automatic rifle counts as an imperial guardsman. This is actually backed by the fluff, guard regiments come from millions and millions of worlds in the Imperium, and each one of them have their distinctive traits and looks when it comes to equipment.

So technically, an IG army made up from Star Wars stormtroopers models will be all fine, since we're talking about non-enhanced humans with average armor and lasguns.

Proxies are evil. Counts as is great. Especially when you make some nifty conversions.
It depends on the nature of the army as well.
For example: Counts for IG are fine as they are supposed to be very varied, but for the SM it does not work fluffwise because their equipment is standardised.
It also needs to be WYSIWYG of course, otherwise it gets confusing when playing.

So what your saying is that it would be more appropriate if they were Imperial Guard then?

With their armour. Storm troopers might be best as Scions.

And excuse me for asking, but what's the difference between counts as and proxy.

 Korinov wrote:
So technically, an IG army made up from Star Wars stormtroopers models will be all fine, since we're talking about non-enhanced humans with average armor and lasguns.

I disagree. They aren't a plausible representation of an IG force that could really exist in 40k, they're Star Wars toys with 40k guns glued onto them. If you showed someone the army they'd say "oh, nice stormtroopers" and have no idea that it's supposed to be an IG army (or even a 40k army!).

 General Kroll wrote:
And excuse me for asking, but what's the difference between counts as and proxy.

A counts-as model is one that could legitimately exist in the 40k universe and have the rules it is using, but isn't the same as the official model. It fits the theme and looks like something GW could produce, if they wanted to do more with that area of the fluff.

A proxy model is one that fails this test. It isn't a legitimate alternate representation of some part of the fluff, it's a random model acting as a substitute for the real one. And this applies whether it's an obvious Star Wars model (not fluffy) or just a cardboard box "tank" (not a model at all).

As long as its not My Little Pony I'm down with whatever.

As long as the sizes are right and I can tell what's what, go for it.

Peregrine wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
So technically, an IG army made up from Star Wars stormtroopers models will be all fine, since we're talking about non-enhanced humans with average armor and lasguns.

I disagree. They aren't a plausible representation of an IG force that could really exist in 40k, they're Star Wars toys with 40k guns glued onto them. If you showed someone the army they'd say "oh, nice stormtroopers" and have no idea that it's supposed to be an IG army (or even a 40k army!).

 General Kroll wrote:
And excuse me for asking, but what's the difference between counts as and proxy.

A counts-as model is one that could legitimately exist in the 40k universe and have the rules it is using, but isn't the same as the official model. It fits the theme and looks like something GW could produce, if they wanted to do more with that area of the fluff.

A proxy model is one that fails this test. It isn't a legitimate alternate representation of some part of the fluff, it's a random model acting as a substitute for the real one. And this applies whether it's an obvious Star Wars model (not fluffy) or just a cardboard box "tank" (not a model at all).

Well if you want to get super technical about it, any conversions are illegal because they are not what the official GW model has on the box .

(BTW, I hope I'm not coming across as TFG as to you as the comment you made earlier made me think this. I don't "DO" modeling for advantage. Its still a bunch of plastic soldiers to me.)

Anyways IMO, ust because Star Wars is extremely recognizable, and you can immediately tell that they are Star Wars does not make them bad counts as models IMO. How does it make it different from a regular counts as model? Its not whether or not they recognize it at first glance, its whether or not the models are recognizable as what you are "proxying" it as after you have explained it. I

To me the standards for an appropriate counts as or proxy are:
Are the heights the same or nearly the same? Can you adjust the height so it is the same? Yes/No
Are the bases the same or nearly the same? Yes/No
Are the weapons WYSIWYG or at LEAST universally the same on all models ? Yes/No
Is each model type distinct? Yes/No
Can you tell effort was placed into the models? Yes/No

If you answered NO to more than one of the above then its a no-go. If it is only 1 (barring model distinction, this is critical) then its ok with me.

MWHistorian wrote:As long as its not My Little Pony I'm down with whatever.

Does this actually happen? Kind of a scary thought.

Would totally be better as IG imo.

I wouldn't worry about wysiwyg too much. Like everything else in this game just play with people who share your mindset. You will never enjoy a game against someone who complains that Stormtrooper blasters "aren't bolters" or some such.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

To me the standards for an appropriate counts as or proxy are:
Are the heights the same or nearly the same? Can you adjust the height so it is the same? Yes/No
Are the bases the same or nearly the same? Yes/No
Are the weapons WYSIWYG or at LEAST universally the same on all models ? Yes/No
Is each model type distinct? Yes/No
Can you tell effort was placed into the models? Yes/No

If you answered NO to more than one of the above then its a no-go. If it is only 1 (barring model distinction, this is critical) then its ok with me.

A pretty good list. Especially being willing to fudge on one. That makes cool figs like lasgun Squats (who are too short) viable as proxy IG.

I might also look to see if the figures are armored similarly.

If it's WYSIWYG I don't really mind. Though I think they'd fit better as IG than Marines.

Though I will say... if your plan is to just glue on Space marine meltas/plasmas/whatever to make them WYSIWYG, I don't think it'll look all that great. If it's the Star Wars models I'm thinking of, they aren't quite as large and are more realistically scaled than GW's models, so the guns are going to look freakishly huge and out of place on them.

But if you can make them look decent, whatever, doesn't bother me.

 General Kroll wrote:


And excuse me for asking, but what's the difference between counts as and proxy.

Depends on who you ask. To me, counts as is a model that's relatively similar, has the same base size and close to the same size dimensions, and is intended to take the place of a certain model in your army on a permanent basis due to whatever issue you may have with the original model. For example, if you didn't like an monstrous creature so you find/make a model similar in size and equipment to use instead. In a place I used to play a guy made a really sweet clockwork demon prince.

A proxy, to me, is a model that's on the same base size and close to the same size, but that's all that really matters. It's not something that is permanent. My example here would be if someone wanted to try out another space marine squad in their list before they bought it and used an ork boy squad they had laying around for the marines.


Personally, I don't care if someone has a counts as or proxy army, but it's up to your local group and TO.