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I keep seeing all this "Man I cant wait till the eldar players get a load of this" or "Man eldar getting a taste of their own cheese medicine", or "ha Eldar gonna be sweating now" and so on and so forth.
What I dont think people understand is that I (and others) hope the other races get buffed, hope they get some new op units and weapons. Anything to make the game more "balanced" or that causes SOME of the eldar hate to be shifted away.
I want the new breachers/destroyers. I want buffed marines. I want dark eldar, chaos marines, dark angels, and the like to get the new OP units.
In fact, I wish eldar weren't the best book. I prefer back in 5th, when eldar were one of the worst books. At least then I could try my hardest to win, and when I won their was no complaining from the opponent.
Maybe this isnt new news, maybe it is, either way those are my thoughts.
I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine.
Nobody is (or at least nobody should be) complaining at Eldar players directly.
The big issue is that GW spent the last part of 6E and the first six months of 7E actively reducing army power and removing units and options, and then switched paradigms with the Necron and Eldar codex books, massively buffing two armies already seen to be very powerful and if anything in need of toning down (after already having toned down books that were in need of some enhancement) and bringing in a ton of new options (after just having removed a whole bunch from other armies).
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody is (or at least nobody should be) complaining at Eldar players directly.
Unless they actually use the models rules they paid for. Then they're all net listing try hards with nothing going on in their lives who have to WAAC with their plastic toy army they paid 2 win for.
I'm new, but this has been a steady constant in every single 40k forum I've been looking at. It's downright hostile unless you play to some kind of invisible standard, of which can change over night with a book release and make you "that guy" with Ann army you've spent hundreds or even thousands of dollars on and God knows how much time painting.
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody is (or at least nobody should be) complaining at Eldar players directly.
Unless they actually use the models rules they paid for. Then they're all net listing try hards with nothing going on in their lives who have to WAAC with their plastic toy army they paid 2 win for.
I'm new, but this has been a steady constant in every single 40k forum I've been looking at. It's downright hostile unless you play to some kind of invisible standard, of which can change over night with a book release and make you "that guy" with Ann army you've spent hundreds or even thousands of dollars on and God knows how much time painting.
It's nuts.
Yeah, it really is nuts. I've seen some pretty toxic gak, especially in the comments sections for 40k-related videos on YouTube, mostly coming from grown-ass men at that, and it makes absolutely no sense at all to me that anyone could take a game that seriously. It's the kinda gak that makes you really hate calling yourself part of the community. As I've said before, I think the divisiveness and general hostility in the 40k community has turned me off the game more than GW's horrid rules and downright spiteful business practices have. I can't bring myself to play small games at my local store, or even put paint to a model anymore. I don't even know if I remember what it was that drew me to 40k in the first place.
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody is (or at least nobody should be) complaining at Eldar players directly.
Unless they actually use the models rules they paid for. Then they're all net listing try hards with nothing going on in their lives who have to WAAC with their plastic toy army they paid 2 win for.
If they're going to go out of their way to take full advantage of the most abusive aspects the book has to offer, then that's going to be expected. I'd get the same thing bringing Wyverns to a 500pt game with an IG army. You get the same leveled at Daemon players running 2++ rerollable deathstars. That's not unique to Eldar.
Yeah, it really is nuts. I've seen some pretty toxic gak, especially in the comments sections for 40k-relatedalmost any videos on YouTube, mostly coming from grown-ass men at that
Fixed.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Sunday I have a game against my eldar friend(pure eldar: craftworld, dark, and harley).
I literally just dropped of a troupe box, void weaver, and 2 boxes of skyweavers to him(to pay off the orks i got off him for my kid).
He also played Iyandan since 3rd along with Ulthwe.
Then his DE is bike heavy with a fair mix a warriors and wyches.
I have no fears even though i know he is bringing the wraith formation, the seer council formation and some harley formation.
I will be playing a tank heavy guard and foot grey knights unbound with I dreads and devs.
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody is (or at least nobody should be) complaining at Eldar players directly.
Unless they actually use the models rules they paid for. Then they're all net listing try hards with nothing going on in their lives who have to WAAC with their plastic toy army they paid 2 win for.
I'm new, but this has been a steady constant in every single 40k forum I've been looking at. It's downright hostile unless you play to some kind of invisible standard, of which can change over night with a book release and make you "that guy" with Ann army you've spent hundreds or even thousands of dollars on and God knows how much time painting.
It's nuts.
Yeah, how dare people get annoyed when the units they paid hundreds or even thousands for hardly have a fighting chance because the units their opponent chose today got unneeded buffs. Nobody wants to buy, paint, and set up an army just so their Eldar friend can tell them which order to put their units away again.
I get your point but you seem to be having a double standard of "Its not ok to ask me not to have fun with the units I paid for but it's totally ok for me to always ruin the fun you want to have with the units you paid for".
Vaktathi wrote: Nobody is (or at least nobody should be) complaining at Eldar players directly.
Unless they actually use the models rules they paid for. Then they're all net listing try hards with nothing going on in their lives who have to WAAC with their plastic toy army they paid 2 win for.
If they're going to go out of their way to take full advantage of the most abusive aspects the book has to offer, then that's going to be expected. I'd get the same thing bringing Wyverns to a 500pt game with an IG army. You get the same leveled at Daemon players running 2++ rerollable deathstars. That's not unique to Eldar.
I know, I talked about that in the 2nd part of my post, but I'll expand even further.
It's only expected because you've been playing long enough to know all of the unwritten etiquette that dominates the clique's scene. There's no way you can tell me one should expect to buy hundreds of dollars worth of books for rules and codexes and expect that it's completely normal to not be able to use them to their fullest. Or buy models they like that they might not be able to use in even tournaments that have pages of FAQs and changes about what you can and can't bring and how much or other people won't play you if you happen to like any of the currently "not acceptable" units, armies, or configurations.
Then it's even more of a shock because the introduction mantra is "play what you like" gets repeated to newbies without a mention of the dominating meta culture most of the time. If it got explained fully that you need to not use certain models or parts of your book, which can change overnight if a new one gets released, people would look at you like you have a third head with what this stuff costs. Which is precisely the reaction I got when I was asking around my wife's pinball league at the game shop when I asked about 40k that also gets played there during a different night.
I expect any game or community to have it's balance bitching, I understand you can't avoid it in a non-symmetrical design. It's in every kind of game, table or video. But this game requires a significant investment to get going in, and continue to, play. You can say it's GW's fault and you'd be right in that their poor balance is the driving factor for the vitriol and ire displayed by the community, but the reaction has been an underlying hypocritical attitude of buy what you like, collect what you want ... ... ... just not if you want to play games if it happens to be what the community doesn't like this month. It isn't just Eldar because it can happen to anyone with any army or unit when the time comes around for an update; and reading about veteran players' experiences, that's exactly what has happened over the years several times. Then what? Buy a new army if you happen to be "that guy" now? Shelve a bunch of units that aren't socially acceptable anymore and replace them with different ones? It isn't enough that you had to buy a $60 book, but now entire sections of it's structure are off limits?
I don't have an answer; I just know if that's the expectation, yeah, it's nuts.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/05/16 12:28:46
On the flip side of the coin, as soon as one mentions that they believe the eldar OP, they get jumped on, told they need to 'learn to play' better, get called whiners and cry babies, are told they are throwing their toys out of the pram and are generally insulted continuously by a minority of eldar apologists.
The majority of eldar apologists are fine and formulate good discussions, but I have seen far far more venom from the apologists than from those who dislike how OP the new dex is.
As already stated - any annoyance at the current dex should be directed at the rules not the Eldar players.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also after running the maths on the breachers and destroyers, you may be slightly disappointed to hear that they are no where near the effectiveness of grav cents or wraithguard.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/16 12:52:16
There are several options if you know your opponent is not bringing a power list and you want to have a good time. (Credentials: my first army was Space Wolves in a Space Wolves meta, then orks when Kan Wall was one of the best builds, then Necrons when they got their new super powerful codex. I still play my Necrons, which are the current bully in the playground. I have never gotten army complaints.)
1) don't quite play the current power build. If you want to use your special chapter master on a bike that you made, and he happens to not have three specific relic items on him, he's not the current crazy power build. You want Eldar jetbikes? Well, maybe they don't need scatter lasers? Are scatter lasers absolutely vital to your fluff? Almost every single meta unit has equipment options that make them not as strong, and nobody's going to complain about a counts-as. But let's say you want to run them as is? Why SHOULDNT you run your meta power build army-you just so happened to wind up with two dozen Windriders and three D-cannon WKs while you were collecting what you want and perish the thought that you looked up the internet power build! That's ridiculous and you have a right to play what you want. Well maybe you should...
2) actually warn your opponent. Sometimes to have a half decent game you do need to tell your opponent what's coming. Yes, a WK/Windrider list WILL win 100% of the time against most normal, balanced 40k lists. It's not internet hype, unless your opponent constructs his list to prepare you will win every single game without trying. So you want to have fun? Talk to your opponent about what you have and give him a chance to tailor to make it fair. If he refuses to play you, that's not him being a jerk, that's him understandBly not wanting to spend 3-5 hours on a pointless exercise-which, the sad truth is it probably would be. 40k is and always has been imbalanced. The best way to play is to try and construct an army that's generally in line with the people you play against, because that will get you the best games.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
What I dont think people understand is that I (and others) hope the other races get buffed, hope they get some new op units and weapons. Anything to make the game more "balanced" or that causes SOME of the eldar hate to be shifted away.
The problem with this solution is that ultimately, you're looking at it backwards. When you have one real anomoly amongst 20-odd pieces of data (codexes), the correct option from a logical standpoint is not to shift the 19 points to fit the 1, but to reevaluate the 1 until it is more in line with the rest, giving you a lesser degree of difference for minimal effort.
A cycle of each book being better than the last, creating an arms race, is totally unhealthy for the game, as it:
- Drives people away as they feel they can't justify playing an army that is suddenly completely out of line with the rest of the game
- Drives people away as they become part of a smaller and smaller pool of armies far behind the rest
- Creates unrealistic expectations every time a new codex comes around, prompting people to leave as they feel they are 'owed' something as good as the latest powerhouse
- Generally divides the community and fosters hostility, both online and in real life
As far as I'm concerned, each new book that doesn't have an answer for top-power Eldar builds is a good thing for the hobby as a whole.
What I dont think people understand is that I (and others) hope the other races get buffed, hope they get some new op units and weapons. Anything to make the game more "balanced" or that causes SOME of the eldar hate to be shifted away.
The problem with this solution is that ultimately, you're looking at it backwards. When you have one real anomoly amongst 20-odd pieces of data (codexes), the correct option from a logical standpoint is not to shift the 19 points to fit the 1, but to reevaluate the 1 until it is more in line with the rest, giving you a lesser degree of difference for minimal effort.
A cycle of each book being better than the last, creating an arms race, is totally unhealthy for the game, as it:
- Drives people away as they feel they can't justify playing an army that is suddenly completely out of line with the rest of the game
- Drives people away as they become part of a smaller and smaller pool of armies far behind the rest
- Creates unrealistic expectations every time a new codex comes around, prompting people to leave as they feel they are 'owed' something as good as the latest powerhouse
- Generally divides the community and fosters hostility, both online and in real life
As far as I'm concerned, each new book that doesn't have an answer for top-power Eldar builds is a good thing for the hobby as a whole.
I agree with this post. We should just make it so that Eldar doesn't exist in 40k anymore as far as we know, and just play with/against every other army. That would be the best option, methinks.
What I dont think people understand is that I (and others) hope the other races get buffed, hope they get some new op units and weapons. Anything to make the game more "balanced" or that causes SOME of the eldar hate to be shifted away.
The problem with this solution is that ultimately, you're looking at it backwards. When you have one real anomoly amongst 20-odd pieces of data (codexes), the correct option from a logical standpoint is not to shift the 19 points to fit the 1, but to reevaluate the 1 until it is more in line with the rest, giving you a lesser degree of difference for minimal effort.
A cycle of each book being better than the last, creating an arms race, is totally unhealthy for the game, as it:
- Drives people away as they feel they can't justify playing an army that is suddenly completely out of line with the rest of the game
- Drives people away as they become part of a smaller and smaller pool of armies far behind the rest
- Creates unrealistic expectations every time a new codex comes around, prompting people to leave as they feel they are 'owed' something as good as the latest powerhouse
- Generally divides the community and fosters hostility, both online and in real life
As far as I'm concerned, each new book that doesn't have an answer for top-power Eldar builds is a good thing for the hobby as a whole.
I agree with this post. We should just make it so that Eldar doesn't exist in 40k anymore as far as we know, and just play with/against every other army. That would be the best option, methinks.
See, this attitude on the other hand is just pure stupid. The Eldar codex is HUGE. it contains units across all power levels, from units that are among the best in the game to among the worst (rangers and storm guardians.) it also contains non-crazy versions of the power units (catapult bikes, sun cannon WKs, on-foot Wraithguard) so you can play LITERALLY ANYTHING on any power level.
You see Eldar? TALK to your opponent. By all means raise your concerns about the fringe builds available within the codex. Tell them what you'll be bringing in the interest of having a good, close game. And once you agree, play the game and have fun, win or lose.
Jesus, it's really not hard folks.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
What I dont think people understand is that I (and others) hope the other races get buffed, hope they get some new op units and weapons. Anything to make the game more "balanced" or that causes SOME of the eldar hate to be shifted away.
The problem with this solution is that ultimately, you're looking at it backwards. When you have one real anomoly amongst 20-odd pieces of data (codexes), the correct option from a logical standpoint is not to shift the 19 points to fit the 1, but to reevaluate the 1 until it is more in line with the rest, giving you a lesser degree of difference for minimal effort.
A cycle of each book being better than the last, creating an arms race, is totally unhealthy for the game, as it:
- Drives people away as they feel they can't justify playing an army that is suddenly completely out of line with the rest of the game
- Drives people away as they become part of a smaller and smaller pool of armies far behind the rest
- Creates unrealistic expectations every time a new codex comes around, prompting people to leave as they feel they are 'owed' something as good as the latest powerhouse
- Generally divides the community and fosters hostility, both online and in real life
As far as I'm concerned, each new book that doesn't have an answer for top-power Eldar builds is a good thing for the hobby as a whole.
I agree with this post. We should just make it so that Eldar doesn't exist in 40k anymore as far as we know, and just play with/against every other army. That would be the best option, methinks.
See, this attitude on the other hand is just pure stupid. The Eldar codex is HUGE. it contains units across all power levels, from units that are among the best in the game to among the worst (rangers and storm guardians.) it also contains non-crazy versions of the power units (catapult bikes, sun cannon WKs, on-foot Wraithguard) so you can play LITERALLY ANYTHING on any power level.
You see Eldar? TALK to your opponent. By all means raise your concerns about the fringe builds available within the codex. Tell them what you'll be bringing in the interest of having a good, close game. And once you agree, play the game and have fun, win or lose.
Jesus, it's really not hard folks.
Agreed. You can fix Eldar in about 25 words:
- All Distortion weapons use the 6th Edition Distort rules
- Scatter Lasers are available to one in every three Jetbikes
What I dont think people understand is that I (and others) hope the other races get buffed, hope they get some new op units and weapons. Anything to make the game more "balanced" or that causes SOME of the eldar hate to be shifted away.
The problem with this solution is that ultimately, you're looking at it backwards. When you have one real anomoly amongst 20-odd pieces of data (codexes), the correct option from a logical standpoint is not to shift the 19 points to fit the 1, but to reevaluate the 1 until it is more in line with the rest, giving you a lesser degree of difference for minimal effort.
A cycle of each book being better than the last, creating an arms race, is totally unhealthy for the game, as it:
- Drives people away as they feel they can't justify playing an army that is suddenly completely out of line with the rest of the game
- Drives people away as they become part of a smaller and smaller pool of armies far behind the rest
- Creates unrealistic expectations every time a new codex comes around, prompting people to leave as they feel they are 'owed' something as good as the latest powerhouse
- Generally divides the community and fosters hostility, both online and in real life
As far as I'm concerned, each new book that doesn't have an answer for top-power Eldar builds is a good thing for the hobby as a whole.
I agree with this post. We should just make it so that Eldar doesn't exist in 40k anymore as far as we know, and just play with/against every other army. That would be the best option, methinks.
See, this attitude on the other hand is just pure stupid. The Eldar codex is HUGE. it contains units across all power levels, from units that are among the best in the game to among the worst (rangers and storm guardians.) it also contains non-crazy versions of the power units (catapult bikes, sun cannon WKs, on-foot Wraithguard) so you can play LITERALLY ANYTHING on any power level.
You see Eldar? TALK to your opponent. By all means raise your concerns about the fringe builds available within the codex. Tell them what you'll be bringing in the interest of having a good, close game. And once you agree, play the game and have fun, win or lose.
Jesus, it's really not hard folks.
In general, my play group uses the most vicious possible units in an effort to construct the best possible list. They're trying to avoid close games if possible, because things go wrong in close games. If someone it tabled by turn 3, there's little chance of things going sideways for them.
What I dont think people understand is that I (and others) hope the other races get buffed, hope they get some new op units and weapons. Anything to make the game more "balanced" or that causes SOME of the eldar hate to be shifted away.
The problem with this solution is that ultimately, you're looking at it backwards. When you have one real anomoly amongst 20-odd pieces of data (codexes), the correct option from a logical standpoint is not to shift the 19 points to fit the 1, but to reevaluate the 1 until it is more in line with the rest, giving you a lesser degree of difference for minimal effort.
A cycle of each book being better than the last, creating an arms race, is totally unhealthy for the game, as it:
- Drives people away as they feel they can't justify playing an army that is suddenly completely out of line with the rest of the game
- Drives people away as they become part of a smaller and smaller pool of armies far behind the rest
- Creates unrealistic expectations every time a new codex comes around, prompting people to leave as they feel they are 'owed' something as good as the latest powerhouse
- Generally divides the community and fosters hostility, both online and in real life
As far as I'm concerned, each new book that doesn't have an answer for top-power Eldar builds is a good thing for the hobby as a whole.
I agree with this post. We should just make it so that Eldar doesn't exist in 40k anymore as far as we know, and just play with/against every other army. That would be the best option, methinks.
See, this attitude on the other hand is just pure stupid. The Eldar codex is HUGE. it contains units across all power levels, from units that are among the best in the game to among the worst (rangers and storm guardians.) it also contains non-crazy versions of the power units (catapult bikes, sun cannon WKs, on-foot Wraithguard) so you can play LITERALLY ANYTHING on any power level.
You see Eldar? TALK to your opponent. By all means raise your concerns about the fringe builds available within the codex. Tell them what you'll be bringing in the interest of having a good, close game. And once you agree, play the game and have fun, win or lose.
Jesus, it's really not hard folks.
The second half of my post was partly sarcasm, and I know where you're coming from. But the sheer amount of things in that codex that need to be "discussed" beforehand is ridiculous. Wraithguard, Wraithknights, D-weapons, Scatterbikes, ext. That tells you how badly this codex is balanced. But, if someone wanted to play an Aspect oriented list, I'd be all for it, as it's strong, but not game breaking. However, this codex has almost destroyed the idea of me attempting pick-up games.
Hell, I was thinking of starting Eldar in the future, but the models I'd wanna run now kind of make me step away.
There are three things in the Eldar codex that are really strong.
1) All-scatter jetbikes. Play them with any other load out, they're fine.
2) D-scythe Wraithguard in a wave serpent. Again, any other load out/on foot, they're fine.
3) Wraithknight. More than 1 is over the top.
Other than that, there is nothing worth whining about in the CWE book. Don't play those options or allow your opponent to know they're coming (because hard counters do exist and they can be planned for) and you have no reason for whining and crying.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
The best thing about the new Eldar codex is that it got people to stop screaming the sky was falling in relation to the new Necron Codex.
Skitari have sooo much haywire, and nothing that sucks, and no one cares because their armies live in fear of the sky falling under the weight of 30 Eldar Jetbikes.
Most of the Eldar players in my local meta won't even field more than a single squad of jetbikes, or a wraith knight, in fear of being the victims of Anti-Eldar Hate Crimes being heaped upon them, or being scorned as a pariah in the gaming community.
My own Daemonic forces, growing by the day, wait eagerly for the day they will feast on those tasty Eldar souls.
What I dont think people understand is that I (and others) hope the other races get buffed, hope they get some new op units and weapons. Anything to make the game more "balanced" or that causes SOME of the eldar hate to be shifted away.
The problem with this solution is that ultimately, you're looking at it backwards. When you have one real anomoly amongst 20-odd pieces of data (codexes), the correct option from a logical standpoint is not to shift the 19 points to fit the 1, but to reevaluate the 1 until it is more in line with the rest, giving you a lesser degree of difference for minimal effort.
A cycle of each book being better than the last, creating an arms race, is totally unhealthy for the game, as it:
- Drives people away as they feel they can't justify playing an army that is suddenly completely out of line with the rest of the game
- Drives people away as they become part of a smaller and smaller pool of armies far behind the rest
- Creates unrealistic expectations every time a new codex comes around, prompting people to leave as they feel they are 'owed' something as good as the latest powerhouse
- Generally divides the community and fosters hostility, both online and in real life
As far as I'm concerned, each new book that doesn't have an answer for top-power Eldar builds is a good thing for the hobby as a whole.
Oh I agree 100%, but Gw would never do such a thing.
Therefore, Ill take the more likely option to happen (the new superunits) and be glad enough.
I do drugs.
Mostly Plastic Crack, but I do dabble in Cardboard Cocaine.
Martel732 wrote: In general, my play group uses the most vicious possible units in an effort to construct the best possible list. They're trying to avoid close games if possible, because things go wrong in close games. If someone it tabled by turn 3, there's little chance of things going sideways for them.
Well, no wonder you don't seem to like 40k very much. In that meta, I would never play 40k. Actually, I wouldn't play ANY collectible game with a crowd that considers tabling someone in 3 turns a good thing, because it's the furthest thing from a fun way to spend my evening that I can imagine. I would neither wish to table someone or he tabled by someone that quickly.
Martel732 wrote: In general, my play group uses the most vicious possible units in an effort to construct the best possible list. They're trying to avoid close games if possible, because things go wrong in close games. If someone it tabled by turn 3, there's little chance of things going sideways for them.
Well, no wonder you don't seem to like 40k very much. In that meta, I would never play 40k. Actually, I wouldn't play ANY collectible game with a crowd that considers tabling someone in 3 turns a good thing, because it's the furthest thing from a fun way to spend my evening that I can imagine. I would neither wish to table someone or he tabled by someone that quickly.
Exalted for truth.
Martel 732, if your opponents are so concerned with being competitive, they should be looking for close games. They're the best sigh that the armies and players on both sides of the table are playing at their best. Building an army to table someone by turn 3 is, depending on the group, bad sportsmanship.
Warhammer 40k has always had large disparities in power between factions. For better or worse, it's up to the players to find a way to balance things out.
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adamsouza wrote: The best thing about the new Eldar codex is that it got people to stop screaming the sky was falling in relation to the new Necron Codex.
Skitari have sooo much haywire, and nothing that sucks, and no one cares because their armies live in fear of the sky falling under the weight of 30 Eldar Jetbikes.
Most of the Eldar players in my local meta won't even field more than a single squad of jetbikes, or a wraith knight, in fear of being the victims of Anti-Eldar Hate Crimes being heaped upon them, or being scorned as a pariah in the gaming community.
My own Daemonic forces, growing by the day, wait eagerly for the day they will feast on those tasty Eldar souls.
I agree about the Necrons and Daemons. People are acting as if the only broken things in the game are in Codex: Eldar Craftworlds.
Fortunately, the codex is so blatantly OP in certain areas that most Eldar players that I know recognize the problem and avoiding the broken and cheesy units.
Part of the reason people we're so initially concerned about the Skitarii is because there was a lot of rumors going around that they were only part of a larger mechanicus release. And for once, the rumors were right.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/17 07:17:57
Yeah, how dare people get annoyed when the units they paid hundreds or even thousands for hardly have a fighting chance because the units their opponent chose today got unneeded buffs. Nobody wants to buy, paint, and set up an army just so their Eldar friend can tell them which order to put their units away again.
I get your point but you seem to be having a double standard of "Its not ok to ask me not to have fun with the units I paid for but it's totally ok for me to always ruin the fun you want to have with the units you paid for".
You can't say someone has a double standard (or even "seem to") because they didn't go through and list every single possible example of their point, it just isn't practical. Specifically, an army getting a significant power reduction (nerfed) with a book release is equally as nuts on the whole. Although I'd say the effect is a more complex situation since it's more subjective and debatable than outright banning units, rules, and armies for being too powerful. And you also have to consider that a less powerful army/unit/rule that you can still play isn't quite the same as an OP army/unit/rule you can't play at all. And again, taking my main point into consideration, it was about the weaker army becoming the "OP" one in a later release which can happen to anyone. Which just leads the same effect of what I was deriding when that happens; "who is right and wrong", "which side is meaner", "ban this army", all of usual which have reared their ugly head in this thread alone just with a different target.
Like I said, this is just what I see as a newer guy. If I didn't go through and research through a bunch of different forums and videos and talk to some people at the game shop first about the game before just "Playing what I wanted to" like so many people recklessly and hypocritically suggest, I might have actually picked up the wraith stuff that originally caught my eye. I don't want to deal with the bs, and even if I pick a different weaker army, I might have to deal with it any ways with a future book release? No thanks, I think I'm just going to skip the ride on this merry go round.
BlackSwanDelta wrote: No thanks, I think I'm just going to skip the ride on this merry go round.
That's probably the best thing for everyone at this point. GW isn't going to change without seeing that dumb rules decisions lose them significant sales and you get to avoid the headache of trying to make a massive time and money investment worth its cost. If you can find people to get into a different system, go for it.
Yep. More armies should be like Sisters of Battle.
We can get so much S8AP1 Ignores Cover into a 500 point, Battleforged-only game that its nearly impossible to lose (or, well, it was until Lychguard).
You ever heard someone complaining that the Sisters are overpowered?
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
BlackSwanDelta wrote: Like I said, this is just what I see as a newer guy. If I didn't go through and research through a bunch of different forums and videos and talk to some people at the game shop first about the game before just "Playing what I wanted to" like so many people recklessly and hypocritically suggest, I might have actually picked up the wraith stuff that originally caught my eye. I don't want to deal with the bs, and even if I pick a different weaker army, I might have to deal with it any ways with a future book release? No thanks, I think I'm just going to skip the ride on this merry go round.
Yeah, that was always the most annoying thing to me. The first thing anyone tells you when you show interest in 40k and ask for advice on choosing an army, is to pick whatever looks coolest. "Play whatever you want, doesn't matter, it's all personal preference."
But then you pick Tau because they have the coolest models and you hear "Pfft, Tau?! fething weeb...whatever, have fun not getting any games you WAAC douchebag." You immediately start receiving abuse and end up making yourself into an outcast and you don't even know what the hell you did wrong yet. Eldar I imagine will appeal to a lot of people because they have some of GW's best-looking models; the new jetbikes for example look awesome regardless of their rules, and being troops and thus a required purchase on top of that, people would naturally be drawn to building the core of their army out of jetbikes before even realizing what they're doing. The wraithknight is the biggest thing in the range and will naturally draw eyes to it, because everyone wants a big fancy centerpiece model for their army. Etc.
And you definitely have a point with the second part of your post. Almost every army goes through a period like this, and the attitude in the community is that when your chosen army wins the rules lottery and is made effectively unplayable because it's so OP, you're expected to just go out and start a new one to keep playing the game with, until edition changes or codex updates nerf your main army into the dirt and you can play again. I've gotten angry about being told to sell my Tau after the 2013 codex and the answer I got was basically "This is why people collect multiple armies." And when you protest about that? "This is an expensive hobby."
I've said it before and I'll say it a thousand more times, if I had any idea what I was getting into I'd have never spent a dime on 40k. Just so much bullgak.
Desubot wrote: Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.
"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game."
I think people in general are overreacting about the Eldar, I played several games against them and seen several played and though they are still strong they are not nearly as unbeatable or powerful as people make them out to be. I honestly chalk up a lot of it to Xenos bias since most players that seem to complain about it the most IoM ones when in fact they have been getting some of the nastiest updates recently out of any army. I wouldn't worry too much about what people think, play the army you want to play and how you want to play it.
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
Yeah, how dare people get annoyed when the units they paid hundreds or even thousands for hardly have a fighting chance because the units their opponent chose today got unneeded buffs. Nobody wants to buy, paint, and set up an army just so their Eldar friend can tell them which order to put their units away again.
I get your point but you seem to be having a double standard of "Its not ok to ask me not to have fun with the units I paid for but it's totally ok for me to always ruin the fun you want to have with the units you paid for".
You can't say someone has a double standard (or even "seem to") because they didn't go through and list every single possible example of their point, it just isn't practical. Specifically, an army getting a significant power reduction (nerfed) with a book release is equally as nuts on the whole. Although I'd say the effect is a more complex situation since it's more subjective and debatable than outright banning units, rules, and armies for being too powerful. And you also have to consider that a less powerful army/unit/rule that you can still play isn't quite the same as an OP army/unit/rule you can't play at all. And again, taking my main point into consideration, it was about the weaker army becoming the "OP" one in a later release which can happen to anyone. Which just leads the same effect of what I was deriding when that happens; "who is right and wrong", "which side is meaner", "ban this army", all of usual which have reared their ugly head in this thread alone just with a different target.
Like I said, this is just what I see as a newer guy. If I didn't go through and research through a bunch of different forums and videos and talk to some people at the game shop first about the game before just "Playing what I wanted to" like so many people recklessly and hypocritically suggest, I might have actually picked up the wraith stuff that originally caught my eye. I don't want to deal with the bs, and even if I pick a different weaker army, I might have to deal with it any ways with a future book release? No thanks, I think I'm just going to skip the ride on this merry go round.
But, once again, a full wraith army is not in any way overpowered if you don't just go specifically for the ridiculously strong units.
If you'd said oh wraith stuff cool, and gotten a wraithknight, Wraithguard and Wraithlord with some guardian troops you'd have a fine, balanced list that nobody who isn't a total douche could complain against.
It's just when you take specifically Scatter Laser Jetbikes D-cannon knights and Scythe Guard in wave serpents that you'll get complaints if you don't warn people, because for better or worse that army is going to win without a chance from any other army.
It's not like most other balanced games where "you'll win every time because you picked X" is an exaggeration. In 40 k, pick the power build of the strongest army and it's not uncommon to have a 100% winrate even when brand new.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
~3000 (Fully Painted)
Coming Soon!
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.