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Hi,

I´m pretty sure *we* have discussed this before but I couldn´t find any older threads on the issue and the FAQ didn´t really give me the answer I needed... 

Can Terminators shoot Rapid-Fire weapons and assault in the same turn..? Can it be answered by a "yes" or "no" and how have people played it at tournaments? It kinda matters if you play with a Wolf Guard Bodyguard Pack fully armed with combi-plasmas...

I say they can based on this (page  25, Codex: Space Marines):

Space Marines in Terminator Armour are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons.

And the rulebook, page 36:

Note: Some rare units always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons and some units can move and fire heavy weapons. Such units can charge after firing.

Seems quite clear to me even though it doesn´t adress Terminators (-in the rulebook). What´s the general concensus..?

I don't think that sentence alone cuts it, really. By that same rationale, an XV88 Broadside Suit could assault after firing his railgun, a heavy weapon, since the Broadside always counts as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons. In both cases the unit in question fulfil one of the two criteria, but not the actual one in question. I.e firing a heavy weapon and assaulting for the Broadside, and firing rapid fire weapon for the Terminators, and then assaulting.

There might be another snippet of text supporting the Terminators, but as I said I would guess that based only on what you submitted, the poor Terminators cannot fire rapid fire weapons and then assault.

It's cut and dried.

If you count as staionary for firing rapid fire weapons or can move and fire heavy weapons, you can assault after firing ANYTHING. Heck, you could even fire indirect ordnance and then assault.

Ah, interesting. Could you please direct me to either a page in the rule book, or the discussion on YMDC that settled the matter? Cause the one sentence posted above isn't the sole ground upon which that premise is based, is it? Not that I'm arguing with you, I am just being curious.

Cause the one sentence posted above isn't the sole ground upon which that premise is based, is it?

Yup, that's it... because it's the only sentence in the rulebook that applies to the situation.

The way it's written, a model with either of those abilities can assault after firing. Since it doesn;t specify what they must be firing, they can be firing anything.


That being said, I'm inclined to doubt that this is what was originally intended, since it gives the Defiler the ability to assault after firing its Battle Cannon... which to me just doesn't seem right. Doesn't change what the rule actually says, though.

You beat me with seconds. I was just about to ask if according to this rule, the general consensus is that the Defiler can assault after firing the Battle Cannon. RAW that is. Doesn't surprise me the slightest that there is much to ask for, regarding what the intent might or might not have been.

Thanks for clearing up that there is indeed only that very sentence concerning this issue.

Posted By skyth on 04/29/2006 2:44 PM
It's cut and dried.

If you count as staionary for firing rapid fire weapons or can move and fire heavy weapons, you can assault after firing ANYTHING. Heck, you could even fire indirect ordnance and then assault.

That is pure rules lawyering, it is very clear from the context that they are allowed to assault after firing the weapon they count as stationary while firing. I don't think people would take that stance if only one of the two was given at a time:

ie: Some units counts as stationary while firing rapid fire weapons, and these models can assault after firing.

Would anyone use that line to assault after firing a battlecannon on a Defiler? I don't think so, and this is the same thing, but with two examples in the first sentence instead of separated.

ie: Some units counts as stationary while firing rapid fire weapons, and these models can assault after firing.

Yup, that would still technically allow the Defiler to assault.

What you're looking for is 'after firing such weapons'... which simply isn't there.


We have a defiler. Let's call him Bob.

Bob fires a Battle Cannon.

Is Bob a model that can move and fire Heavy Weapons, or a model that counts as stationary for RF weapons? Yes, yes he is.
Is Bob firing? Yes, again.

The rule tells us that after firing, a model with either of those two attributes can assault.

It's that simple.


As I said, the actual intention is anybody's guess. My own take on this is a little mixed... I'm happy to allow Chaos Termies to assault after firing, but am not as happy about letting the Defiler do the same. But that's just me.

Ahoj!
There is the minor point of the Batle Cannon not being a Heavy Weapon, but Ordnance. Won't this change your perspective on Bob?

As to the OT - no idea what the consensus here is, but everybody I know (tournaments included) plays it that Terminators (regardless if SM, CSM or Inq) can move, fire Heavy and Rapid Fire weapons as if they had remained Stationary, and then can Assault.

Borys

There is the minor point of the Batle Cannon not being a Heavy Weapon, but Ordnance. Won't this change your perspective on Bob?

No, because nothing in the rule requires him to be firing any particular type of weapon. He is allowed to assault 'after firing'

Not 'after firing Heavy Weapons'
Not 'after firing such weapons'
Just 'after firing'

He is a model who counts as stationary when firing Heavy Weapons.
Models who count as stationary when firing Heavy Weapons can assault after firing.
If he fires a Battle Cannon, he is firing.
He can therefore assault afterwards.

Borys- A very convincing reply, I believe.

Posted By insaniak on 04/29/2006 7:14 PM

There is the minor point of the Batle Cannon not being a Heavy Weapon, but Ordnance. Won't this change your perspective on Bob?

No, because nothing in the rule requires him to be firing any particular type of weapon. He is allowed to assault 'after firing'

Not 'after firing Heavy Weapons'
Not 'after firing such weapons'
Just 'after firing'

He is a model who counts as stationary when firing Heavy Weapons.
Models who count as stationary when firing Heavy Weapons can assault after firing.
If he fires a Battle Cannon, he is firing.
He can therefore assault afterwards.

In that case, if you carry a bolter and Melta or Flamer (ala Dakka) you can fire your melta twice in a round since "An infantry model aremed with a bolter can shoot twice at targets 12" away." Hey, a combi flamer would not allow you to fire your flamer and charge since "Models carrying rapid fire weapons that wish to charge into close combat in the Assault phase may not fire in the shooting phase-being constantly on the move....." Well half of a combi flamer is the botler, and you are carrying it. Of course if you read the context instead of just taking one pine and applying it to everything then it would actually work correctly.

Yes the rapid fire or heavy can charge after firing  line could be clearer but it is obvious it is applying to the prerequisite ability only, just like the rapid fire quote. It does not apply to all weapons.

I really hope there arent any chaos players reading this. The R.A.W. is ..well....pretty raw. Not the bit about termies assaulting, but defilers assaulting.

Now thats one thing that I hope gets addressed in a future FAQ.

Ah, thanks for pointing out the blatantly obvious, Insaniak. It actually is crystal clear now that you put the focus on the sentence "Such units can charge after firing."

So Termies and even The Defiler can charge after firing whatever the heck they want, including The Defiler's Battle Cannon.

Balanced - irrelevant
Intent - who can tell
Fluffy - who cares
Reasonable - considering the existance of demons...
RAW - absolutely

Can a defiler move and fire its battle cannon? (I have no idea)

If it can I don't think I would deny my opponent the ability to assault after firing it.

is a defiler considered a "walker"?
the BBB, pg.63(chart): walkers moving up to 6" can fire 2 defensive or 1 ord. weapons.

what is confusing to me is the "assaulting", after firing. the above mentioned
is refering to movement before firing.

Wait, can't walkers only charge what they fire at? Kind of dangerous to be shooting an ordinance weapon that close to your defiler.

"An infantry model aremed with a bolter can shoot twice at targets 12" away."

I belive that's an example of a rule rather than a rule in its own right.
It's found under 'Rapid Fire' is it not?

In that case, if you carry a bolter and Melta or Flamer (ala Dakka) you can fire your melta twice in a round since "An infantry model aremed with a bolter can shoot twice at targets 12" away." Hey, a combi flamer would not allow you to fire your flamer and charge since "Models carrying rapid fire weapons that wish to charge into close combat in the Assault phase may not fire in the shooting phase-being constantly on the move....."

The fact that the rules are stupid in no way changes how they are written...

Yes the rapid fire or heavy can charge after firing line could be clearer but it is obvious it is applying to the prerequisite ability only, just like the rapid fire quote. It does not apply to all weapons.

If it were that obvious, we wouldn't be arguing about it.

The line says what it says. However you choose to play it in game, the simple fact is that, as written, it does apply to all weapons.

Whether or not that was the intention, or is obviously supposed to work differently, is up to you.

So I can fire my Melta twice?


Snooggums analogy illustrates the issue pretty well.

If you have a Bolter and a Melta, then yes, by the rules as written, you can fire the melta twice.

What it actually should say is that a model firing a RF weapon can shoot twice. Since it doesn't, it's open slather.

Assuming you actually wanted to try that in a game... I know I wouldn't.

Actually, you can't.

They're clearly stated as two weapons, and as such, you must consult each weapon's specific stats in order to fire them

If you have a Combi-Melta, and choose to fire the meltagun, you must then consult the meltagun's stats (Which would be an assault 1, 12" str 8 ap 1).

If you fire the Boltgun, you then use the Boltgun's stats.

You do NOT fire the meltagun and benefit from rapidfire.

From my Black Templar codex: (Pg 27),
"Combi-weapons
This is a bolter joined together with another weapon. A Space Marine armed with a combi-weapon may choose which of the weapons he is going to use in the Shooting phase. The bolter may be fired any number of times, but the other weapon may only be fired once per battle. Note that you may not choose to fire both weapons at once."

The rulebook clearly differentiates between the two weapons, so you could not use rapid-fire with the combi-ed weapon. You would have to consult and use that weapon's specific stat line.

You do NOT fire the meltagun and benefit from rapidfire.

No, that's the way it should be. It is not, however, what the rules actually say.

Once again:

"An infantry model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can shoot twice at targets up to 12" away"

If a model has a bolter and a melta, are they armed with a Rapid Fire weapon?

It does not say that they can shoot twice with that weapon... merely that they can shoot twice if they are armed with such a weapon.

So, as long as the model is carrying a Rapid Fire weapon, by the RAW, they can fire twice with any weapon they are carrying.


Again, not the way I would play it... but it is what the rules actually say.

but it does say that you can't: "assault 1, 12" str 8 ap 1".
it's stat line only allows you to fire it twice.

insaniak, are you a lawyer? if i ever get into leagel trouble, i'm letting you argue on my behalf!
even if you aren't a lawyer!

Again, I point you towards the Combi-Weapon's description. It clearly differentiates that you must choose between the two weapons, and as such must use the entry pertinent to the weapon you chose.

If you just choose to just use the Rapid Fire rule from the rulebook, the argument is valid. However, you must use the Combi-weapon wargear entry in order to use the Combi-weapon, and it makes it clear you must differentiate between the two weapons and their statlines. Consider, for all purposes, a combi-weapon as two different weapons with the non-bolter weapon as having only a single use (Which the Combi-weapon wargear description, to me, clearly states). I can see how the Rapid Fire rule might cause a hangup on the issue, but to use a combi-weapon you must use its wargear description and that description differentiates between the two weapons, I cannot see how this argument could continue. 

The Combi-weapon rules makes it clear they are two different weapons.

Again, I point you towards the Combi-Weapon's description. It clearly differentiates that you must choose between the two weapons, and as such must use the entry pertinent to the weapon you chose.

It's got nothing to do with choosing between the two weapons.


A model with an Auspex is allowed to take a free shot at an enemy unit before the game starts. What do they shoot with... the Auspex?

The rules for one item can apply to a different item if they are written in such a manner as to not be specific to only that item.

The rule given in the RF entry is not written in such a way as to be specific to RF weapons. It simply allows a model armed with a RF weapon, when they shoot, to take 2 shots at 12". It does not specify that this shot can only be taken with RF weapons. You therefore treat this as a general upgrade for the model.

So, you choose to fire with the melta, which would generally mean that you fire with the stats of the melta. BUT, the model is 'a model that is armed with a Rapid Fire weapon' and so can therefore fire 2 shots at 12".

"A model with an Auspex is allowed to take a free shot at an enemy unit before the game starts. What do they shoot with... the Auspex? "

no it's a piece of wargear that allows the free shot. it doesn't have a stat line like a weapon would.

"The rule given in the RF entry is not written in such a way as to be specific to RF weapons. It simply allows a model armed with a RF weapon, when they shoot, to take 2 shots at 12". It does not specify that this shot can only be taken with RF weapons. You therefore treat this as a general upgrade for the model. So, you choose to fire with the melta, which would generally mean that you fire with the stats of the melta. BUT, the model is 'a model that is armed with a Rapid Fire weapon' and so can therefore fire 2 shots at 12".

 

" how can it fire twice, when it's stat line doesn't allow it. and given that reasoning, are you saying it can fire 24" also?

no it's a piece of wargear that allows the free shot. it doesn't have a stat line like a weapon would.

So?

If the rules for a RF weapon only apply to a RF weapon, despite not specifically referencing them alone, why would the rules for the Auspex not apply only to the Auspex? .

how can it fire twice, when it's stat line doesn't allow it.

How can a Chaplain with a Jump Pack move 12", when his entry doesn't allow it?

The model has an item that grants him a special rule. In the case of the Jump Pack, it is that a model equipped with a Jump Pack can move as Jump Infantry. You don't have to specify that he is using the Jump Pack.. he simply has that ability.

In the case of the Rapid Fire weapon, it is that a model armed with a Rapid Fire weapon can shoot twice at up to 12". So the same thing applies. The model has an ability to fire two shots at 12", because he is carrying a RF weapon.

and given that reasoning, are you saying it can fire 24" also?

Given the wording of the RF rules, yes, that would also apply.

Although you also suffer the consequences of having the RF weapon: Models carrying rapid fire weapons may not assault after firing.

So your model with a bolter and melta runs into a problem if they fire the melta and then want to assault... while the Assault weapon rules allow him to fire the melta and still assault, he still can not do so, as he is carrying a rapid fire weapon.

"how can it fire twice, when it's stat line doesn't allow it.

 

How can a Chaplain with a Jump Pack move 12", when his entry doesn't allow it? The model has an item that grants him a special rule. In the case of the Jump Pack, it is that a model equipped with a Jump Pack can move as Jump Infantry. You don't have to specify that he is using the Jump Pack.. he simply has that ability."

 

 the jump pack gives the movement ability, and the Auspex allows the ability to shoot. being a combiweapon doesn't allow it to shoot in a manor that it can't. a model carrying bolter and a powersword doesn't get to strike with the powersword twice within 12"!

 

okay, as annoyed as i get with GW and their inability on rules writing, doesn't common sense have to kick in at some point?

everybody feel free to tear me into little pieces for mentioning "common sense"!

and i'm serious about you being my lawyer insaniak!

okay, as annoyed as i get with GW and their inability on rules writing, doesn't common sense have to kick in at some point?

Of course it does. Hence my comment that I wouldn't actually play this way. But we were discussing what the book actually says, not how we would play it...