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After playing the games, reading the novels, and seeing the established lore I can't help but feel that space marines are supposed to be this super powerful elite force of genhanced humans. However, on the tabletop they come across as average and underwhelming. This isn't a rant about how the game should buff or nerf anything. This is more of a casual observation and query. How powerful are space marines and how powerful should they be? I don't think that a ten man squad can take out an entire planet solo nor do I think that a squad of imperial guard vets can ambush and kill an entire tactical squad. I think that space marines are in the middle somewhere. Come to think of it, I'd like you guys to reflect (based on the lore and to an extent the tabletop) where do you think all the different factions come across and better yet why?

Personally, here's where I think everyone should be:

Necron
Tyranids (full scale invasion)
Deamons (warp rift)
Eldar/Dark Eldar
Space Marines/Grey Knights/ Ork (waagh)
Orks
Tau
Imperial guard/Mechanicus/Sisters

I came up with this list by thinking about if a planet was infested with <insert faction> and a space marine chapter(s) was sent would the chapter(s) be able to retake the planet or have to call an Exterminatus. Necron, Tyranids and Deamons seem to be a really hard fight that would be extremely costly in terms of lives. Eldar and quelling a space marine revolt, and ork waaagh! seem to be a bit harder (costly but doable), and finally, Orks infestation, Tau, Imperial revolt seem to be more like meh. Thoughts?

With the exception of Squats I can't think of any faction for which the established fluff is properly represented on the tabletop.

Welcome to probably the single most prominent skub topic in 40k's lore.

Astartes are portrayed as everything between warrior demigods pulling off obscene feats (FTL reaction speeds, for example) and mediocre cannon fodder. You will get many things, but a consensus is not one of them.

What do you want Space Marines to be?

That is the right answer - for you.


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MarsNZ wrote:
With the exception of Squats I can't think of any faction for which the established fluff is properly represented on the tabletop.

This is also true.

I think there's a whole vast swath of 'depends' and 'maybes' in there.

On Catachan, for example? A squad of Catachan veterans could murder an Ultramarines tactical squad, no sweat. In neutral territory? Not so much. You give home turf (or familiar turf) advantage/disadvantage, it changes things up.

I mean, most of your Dark Eldar haemonculi will come out victorious (although not necessarily alive--death not being a huge setback for them) in conflicts with chapters like the Space Wolves or the White Scars because those chapters have a tendency towards hotheadedness that the more calculating haemonculi can take advantage of. Salamanders, in the same situation? More cautious, more experienced at dealing with that particular enemy, they stand a much better chance. (Heck, they've raided Commorragh on more than one occasion, so they should do okay.)

The chapters vary so wildly, they all have extremely different strengths/weaknesses, and that plays a huge role in discussions like this. Chapters like the Marines Malevolent and Black Dragons are just a curly hair's width from falling to Chaos, the Crimson Fists just lack the numbers to deal with large horde armies anymore, and other forces require a degree of cunning that some of the more extreme 'hit-it-with-a-rock' chapters can't or won't bring to bear.

For the sake of small level engagements, let's assume you're talking about the most successful and 'default' Space Marines, the Ultramarines. In a small squad engagement, (so Ultramarines tacticals or scouts versus the footsoldiers of the enemy army) I'd assume the following:

Necrons: Against lower forms of Necrons, it would take a great number to overwhelm Space Marines.
Imperial Guard: Human elite soldiery were what Space Marines were designed to combat. Barring stormtroopers, who might stand a better chance, Space Marines can chew through regular IG platoons all day.
Orks: The Space Marines can easily bring down large numbers of orks. They could reenact 300 on a regular basis. Unfortunately, throw enough orks in there, and the space-Spartans are still going to lose eventually.
Eldar: This is a matchup that actually fits the fluff fairly well. The base soldiery has wargear far better than the Marines, but the marines are stronger and more durable, and that might tell in the end.
Dark Eldar: The Dark Eldar troops are weaker and their equipment is (while still advanced) not as great as their Craftworld kin. They would lose lots of warriors trying to take some Space Marines down. Wyches, given numbers, might be able to overwhelm the marines, but they'd still lose quite a few.
Grey Knights: Tear through regular marines like wet tissue paper.
Daemons: Daemons invulnerable saves, fearlessness, and multitude of special attacks give them some edges, and the marines have to apply their strengths to the specific daemon group's weaknesses in order to prevail without heavy casualties.
Sisters: With the same equipment but a weaker physique, Sisters of Battle are a sad sexist stereotype when it comes to army comparisons.
Tau: While the battlesuits can go toe-to-toe with tactical marines, the foot soldiery of the Empire gets ripped asunder when exposed to the close combat potential of the marines. Their only hope is to gun down the Astartes before they get there.
Tyranids: Hordes of chitin are designed to be mowed down. The biggest limit the marines will face will be keeping ammo supplied. They only lose when they get overrun by sheer unadulturated weight of numbers.
Chaos Marines: Toe-to-toe even matchup.

I don't think I forgot any major armies. All these are based primarily on fluff, not on rules.

Eldar are not actually as strong as they appear on the table-top, because they almost never have the numbers to deploy like that, except when defending a Craftworld.

Outside of that, CWE are small-force teams. Like, maybe 15 Space-Elves, led by some junior Farseer. While their equipment is good, you can field far more of it on the table than one is normally likely to see "for real".

Dark Eldar are raiders. Against any enemy dug in and ready for them, they get their asses handed to them, even by the Imperial Guard.

A Warp Rift of Daemons is generally a world-ending, apocalyptic event, and can, depending on Circumstances, be at the top of the list. A Hive Fleet invasion is, likewise, on this level. They've even managed to eat smaller Tomb Worlds or Tomb Worlds where the Tomb was not yet fully-active.

Orks can be anywhere on that list. All depends on how many Orks are there, from what clans, and how good the Boss leading them is.

Sisters are sometimes used to take out Renegade Space Marine Chapters.

Grey Knights are a specialized force of Space Marines. Only on the table-top is their wargear and special abilities equally effective against Xenos as it is Daemons. GK are not normally deployed to fight anything other than Daemonic foes, as such things are what they are specifically designed to combat.

Space Marines... well, depends on who's fluff you're reading. From some writers, a single Space Marine is the equal of any ten soldiers of the Imperial Guard, while other writers will have a single squad toppling entire worlds on its own.

I forgot to put in chaos space marines. I know that things vary. A single space marine against a gaunt is probably not going to work up a sweat. The same marine vs hundreds of them is going to have a bad time and this can vary depending on which marine/chapter/equipment (picture a scout from the Lamenters chapter). However, the result should be the same. Marine would lose against those odds.

And because I felt like giving my own opinion on it all:

Eldar and Dark Eldar are glaringly overpowered space-elves who put Legolas to shame and sprint through your lines too fast for you to hit them. Not awfully tough (but with awfully advanced armour), but with great guns, and so fast mortal humans are never really going to hit them. Non-trueborn DE are slightly less crazy because they are not made as properly, but they are still outrageous. Aspect Warriors are approximately equal to Astartes. Kabalites are a little bit worse. Wyches also fall behind due to their wargear disadvantage.

Tyranid creatures are all lethal - a Hormagaunt can slaughter a squad of IG in short order if they get into melee, and each creature is perfected for its task. Nasty beings.

Astartes are effectively immortal to minor melee attacks and most anti-infantry fire thanks to their armour, are stronger, faster and tougher than any human and smarter than most to boot. They're massive, wield guns that you can't really consider 'small arms fire' anymore, and are generally really mean. Normal humans with lasguns/autoguns and combat blades can't really do gak. As in, the Astartes could lie down and take a nap, and they could still not do gak, aside from ineffectually batting on the '''''soft'''' armour with their knives, and scorch the surface of the armoured-glass eyeslits with their lasguns, but deal no real damage.

Necrons do not die.

Daemons turn you insane with their mere presence, unless you're hypno-indoctrinated, guarded by blind zeal or similarly extremely hardened.

IG are pretty fethed. Yeah, sorry guys. You're normal humans in a grimdark setting, caught between angry demigods of war dishing it out on the battlefield, with angry massive super-space-monsters dishing it back. 'You're fethed' is sort of what it says on the tin. Enjoy your grimdark life, for it's at least goint to be short. Except there's an extraordinarily nasty hell waiting for you too. feelsbadman.jpg

Marines die to heavy weaponry like any other footslooger in the galaxy, they're superior to the average human in every way, but nothing that's not manageable to a very well trained/equipped humans, a stormtrooper with anything plasma/melta is going to a pretty easy time, oen with a hellgun will have a decent challenge, just stay out of melee.

TT stats are pretty decent representation of the stats of everything. Some things are fethed up, but what can you do...

 Inkubas wrote:
I came up with this list by thinking about if a planet was infested with <insert faction> and a space marine chapter(s) was sent would the chapter(s) be able to retake the planet

The answer is "no" to all of those, except maybe low-tier IG conscript hordes or chaos cultists. A single chapter simply can't win a war against a whole planet unless the enemy has a really fragile chain of command and dies as soon as one leader is assassinated. Otherwise marines are not going to win against millions-to-one numbers.


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 Ashiraya wrote:
IG are pretty fethed. Yeah, sorry guys. You're normal humans in a grimdark setting, caught between angry demigods of war dishing it out on the battlefield, with angry massive super-space-monsters dishing it back. 'You're fethed' is sort of what it says on the tin. Enjoy your grimdark life, for it's at least goint to be short. Except there's an extraordinarily nasty hell waiting for you too. feelsbadman.jpg

How powerful are space marines?
Not sure. Depends if they're bro-fisting Necron warlords that day, I guess.

Considering space marines were taking out planets I don't think it's to far fetched for a chapter or a few of them to overthrow an entire IG or AM regiment on a planet.

 Inkubas wrote:
Considering space marines were taking out planets I don't think it's to far fetched for a chapter or a few of them to overthrow an entire IG or AM regiment on a planet.

But it's not going to be just one regiment. It's going to be many regiments, adding up to millions of guardsmen at least. And those guardsmen will have tanks, artillery, ICBMs, etc. And remember that the total number of space marines in the entire 40k galaxy is roughly comparable to the size of the peacetime all-volunteer US army of 2015.

Guardsmen are tough and some can hold their own but if I had to put my money on a space marine chapter or chapters assaulting a planet and the guardsmen standing in defense, I'll say that the SM would win. An entire chapter is at least 1,000 marines strong with a fleet to assist. Each space marine is a battle hardened killing machine that even on the battlefield is a moral deterrent. Better equipped, trained, smarter, stronger, faster and more determined then the average guard soldier. There may be millions of guardsment but against a combined (or even single chapter) you're looking at mountains of dead. They rarely tire. Never stop. Out think you and have no fear. Heck, you may as well fight the T1000.

Correction:
The T-1000 is an unstoppable killing machine that would take a lot to fully destroy. I don't think it's a very fair and balanced way to describe the Space marines (they are still mortal) So, I'd like to amend my previous comparison. It would be like a US Navy Seals Team trying to set up a beach head on a heavily defended grade school during recess facing an army of pretty dangerous looking fifth graders armed with house hold weapons and Home alone style bobby traps.

Space marines are huge resulting in the inability to make good use of cover. Their numbers result in a lot less ground to cover meaning they are at an inherent disadvantage. Their weapons are useless because unlike the guard they cannot simply recharge their weapons. Space marines consistently stand on hills and fight to the death.

The guards marching and logistics will result in a lot of mud which means any Marine who stands on it or lands in it will get stuck and eventually die.

Space Marines rely on armour, which is bad. Armour is if you have failed as a soldier (using cover and not being seen).

The Space Marines are simply expensive targets with no practical use. I would put them near the bottom of the list in efficiency. They have no redeeming factors.

 Inkubas wrote:
There may be millions of guardsment but against a combined (or even single chapter) you're looking at mountains of dead.

Of course you are, but the point is that it doesn't matter. If the marines engage an entire regiment of guardsmen and slaughter all of them while losing only a single marine then the marines have suffered a crippling defeat. The planet full of guardsmen can simply throw more regiments at the marines until they win, and the price of victory will be one the IG will eagerly pay.

Not that it will really be that one-sided of course. Marines can effortlessly slaughter basic guardsmen by the hundreds, but don't forget about all of the plasma guns/tanks/artillery/etc. A squad of guardsmen just has to survive long enough to call in a Basilisk strike on their position and they'll probably kill the marines at a 1:1 ratio or better.

 Inkubas wrote:
After playing the games, reading the novels, and seeing the established lore I can't help but feel that space marines are supposed to be this super powerful elite force of genhanced humans. However, on the tabletop they come across as average and underwhelming. This isn't a rant about how the game should buff or nerf anything. This is more of a casual observation and query. How powerful are space marines and how powerful should they be? I don't think that a ten man squad can take out an entire planet solo nor do I think that a squad of imperial guard vets can ambush and kill an entire tactical squad. I think that space marines are in the middle somewhere. Come to think of it, I'd like you guys to reflect (based on the lore and to an extent the tabletop) where do you think all the different factions come across and better yet why?

Personally, here's where I think everyone should be:

Necron
Tyranids (full scale invasion)
Deamons (warp rift)
Eldar/Dark Eldar
Space Marines/Grey Knights/ Ork (waagh)
Orks
Tau
Imperial guard/Mechanicus/Sisters

I came up with this list by thinking about if a planet was infested with <insert faction> and a space marine chapter(s) was sent would the chapter(s) be able to retake the planet or have to call an Exterminatus. Necron, Tyranids and Deamons seem to be a really hard fight that would be extremely costly in terms of lives. Eldar and quelling a space marine revolt, and ork waaagh! seem to be a bit harder (costly but doable), and finally, Orks infestation, Tau, Imperial revolt seem to be more like meh. Thoughts?

There's some stuff that has to be kept in mind here.

Space Marine "power level" is extremely variable, and depends highly on the author and story. In some stories, they're effectively unkillable gods, where a single tactical squad will slay literally thousands of enemies with nary a scratch (e.g. Brothers of the Snake), and in other portrayals they die left and right to relatively mundane foes and weapons (e.g. Storm of Iron).

One also has to remember that many of their foes are just as scary as they are, if not moreso. A Tyranid Warrior is more than a match for a basic Space Marine, something like an Ork Nob has always been portrayed as being a physical equal in terms of raw strength and survivability. Necron Warriors have always been similarly strong and typically even more resilient with similar if not better weaponry. Space Marines are superhuman super soldiers, yes, but then, lots of their foes are just as powerful.

It also must be kept in mind that 40k games typically honestly are rather awkward representations of battles. Dark Eldar or Harlequins aren't going to engage in a pitched frontal battle with a mechanized IG tank company for instance, and you're probably never going to find a truly good fluff example of an Imperial Knight fighting on the side of Orks against the the Inquisition despite the rules allowing it. With this in mind, we can see most battles that Space Marines are engaging in ont he table aren't really to their favor, they're not dropping on unsuspecting command elements or holding confined passes against channeled mobs of foes, but rather are fighting pitched conventional battles typically, and that's simply a symptom of the reality of the tabletop.


EDIT: it also has to be kept in mind that in the fluff, Space Marine numbers are ludicrously low. With literally billions of IG regiments, we're talking hundreds of millions of guardsmen *per* Space Marine, and a Space Marine might be worth (depending on your source) 10-100 guardsmen, which ultimately means the entirety of the Astartes has a military value equal to that of a few hours of yearly IG recruitment. The IG could sustain casualties equal to that of the population of Russia and still come out ahead in terms of relative value relative to a Space Marine chapter losing a single Tactical marine, and of course a single Tactical marine has nowhere near the value of nearly 200 million guardsmen. And that's not even getting into the Imperial Navy, Planetary Defense Forces, Rogue Trader forces, private armies of noble houses, or the forces of the Inquisition.

True and I'm not saying that a space marine chapter is the end all be all. If space marines assault a chaos planet things will turn out bad for them. I'd expect a space marine chapter to be destroyed or devastated attempting to stop a hive fleet, and if a single space marine was in a room with a nob, I'd expect the nob to either win or give him a good run for his money. I know that you can read book (A) and have 3 marines take out Hundreds (if not thousands of orks) - Dawn of War or read book (B) and die to a man (Helsreach) but there are some things that 'known'. For example, everyone tends to agree that most Eldar come across as self serving and arrogant. When C.S goto puts down that Eldar steal Leman Russ tanks, it makes people go "What?" and that's because people have a notion to where Eldar are. I'm asking if there is a BASE for space marines or are marines just a variable?

EDIT:Just read your previous statement. I'm not saying the IoM n vs a SM. What I'm asking is if a space marine chapter is assaulting a rouge world. I'm not even asking talking about a system. Just one planet. So yea, there would be casualties but not enough to deter an entire chapter.

 Inkubas wrote:
True and I'm not saying that a space marine chapter is the end all be all. If space marines assault a chaos planet things will turn out bad for them. I'd expect a space marine chapter to be destroyed or devastated attempting to stop a hive fleet, and if a single space marine was in a room with a nob, I'd expect the nob to either win or give him a good run for his money. I know that you can read book (A) and have 3 marines take out Hundreds (if not thousands of orks) - Dawn of War or read book (B) and die to a man (Helsreach) but there are some things that 'known'. For example, everyone tends to agree that most Eldar come across as self serving and arrogant. When C.S goto puts down that Eldar steal Leman Russ tanks, it makes people go "What?" and that's because people have a notion to where Eldar are. I'm asking if there is a BASE for space marines or are marines just a variable?

Unfortunately there isn't really a base.

Earlier in 40k's existence, the fluff was at least *more* in line with the game (and in the first incarnation of 40k, Marines were T3 with a 4+sv that got reduced to a 5+ vs Lasguns), but as time has gone on, editions come and gone, and BL put out more and more books, Space Marine's have been portrayed more and more variably and often increasingly powerful, and in some measure of fairness with that, Marines have become better and better (getting T4 and a 3+ save by the end of RT, the game losing ASM's with 3E to make that 3+ sv mean more, and subsequently gaining things like Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, and wargear like grenades and pistols along with price decreases)

EDIT: as for Space Marines vs a single world, it really depends on the state of the planet. Against something like modern day Earth on a 40k technological level? I don't think a single chapter would have a chance. Too many foes, foes that are highly decentralized, and probably 100x or more as many things like artillery, tanks, aircraft, etc as there are Space Marines in a chapter.

 Vaktathi wrote:


Space Marine "power level" is extremely variable, and depends highly on the author and story. In some stories, they're effectively unkillable gods, where a single tactical squad will slay literally thousands of enemies with nary a scratch (e.g. Brothers of the Snake), and in other portrayals they die left and right to relatively mundane foes and weapons (e.g. Brothers of the Snake).

Edited your post slightly to better illustrate your point. That book really shows that Conservation of Ninjutsu is in full effect when talking Space Marines.

In the third story, a single squad of Marines takes out an entire Chaos planet.

In the fourth story, a full quarter-chapter gets wiped out by a three-rok Waaagh.

 Inkubas wrote:
I'm asking if there is a BASE for space marines or are marines just a variable?

They're variable, like virtually everything in 40k. The tabletop game is the closest you'll get to an accurate and consistent representation of marine power: they're elite infantry with excellent protection against small arms and a decent weapon, but they die just as easily as anyone else if you hit them with a shot from a demolisher cannon. In a situation of relatively equal numbers they should beat most other infantry, with the possible exception of Necrons and Eldar (which are probably a 50/50 fight). But against an enemy with a huge advantage in numbers or when fighting against tanks/artillery/etc without an equal number of their own tanks they're cannon fodder just like any other infantry.

So yea, there would be casualties but not enough to deter an entire chapter.

Of course not. The marines would rush to martyr themselves, and they would be wiped out. Marines simply do not win against a whole planet unless the author has no understanding of scale. But they'll still do it because god told them to.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:


Space Marine "power level" is extremely variable, and depends highly on the author and story. In some stories, they're effectively unkillable gods, where a single tactical squad will slay literally thousands of enemies with nary a scratch (e.g. Brothers of the Snake), and in other portrayals they die left and right to relatively mundane foes and weapons (e.g. Brothers of the Snake).

Edited your post slightly to better illustrate your point. That book really shows that Conservation of Ninjutsu is in full effect when talking Space Marines.

In the third story, a single squad of Marines takes out an entire Chaos planet.

In the fourth story, a full quarter-chapter gets wiped out by a three-rok Waaagh.

Really? I never finished the book, I stopped reading after the big DE fight, it was simply too ridiculous for me to deal with

Yeah... heh. It's... not one of Dan's most internally consistent works.

Its great if you take it as a satire on Space Marine fiction in general, though!

I'd say as powerful as anyone desires them to be in their own iteration of the fluff, and this includes players the same as official GW writers.

The problem with spesss mehreeens portrayal in fluff and rules is actually simple. In the beginning (Rogue Trader) they're just described as elite human soldiers, and truth is, even back then, they had "elite" stats if compared to regular humans, although still T3, plus power armor was just 4+. Later (2nd edition iirc) they got upgraded to the profile we all know today.

And that's it. It's the profile of an elite fighter from a human standpoint, the ultimate pinnacle of human infantry. The issue arises when some pieces of fluff begin to (inconsistently) depict them as demigods who walk into the battlefield without even bothering to take cover, each marine slaughtering thousands of enemies without taking a scratch. Meanwhile, Chaos Space Marines fluff was kept relatively close to the rules, as they usually appear as the fiendish opponents of the true and almighty spesss mehreeens, and so die in droves as S4 T4 3+ soldiers should when faced with those ridiculous demigods.

I believe the easiest way out of this mess is to merely consider most "modern" fluff to be stinking propaganda. For the most part, Space Marines are still the elite but "mundane" soldiers depicted in Rogue Trader, and the stories portraying them as impossible wargods shouldn't be taken seriously. I feel sorry for all those players who dreamt of deploying "movie marines" one day over their gaming tables, but I'm afraid that's exactly it, a dream.

I just consider the actual 40k an arcade-style game that has more in common with Duke Nukem than some kind of serious story.

As I see it, once you realise that the 40k game has nothing in common with its own lore, it all starts to make more sense.

The 40k game exists so that you can take your very expensive models and play a game with very expensive rules, and you should be able to play that game with roughly even numbers even if one of you chose Grey Knights and one of you chose Imperial Guard. It would not be fair on the IG player otherwise, and it would also introduce mechanical problems into the game (and would probably be less fun for the IG player I imagine, who would not be very likely to score any kills). Not only that, but everyone would flock to elite armies even more, as they would need extremely few of them, gaining GW less $$$. So of course they balance it out. $$$ is all GW wants, even though it really doesn't seem like they want even that at times.

First, the tabletop is completely inaccurate when depicting wars. As another user noted above, it would never be a straight on fight between two armies on opposite sides of a canyon. Dark Eldar and Eldar would get slaughtered, because there just aren't enough of them. You field more Eldar models in a 1500 point game than the Eldar can field on ANY planet bar one of their Craftworlds. The second problem is I see people saying that if Space Marines fought Guard they would be charging in with tactical marines against a fortified position. Pish-posh. Space Marines are super human, and I'm sure that for the most part they exhibit sound tactics. Of course this changes from Chapter to Chapter (Flesh Tearers compared to Ultramarines). What people aren't considering are all of the cool toys that Space Marines have and would utilize in order to combat an enemy, such as drop pod assaults, land raiders, terminator deep strikes, and Thunderhawk bombing runs. The second part is that Space Marines are one cog of a giant machine known as the Imperium. For the most part, if trying to take a planet back from <insert enemy here> I highly doubt that they will be sent on their own.