Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I wanted to make this thread to give everybody a chance to compile their favorite proposed weapons changes into one place
A few ideas to kick around:
Heavy bolters being 5pts a piece.
All 15pt non- IC pistols reduced to 5pts a piece.
Scatterlasers becoming changed to Heavy 4 S5
Boltguns and pistols gaining the shred usr.
Dark Angel only plasma gun without gets hot.
Grav weapons being AP- against 3+ or worse saves units.

Feel free to discuss or add your own ideas.

I like:
HB at 5pts probably
Pistol cost reductions probably, but 5ppm is far too little for an Infernus Pistol. Harlequins pay 15ppm for equivalents.
Scatter Lasers I'm liking that idea, but that's another thread.
Grav allowing weaker armor saves sounds interesting, but would require investigation.

I can't comment on DA plasma not having Gets Hot. Traditionally, that requires dropping the S by 1 as well.

Boltguns and Pistols getting shred is bonkersly OP. Whether to buff them is in another thread. I think its a terrible idea, but I'll try to confine my arguments to the other thread.

Harlequin pistols would drop to 5ppm as well. I'm tired of pistols costing the same or more for +1 attack( maybe unless you already had a different pistol) and only 1 shot.


I don't know how bolters having shred is op, but then again I didn't do any math on it either.

Like I said feel free to post what you think of the proposed changes.

AP 3 Plasma weapons, excluding plasma cannons and larger.

10 point Inferno Pistols

vehicles firing ordnance weapons don't have to snap-fire other weapons.

Pintle-mounted weapons can fire overwatch.

I also really like 5 point Heavy Bolters

Tau have strength 6 AP 2 plasma weapons and they're considered OP. Dark Angels shouldn't get that.

HBs should only be 5p upgrades for non Relentless models for sure.
Pistols should be either 5 or 10 pts, definitely not 15pts.
Scatterlasers are balanced at S5
Boltguns don't need Shred.
Shuriken should be AP4 on a "6" and do not wound everything regardless of Toughness
Dark Angels Plasma should still Get hot
Plasma Guns should be 10pts instead of 15pts
Grav should be Assault 2 18" for Grav Gun and Heavy 4 24" for Grav Cannon. The current Salvo rules are cool, but broken balance wise unless Relentless platforms pay more for them. This balances them out nicely. They don't need to be more complicated, just more fair for the different platforms for cost.
Missile Launchers should be 10pts with a 5pt Skyfire Upgrade.

Zagman,
Why AP4 for Shurikens on a 6? If you're going that far, you might as well remove the rule.

I'm not a huge fan of Bladestorm, but if you removed it, you'd have to do something for Guardians and Dire Avengers. They shouldn't be worse in every way than other Troops. Not necessarily something huge, but something.

I believe I agree with everything else you listed.

Also:
-All Sniper weapons get pinning.
-All Rail weapons get Ordinance.

Bharring wrote:
Zagman,
Why AP4 for Shurikens on a 6? If you're going that far, you might as well remove the rule.

I'm not a huge fan of Bladestorm, but if you removed it, you'd have to do something for Guardians and Dire Avengers. They shouldn't be worse in every way than other Troops. Not necessarily something huge, but something.

I believe I agree with everything else you listed.

Also:
-All Sniper weapons get pinning.
-All Rail weapons get Ordinance.

I'm not deadset on Shurken, but having Rending on every basic Infantry weapon in an army game is too much, being able to wound and obliterate GCs with a basic infantry weapon is too much. I've thought AP3 with no auto wound would be ok, or even AP2 but does not Autowound. And even at AP4 on a 6 they are far from the worst Troops in the game, they are 9pts for Guardians and 13pts for DAs with Battle Focus. They are still assault 2 S4 AP5 weapons at either 12" or 18" range.

Basically, I'm not sold on how Shuriken needs to change, but it does need some kind of adjustment.

Yeah, not the worst troops in the game. And they may be too good against MCs. Losing auto-wound would probably be good.

As for the AP value, compare DAs to CSM or Necron Warriors. They lose heavily at 18"+, 0-12", and CC.

Without Bladestorm, in the one area they don't currently get beat by naked CSM, they are exactly tied.

With blade storm, if DAs get exactly everything they want, except CSM get a 5+ cover, it takes DAs 10 rounds to win, and they have to stay out of Rapid Fire threat range to do it. While only having 1 guy left. While the CSM control the ground.

I'd rather a more radical redesign of Guardians and DAs that included removing Blade storm, but simply dropping it to AP4 only on a 6 seems to be far too much.

Bharring wrote:
Yeah, not the worst troops in the game. And they may be too good against MCs. Losing auto-wound would probably be good.

As for the AP value, compare DAs to CSM or Necron Warriors. They lose heavily at 18"+, 0-12", and CC.

Without Bladestorm, in the one area they don't currently get beat by naked CSM, they are exactly tied.

With blade storm, if DAs get exactly everything they want, except CSM get a 5+ cover, it takes DAs 10 rounds to win, and they have to stay out of Rapid Fire threat range to do it. While only having 1 guy left. While the CSM control the ground.

I'd rather a more radical redesign of Guardians and DAs that included removing Blade storm, but simply dropping it to AP4 only on a 6 seems to be far too much.

It was a snap decision, and you may be right. I didn't get a chance to run the math, something I would do before I changed anything, like my proposed Balanace Errata I'm likely going to star officially working on.

Though, against Necron Warriors a 6 still does ignore their armor. Guardians are a bad example as they could use a bit of a boost, DAs are still pretty solid with Battle Focus.

Though, AP3 on a "6" isn't a bad compromise with no Autowound. Its a minor fix that helps out those Terminators, but not PA units.

Definitely requires some more thought... Thank you for pointing out that my snap decision/thought was a bit too drastic, I agree.

I have to be honest, scatterlasers kill like 20X more marines than bladestorm. Probably even more.

Martel732 wrote:
I have to be honest, scatterlasers kill like 20X more marines than bladestorm. Probably even more.

Of course they do, its one of the reasons they are "fixed" in this. At S5 they suffer a 20% decrease in effective firepower vs Marines, .222 vs .277 Wounds Per Hit. Against AV12 they are no longer effective, and against AV11 they are only 50% less effective at Stripping HP and cannot Pen.

My Bladestorm suggestion is meant to fix their outrageous damage output against other targets, mainly 2+ AS, and GCs.

I think I've settled on the AP3 Bladestorm with no Autowound as the sweetspot IMO.

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have to be honest, scatterlasers kill like 20X more marines than bladestorm. Probably even more.

Of course they do, its one of the reasons they are "fixed" in this. At S5 they suffer a 20% decrease in effective firepower vs Marines, .222 vs .277 Wounds Per Hit. Against AV12 they are no longer effective, and against AV11 they are only 50% less effective at Stripping HP and cannot Pen.

My Bladestorm suggestion is meant to fix their outrageous damage output against other targets, mainly 2+ AS, and GCs.

I think I've settled on the AP3 Bladestorm with no Autowound as the sweetspot IMO.

Better you than me. It's really hard for me to see straight when it comes to the scatter laser. Too many bad memories.

I could see those bladesttorm rules working. 2+ saves would then scare non-Wraith Eldar a lot, but that's better than not much at all.

Bharring wrote:
I could see those bladesttorm rules working. 2+ saves would then scare non-Wraith Eldar a lot, but that's better than not much at all.

Power them down with scatter lasers. Like everything else. Everything falls before them.

What about necron gauss? I've heard people complain about it, but I don't think it can really be changed.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
What about necron gauss? I've heard people complain about it, but I don't think it can really be changed.

The problem with Guass is its ability to hurt SHVs, otherwise the only problem is that it's attached to Decurian Necrons who receive a blanket +33% increase in durability for effectively no cost. Guass itself isn't the problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
I could see those bladesttorm rules working. 2+ saves would then scare non-Wraith Eldar a lot, but that's better than not much at all.

Glad you concur, 2+ AS needs some love.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
I could see those bladesttorm rules working. 2+ saves would then scare non-Wraith Eldar a lot, but that's better than not much at all.

Power them down with scatter lasers. Like everything else. Everything falls before them.

Sure, but by dropping the Strength to 5 Scatter Lasers are much better. 20% may not seem huge, but it has a large impact on the game. Eldar shoot and instead of killing five Marines, only four fall. Over the course of a game that is significant.

Zagman,
What are your thoughts on Ordinance for all Rail weaponry?

The Railgun feels like an Ordinance weapon, but lacks the rule.

Heavy Rail Rifle might also need to be S9, not sure, but it would be an interesting mechanic.

Rail Rifles are a bit odd. It would make them anti-material rifles, more capable of penning vehicles. However, the current rules are somehow rapid fire. Were there old models that looked like rapid fire weapons? Mine look like weapons that cannot even be hipfired, with a slow ROF.

Ordnance Rail weapons are intrinsically flawed, insofar as it either requires the unit to sit still (Pathfinders with RR), or force the rest of the unit's weapons to snapfire (Hammerheads, Broadsides).

So either Ordnance needs to be reworked to prevent vehicles, at least, from being forced to snapfire everything else but the Ordnance weapon, or the Rail weapons just need to be given a specific special rule to similar effect.

Also, in the "old" Tau book (IIRC from 3rd/4th ed) the Rail Rifle was Heavy 1 and AP3. In the Codex Approved that it originally appeared (also, IIRC), it was that and Gets Hot.

I think the intent is to show "technological advancement" for the Tau by improving the 'reliability' or firepower of the weapon over time.

However, I'd also like to point out that Pulse Rifles do not look like they could be "hipfired" either. Rapid Fire rules likely do not represent hipfiring (because it is generally a tactically stupid thing to do that IRL), but rather rapidly shooting at close range.

It's also worth noting that the Longshot Pulse Rifle is also (for whatever reason) Rapid Fire instead of the traditional Heavy 1 for a Sniper weapon.

Bharring wrote:Zagman,
What are your thoughts on Ordinance for all Rail weaponry?

The Railgun feels like an Ordinance weapon, but lacks the rule.

Heavy Rail Rifle might also need to be S9, not sure, but it would be an interesting mechanic.

Rail Rifles are a bit odd. It would make them anti-material rifles, more capable of penning vehicles. However, the current rules are somehow rapid fire. Were there old models that looked like rapid fire weapons? Mine look like weapons that cannot even be hipfired, with a slow ROF.

Whiskey144 wrote:Ordnance Rail weapons are intrinsically flawed, insofar as it either requires the unit to sit still (Pathfinders with RR), or force the rest of the unit's weapons to snapfire (Hammerheads, Broadsides).

So either Ordnance needs to be reworked to prevent vehicles, at least, from being forced to snapfire everything else but the Ordnance weapon, or the Rail weapons just need to be given a specific special rule to similar effect.

Also, in the "old" Tau book (IIRC from 3rd/4th ed) the Rail Rifle was Heavy 1 and AP3. In the Codex Approved that it originally appeared (also, IIRC), it was that and Gets Hot.

I think the intent is to show "technological advancement" for the Tau by improving the 'reliability' or firepower of the weapon over time.

However, I'd also like to point out that Pulse Rifles do not look like they could be "hipfired" either. Rapid Fire rules likely do not represent hipfiring (because it is generally a tactically stupid thing to do that IRL), but rather rapidly shooting at close range.

It's also worth noting that the Longshot Pulse Rifle is also (for whatever reason) Rapid Fire instead of the traditional Heavy 1 for a Sniper weapon.

Whiskey144 hit the nail on the head, Ordinance is terrible and doesn't work on any of the models we'd like it to.

I think Heavy 2 on the Rail Rifle would be better... Ordinance doesn't feel right either. The real problem is single shot weapons just don't cut it, especially as anti vehicle weapons.

I'd say Heavy 2 on the Heavy Rail Rifle, and Heavy 2 on the Rail Rifle, but bump the range on the Rail Rifle up a bit. Or just drop the cost of the upgrades...