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Made in ca
Tough Tyrant Guard






I wont comment on the orks as I dont really know how they work but Nids I do know

I like lots of the options you proposed I like that they arent overpowered proposal and that you also considered nerfing a few things.

for the Shadow in the warp I dont know if it works well since if they cast on a psyker they already deny on a 5+ or even a 4+ if higher lvl, My proposal on this is that it makes casting spell if within SitW you get a -1 on harnessing warp charges(normally requiring a 5+ instead of a 4+)

for the Tyranofex the rupture cannon does not get solved by getting a cheaper price tag, lets put it this way, you need 3 Tyranofex upgraded with the rupture cannon all firing into a unit of space marine (or even sister of battle) to average making one casualty per turn. This is completely unacceptable comming from the codex's biggest gun.
my proposal on this is it should get ap3 (instead of ap4) and 3 shots (instead of 2) with a special chain reaction rule where if you hit with at least 2 shots those shot become ap1, potentially with a light point increase but frankly I think that 30pts and losing the acid spray is enough of a cost for this kind of gun.

Venomthropes are a bit weak in my mind compared to Malanthope, I Iitterally never consider them, Venomthropes always seem to just die so easilly.
I personally felt that the Venomthope should get a point decrease instead of increase (down to 40pts), with malanthropes increasing to 95pts (+10pts) and going down to 4+ArSv (instead of 3+)

Trygons holes should only allow one unit to come out of it per turn. more would seem a bit too much, although allowing it to work on same turn he came out is a must.

I dont know if Exocrines or Carnifexes require a point decrease, they seem pretty well pointed to me.
I wouldnt mind carnifexes going back to Str10 and maybe Ws4 though for a light cost.

maybe a 1pts decrease for the Genestealers.

I got a lot more but this is food for though





Made in ca
Tough Tyrant Guard






Sure, Venomthropes look bad compared to the Malanthrope, but that is because the Malantrope is too good for its points. Its hardier than a Prime with 4 wounds, and a host of special abilities equal to the Venomthropes. After the balance errata you'll see how much starting every game with either a 3+ or 2+(Ruines or Nightfight) really is. I mean Orks pay 40pts(formerly 50pts) just for a 6" 5++ bubble, a 6" Shrouding Bubble is better. Basically the Malanthrope is an undercosted Forgeworld unit that is currently outside the scope of this errata, of course the Venomthrope looked pricey compared to it.


even if not considering the Malanthrope in this errata (sad), the Venomthropes issue is that hes just standing arround waiting to be shot with his thumb up its bum (or... tentacles... insert graphic anime images here). The orks with the 5++ can at least stay in a unit which will be abblative wounds for LOS, yes shrounding is much stronger than a 5++ but not if it just dies before everything else and then nothing gets the shrouding. there is enough ignore cover weapons out there that have no issue taking out venomthropes which are just so frail if they have no cover. even if you take a unit of 3, a single volley by the nerfed Waveserpent is likely to wipe it out. and then the rest of your army is completely unprotected.
In all the games I've seen people use Venomthropes, they always die very fast (as long as the opponent has good targeting priorities) without causing the opponent any real issues. I dont see why it would need a point increase.

I agree that the malanthrope is too good, but I would want to balance it out between the 2 so I could actually have a choice to make between one and the other, and the Malanthrope is so popular for Nids you might want to consider it in the errata cause it does need a nerf and if you dont then people could consider playing it with your rule thus nullifying the effect of your balancing.

The Prime is a bad example as he has been massively nerfed from the previous codex (45pts increase with no upgrades at all) if anything in the codex needs a point decrease its the Prime. I cant imagine him why hes over 100pts, why would anyone even consider him over a flyrant? My recommendation for him is he goes down to 100pts (25pts decrease) and starts with Regeneration. it might seem like a big upgrade but this guy needs it if he wants to compete in the HQ slot for internal balance and I dont think that compared to other codex HQ Beatstick he would be OP. also he should be able to get Wings for 20pts (jump pack).

wasn't really trying to Fix the Rupture Cannon, but do see your problem with it. It probably should have AP3 or be Heavy 3. Firing at a 3+ infantry enemy is the wrong target to show its efficiency, its Long ranged S10, something that is a premium in the game. I don't think it should have both, and I would like to avoid adding any extra special rules if possible. I'll probably give it AP3 but it already has gotten a 20% decrease in cost to field it with Rupture Cannon.


I agree that the a 3+ infantry isnt the Rupture Cannon's prime target but what if your fighting space marine, nids or Eldar where that all he has on the board (you get a 200+pts which cant shoot or fight in close combat), even if you are fighting againsts what the rupture cannon is suppose to be good against (high AV vehicule) how efficient is it really? lets see, 2 shots at Bs3 means 1 hit, 1 hit on let say AV14 mean a 0.5 HP if no cover, Invul or Jinking, and due to new damage chart even if it is a pen, it cant possibly kill it, you need an average of 8 rupture cannon Tyranofexs to kill a single Landraider in the open (1600pts of dedicated anti-heavy tank to kill a single land raider?).
So what is the gun for? not heavy vehicules, not MC since they also have 3+ArSv or better, not heavy infantry, certainly not light infantry, maybe open topped skimmer? no cause they jink.
It litterally has no target you can be happy about shooting, like I said the issue with the gun isnt the points, its the effectiveness on the board which at the moment is null due to the expensive platform that is carrying it.
My proposal turns the gun into a something that can actually harm stuff, still far from being destroyer though so isnt op, yet fluffy with the chain reaction ability which, with some good luck, could actually kill a Landraider in one volley, as many other guns in the warhammer universe can do.
If you want to avoid inventing rules (your SitW..cough cough) maybe just make the shots destroyer and call it a day.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/21 15:00:17


 
Made in ca
Tough Tyrant Guard






So, we're looking at 50 vs 45pts for a 6" Shouding Bubble. Yes the Venomthrope dies quickly, but of course it is going to be a high priority target, the durability it brings a 14" Diameter Circle is huge, if an opponent ignores it their ability to hurt anything in the defensive bubble is pretty much nill. Even if it only protects for a single turn, or forces a large amount of the opponent's army to focus on it for a turn it is bringing a significant level of value to the list. And not all opponents have easy access to Ignore's Cover. Sure a Wave Serpent, a fairly pricey unit, can blow it's one use ability to neuter kill the Venomthrope, but that is a significant investment on their part. It takes on average just over 7 shots(average number) from a Serpent Shield to take out the Venomthrope, that means its fairly even odds that it will kill it or it won't, and that Eldar Player had to also maneuver their Transport into 24" of a particular target with 50/50 odds of killing it. For a 50 pt model, that is already haveing a solid effect on the game, and we are talking about one of the best counters for the Venomthrope. What is the Average SM player doing against it? Dark Eldar Player? etc. Ridiculous Ignore's Cover is less prevalent than it used to be, sure some armies have a counter, and even if they do it requires an investment in resources to accomplish. At 40pts as you suggest it is a must have, at 50 you have decisions to make. 45pts, the Shrouded abiltity was pretty much a must have. Must haves do not reflect good internal or external balance.



Im not sure your math is correct, wouldn't 5 serpent shield shot still average a kill? even if the wave serpent doesnt have Bs5 (aspect host/ Dire avenger formation),
5 shots average 3.333 hits on Bs4, 3.33 hits average 2.77wounds, then a 5+ ArSv mean a Venomthrope should die from this, and this isnt considering the extra TL gun and potential shuriken cannon the Wave serpent shoots. it certainly is a much better then 50% chance for a waveserpent to kill a venomthrope.

space marine players have thunderfire cannon that ignore cover, or flamers, tau have markerlights and SMS etc.
or you can just rate of fire it, most of the time it wont have a ruin to hide behind so they are looking at a 3+ cover which makes them as tough to kill as 2 space marines (which isnt that hard to kill). or a sinlge Str8+ shot to go through which is surprising how often I see that happen.
a 2+ is difficult to keep since the nids army isnt meant to stay behind cover and shoot, even if there are Ruins, the low range on most of their weapons means that you need to move forward, also to take advantage of their CC skills.
When moving forward you can still get a 3+ cover from itervening models but the opponent can also just shoot the guys in front who will only have a 5+ cover and then reache the shrouders afterwards.

You are saying the opponent need to dedicate a lot of firepower to take out the venomthrope but my experience taught me that if want some cover, you need lots of venomthropes to last more then one turn. A single venomthrope tends to not take any more than 1/5 of the opponents firepower (even with no ignore cover weapons) and then the rest shoots your army, basicly it barely harm the opponent unless he isnt a shooty army at all or the opponent is a terrible judge of priority.

I wouldnt really consider a venomthrope at 50pts, even 45pts is a big maybe, (at least not for a TAC list... even if the Malanthrope wasnt an option). maybe if I took a Bastion but even then...not really. its just so frail.

as a question, how many games have you seen a venomthrope play in where the players are experienced?


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/21 22:31:58


 
Made in ca
Tough Tyrant Guard






well, when the Nid codex came out, psyker tests where taken on a Ld test, and a -3 to that is pretty huge actually, making it very hard for any psykers to cast spells if within SitW, so the rule WAS a very powerfull one, since Ld doesnt affect non-peril spells it got a massive reduction in affect.

My idea of getting back to a similar effect would be -1 to warp charge harnessing rolls if withing SitW AND a -2 to Ld on psykers on top, now, that is maybe a bit too strong, but it would be an equivalent effect I believe (I didnt do the math tho).

I wouldnt mind a global -1 to ld (all non-nids units) if a SitW unit is still on the board and a +1 to denying the witch roll for nids if the spell of a non-Nids psyker is cast within Synapse

this would be more fluffy as it would be something that affects everyone on the board while especially affecting Psykers (as the fluff says).
It certainly is stronger than the current SitW but I don't think it would be stronger than pre-6th edition SitW.
Made in ca
Tough Tyrant Guard






The Scything talon only getting ap6 as a rule is quite poor.
I really liked the old: one set gives Re-roll "1" in CC tohit, and Two sets gives Reroll all failed tohit rolls in CC.
I realise it would increase the general power of Nids but not by that much.
 
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