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Going to a tournament this weekend. The army I consistently have trouble against is Necrons, and their Protocols!

I have
GK CAD
Two PML3 Libbys
Two min GKSS
Three Dreadknights Jumpers
Draigo
SM Allied Detachment
PML2 Libby, Auspex
5xScouts
3x Grav Cents

First, I'm torn between Ultramarine and Red Hunter Tactics. Having a turn of Interceptor or Skyfire on my Cents would be lovely, but getting to re-roll snap shots once and getting to re-roll 1's once would also be nice.

My ideas are to keep my forward forces together, don't split up, hit one flank very hard, and slowly chew through a unit at a time. I'm worried that this tactic won't give me enough time to control the rest of the board.

This is what I took to a Tourney 2 months ago and did very well against the Necrons I faced.


HQ
Tiggy

TROOPS
5 Man Tactical w/MG, Rhino
5 Man Tactical w/MG, Rhino

HEAVY SUPPORT
5 Centurions with Grav, Omniscope
Thunderfire Cannon
Thunderfire Cannon

NEMESIS STRIKE FORCE

HQ
Libbys w/Daemon Hammer, Lvl3, Liber Deamonica

TROOPS
Strike Squad

HEAVY SUPPORT
Dreadknight w/Teleporter, Sword, Incinerator

LORD OF WAR
Draigo


INQUISITION DETATCHMENT

Coteaz

What you want is Red Scorpions instead. Sevrin gives you invisibility automatically, so now you get to spend less points on Librarians.

Yes, lets resort to cheese just to kill Necrons. Woo!

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yes, lets resort to cheese just to kill Necrons. Woo!

Fight cheese with cheese.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yes, lets resort to cheese just to kill Necrons. Woo!

Fight cheese with cheese.

What in Necrons is cheese besides Wraiths?

 krodarklorr wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yes, lets resort to cheese just to kill Necrons. Woo!

Fight cheese with cheese.

What in Necrons is cheese besides Wraiths?

Clearly its Trazyn, that guy is so hard to permanently put down that he doesn't even show up on the tabletop! That's a definite sign of how OP the Necrons are

 Grimskul wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Yes, lets resort to cheese just to kill Necrons. Woo!

Fight cheese with cheese.

What in Necrons is cheese besides Wraiths?

Clearly its Trazyn, that guy is so hard to permanently put down that he doesn't even show up on the tabletop! That's a definite sign of how OP the Necrons are

Aww man, you're totally right. I would feel like a jackass if I ever fielded him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To be more on topic, GravCents with Invisibility and all that stuff are still going to kill whatever they shoot at. That's not going to change whether it's Necrons or not.

Most Necron units aren't cheese. The Decurion Detachment is, however.

I agree. The Decurion Detachment is what makes Necrons so difficult.

 krodarklorr wrote:

To be more on topic, GravCents with Invisibility and all that stuff are still going to kill whatever they shoot at. That's not going to change whether it's Necrons or not.

Let's say my 3 Grav Cents shoot at 10 Marines (which costs roughly 170pts). That's 15 shots, 10 hits, and wounding on 3+ with re-rolls, 7-8 wounds = 7-8 Marines dead.
Now let's say my same unit shoots at 15 Warriors (which costs roughly 185pts). 15 shots, 10 hits, wounds on 4+ with re-rolls, 7-8 wounds, 3-4 Warriors Reanimate = 3-4 Warriors dead.

Cents are literally half as effective against Warriors as against Marines. If we took away Reanimate, they would be equally effective. This directly contradicts your claim that things don't change "whether it's Necrons or not." It definitely changes against Necrons!
So yeah, that's pretty cheesy. 4+ reanimate, and sometimes re-rolling 1's, stinks like an aged Roquefort.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

So yeah, that's pretty cheesy. 4+ reanimate, and sometimes re-rolling 1's, stinks like an aged Roquefort.

I could say the same about GravCents.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I agree. The Decurion Detachment is what makes Necrons so difficult.

 krodarklorr wrote:

To be more on topic, GravCents with Invisibility and all that stuff are still going to kill whatever they shoot at. That's not going to change whether it's Necrons or not.

Let's say my 3 Grav Cents shoot at 10 Marines (which costs roughly 170pts). That's 15 shots, 10 hits, and wounding on 3+ with re-rolls, 7-8 wounds = 7-8 Marines dead.
Now let's say my same unit shoots at 15 Warriors (which costs roughly 185pts). 15 shots, 10 hits, wounds on 4+ with re-rolls, 7-8 wounds, 3-4 Warriors Reanimate = 3-4 Warriors dead.

Cents are literally half as effective against Warriors as against Marines. If we took away Reanimate, they would be equally effective. This directly contradicts your claim that things don't change "whether it's Necrons or not." It definitely changes against Necrons!
So yeah, that's pretty cheesy. 4+ reanimate, and sometimes re-rolling 1's, stinks like an aged Roquefort.

That's a little inaccurate. Marines lose ~8.889 models, Warriors ~7.5 (assuming no reanimation). That base difference is independent of Necron involvement - it's just armor saves. The reanimation part is necron.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I agree. The Decurion Detachment is what makes Necrons so difficult.

 krodarklorr wrote:

To be more on topic, GravCents with Invisibility and all that stuff are still going to kill whatever they shoot at. That's not going to change whether it's Necrons or not.

Let's say my 3 Grav Cents shoot at 10 Marines (which costs roughly 170pts). That's 15 shots, 10 hits, and wounding on 3+ with re-rolls, 7-8 wounds = 7-8 Marines dead.
Now let's say my same unit shoots at 15 Warriors (which costs roughly 185pts). 15 shots, 10 hits, wounds on 4+ with re-rolls, 7-8 wounds, 3-4 Warriors Reanimate = 3-4 Warriors dead.

Cents are literally half as effective against Warriors as against Marines. If we took away Reanimate, they would be equally effective. This directly contradicts your claim that things don't change "whether it's Necrons or not." It definitely changes against Necrons!
So yeah, that's pretty cheesy. 4+ reanimate, and sometimes re-rolling 1's, stinks like an aged Roquefort.

That's the entire point though: the strength of the army is that they're supposed to be hard for armies that rely on a low volume of specialized shooting to kill. Sure, the Warriors are twice as hard to kill as the tac marine, but the warrior squad is never gonna pull plasma or grav guns out of its ass. It's never gonna drop out of the sky with melta guns or flamers either. Their shooting power is minimal and they rely on their survivability to whittle you down. The way to deal with them is to bring volume of fire (Thunderfire cannons are nice, as are Whirlwinds/Vindicators or allied guard tanks), or to engage them in assault.

You're an imperial player: you have access to half the books in the game as battle brother allies. Just because you have to stretch a bit in order to blow them away like you do other armies doesn't mean the army is OP by default.

 ClutterEater wrote:

That's the entire point though: the strength of the army is that they're supposed to be hard for armies that rely on a low volume of specialized shooting to kill. Sure, the Warriors are twice as hard to kill as the tac marine, but the warrior squad is never gonna pull plasma or grav guns out of its ass. It's never gonna drop out of the sky with melta guns or flamers either. Their shooting power is minimal and they rely on their survivability to whittle you down. The way to deal with them is to bring volume of fire (Thunderfire cannons are nice, as are Whirlwinds/Vindicators or allied guard tanks), or to engage them in assault.

You're an imperial player: you have access to half the books in the game as battle brother allies. Just because you have to stretch a bit in order to blow them away like you do other armies doesn't mean the army is OP by default.

This.....was.....beautiful.

 ClutterEater wrote:
That's the entire point though: the strength of the army is that they're supposed to be hard for armies that rely on a low volume of specialized shooting to kill. Sure, the Warriors are twice as hard to kill as the tac marine, but the warrior squad is never gonna pull plasma or grav guns out of its ass. It's never gonna drop out of the sky with melta guns or flamers either. Their shooting power is minimal and they rely on their survivability to whittle you down. The way to deal with them is to bring volume of fire (Thunderfire cannons are nice, as are Whirlwinds/Vindicators or allied guard tanks), or to engage them in assault.

You're an imperial player: you have access to half the books in the game as battle brother allies. Just because you have to stretch a bit in order to blow them away like you do other armies doesn't mean the army is OP by default.

-They never pull grav or plasma, but kill Vehicles just fine.

-They do drop out of the sky, but their drop pods arrive turn 2 earliest and shoot Tesla.

-Reanimation makes them more resilient against all methods of shooting, not just specialist. In fact, specialist (insomuch as being AP4) is incentivized to reduce them to just one set of saves. Heavy bolters, hilariously, are your friends here.

As a Skitarii and Necron player, I just wanted to say that to destroy Necrons outright, you do need an open mind on which armies you take and ally with, each has their own advantages. The Guard have the LRBT, which from my experience can destroy my squads very quickly. Space Marines have many special units which are good for killing Necrons, I've always had a problem with Sternguard, as their special ammo just has more of an effect. Blood Angels can field Death Company, and they are just so annoying against Warriors with the right loadout. Skittari have you covered when it comes to destroying Necron vehicles...Arc rifles can decimate Monoliths, Icarus arrays can destroy Night Scythes. My idea is to work in unison with all of the Imperium to your advantage. Failing that, just destroy them with some Eldar cheese.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 ClutterEater wrote:
That's the entire point though: the strength of the army is that they're supposed to be hard for armies that rely on a low volume of specialized shooting to kill. Sure, the Warriors are twice as hard to kill as the tac marine, but the warrior squad is never gonna pull plasma or grav guns out of its ass. It's never gonna drop out of the sky with melta guns or flamers either. Their shooting power is minimal and they rely on their survivability to whittle you down. The way to deal with them is to bring volume of fire (Thunderfire cannons are nice, as are Whirlwinds/Vindicators or allied guard tanks), or to engage them in assault.

You're an imperial player: you have access to half the books in the game as battle brother allies. Just because you have to stretch a bit in order to blow them away like you do other armies doesn't mean the army is OP by default.

-They never pull grav or plasma, but kill Vehicles just fine.

-They do drop out of the sky, but their drop pods arrive turn 2 earliest and shoot Tesla.

-Reanimation makes them more resilient against all methods of shooting, not just specialist. In fact, specialist (insomuch as being AP4) is incentivized to reduce them to just one set of saves. Heavy bolters, hilariously, are your friends here.

Gauss does a great job against vehicles, but it doesn't do you any favors against much of anything else, in which case they're just bolters. And the rest of the army can't access any of the specialized shooting that you would need to deal with MCs or TEQ very easily unless you dip into destroyers a lot.

Units in Night Scythes are spending 130 points to arrive later than a 35 point drop pod, and with less potential range when they do come in. They aren't at all comparable to the flexibility of the drop pod.

Volume of AP4 fire is the way to go. When I say specialized shooting, I'm really referring to the grav/plasma spam that is so common amongst so many armies. Doesn't matter how low the AP is if it doesn't ignore reanimation. You're better off just getting AP4, because presumably it's cheap enough that you can get more of it than you can get AP2. Also battlecannons, because battlecannons.

It doesn't matter who my allies MIGHT be in an ideal world.
I have a specific set of models and a very small model budget. Buying and painting loads of new models at this juncture is not a possibility. I have mostly GK and a few Marines to play with in the tournament.

What is some advice referencing the list I've posted above?

We'll have to disagree on Scythes. I believe a pair of dedicated transports which bring in their cargo with modified deep strike rules are very comparable.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
It doesn't matter who my allies MIGHT be in an ideal world.
I have a specific set of models and a very small model budget. Buying and painting loads of new models at this juncture is not a possibility. I have mostly GK and a few Marines to play with in the tournament.

What is some advice referencing the list I've posted above?

I was replying to someone else, and in that post I was mostly trying to address the theoretical competitive environment where people can and do use allies. Obviously that doesn't apply to you. In your case, I'd say that the Dreadknights are your greatest strengths, and I like Marshall Ragnar's idea of tacking on a Thunderfire cannon or two for fire support. I'd definitely go with the Red Hunter tactics, as the potential for Skyfire (or whatever other rules you want) gives you a lot of flexibility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
We'll have to disagree on Scythes. I believe a pair of dedicated transports which bring in their cargo with modified deep strike rules are very comparable.

Scythes cost like 4 times more than a pod, they have a 24" range from your board edge in which you can deploy and fire without snap shooting, and they cannot come in first turn. To have them reliably come in turn 2, you need to pay for reserve mods in some form. You also don't have the ability to put almost anything in a night scythe. The only things you can drop are characters, warriors, immortals, and lychguard. None of those things are useful for anything other than potentially glancing a tank to death, or shredding some cheap infantry. You could use it as an Orikan-star delivery system, but then like 700 points are off the table and reliant on a single reserve roll (and they still don't get to charge until turn 3). The tesla on the Scythe is marginally useful, because you get about a single "run" off with it before you have to fly off the board.

Drop pods can deliver specialized weaponry directly to the appropriate target, they SCORE, and you can put almost anything in them: grav cents, skitarii, inquisitors, tac marines, whatever you want! They can be combo'd easily with Inquisitors + Servo Skulls for near precision deep strike in up to three places on the board, and your guys can always fire non-heavy weapons when they get out of them regardless of where they deploy.

No contest.

Again, we'll have to disagree. I could launch into an explanation as to why, but this isn't the thread to do it.

Ahh.... Decurion... nothing like a free +33% durability to most units with virtually minimal cost... and up to +100% durability on some unites ie Wraiths under certain conditions...

IMO the Necron Dex is quite balanced if Decurion is not used.


How about Tiggy or Loth instead of two ML3 Libbies to free up some poitns, maybe even a 4th Cent?

 Zagman wrote:
Ahh.... Decurion... nothing like a free +33% durability to most units with virtually minimal cost... and up to +100% durability on some unites ie Wraiths under certain conditions...

IMO the Necron Dex is quite balanced if Decurion is not used.


How about Tiggy or Loth instead of two ML3 Libbies to free up some poitns, maybe even a 4th Cent?

For casual games? You are correct.

In a tournament setting, Decurion is basically all Necrons have to compete unless they're just spamming Wraiths.

So I've put together this new list.

GK CAD
Libby, PML 3, DLD
2xGKSS, 5-man
3x NDKs, all the guns and teleporters
Draigo

SM Allied
Loth
Tac Squad, 5 men, Drop Pod, Melta
Cents, 3 men, Grav


I like the idea of auto-invis for Loth. But in my first iteration, I had two additional WC, and with the SM Libby could roll on Biomancy for the chance at Life Leech and Endurance (which are both invaluable for keeping my ICs and Cents alive).

With this new list, I get a Libby with random Sanctic, and picked powers on either Invis or Bio.
With the original list, I get random Sanctic, Bio, and either Telepathy or Divination, +2WC

I do like the mini melta drop in the new iteration.
However, I end up taking a much-downgraded Chapter Tactics because FnP on five measly marines is nothing compared to Skyfire/Interceptor/Hatred (Red Hunters) or re-rolling Snap Shots/re-rolling 1's (Ultramarines)

Batteries of 3 quad bolter rapiers are excellent against Necrons.
Getting 16 st5 ap4 hits on average (18 bs4 tl shots). Looking at about 6 dead decurion warriors. Which means in one turn of shooting against warriors, the battery makes 2/3's of its points back.
It is also mathmatically the most points efficient weapon I have found to deal with wraiths

Well, thanks, all, for the advice. The tournament was really fun this weekend, and I never actually played Necrons!

First game was against a mirror list. He had six cents to my three, and two Dreads to my three, and Scouts instead of Drop Pod Tac. Very interesting game. It basically turned into a Gate-off, where we would each save all our DtW dice to deny Gate, thereby leaving the expensive Cents sitting in the backfield. Because I had a Drop Pod and three Jumping MCs, this let me win the mobility war and claim lots of objectives.

Second game was against 4 Forgeworld Knights, the first time I've fought more than two. I got me teef kicked in. I made a serious tactical blunder and was subsequently tabled. Live and learn.

Third game was against non-competitive BA: three full Tac squads walking; two frag cannon Dreads, a Stormraven, Astorath with 5 DC, 5 SGuard+Priest. We went until turn 4, when I tabled him.

Fourth game was against CSM+Allied Daemons. He deployed very defensively (because of shunting Psilencers), which let him last the game, but it was pretty bloody. On T7, he had a single spawn left, and I had one NDK, the Pod, three Strikers, and both my Libbys.

I got 2nd overall, with the 4-Knight list getting 1st; he also beat 4th and 5th place, while 3rd place somehow slipped by unnoticed (with a 3-Knight list).