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Per the writeup of the abili8ty in the book, it simply says:

Enemy units locked in combat with a model that has this special rule subtract 2 from their leadership.

If, then, 2 models with this special rule were locked in combat with a unit, that unit would be under the effect of this rule twice, right?

If that's the case, Jain Zar in a unit of Banshees with an exarch applies a -4 penalty to opposing units leadership values. Since most of the negative effects that can be applied to a unit based on leadership tests require that the unit be shot at, or otherwise be a legal target for shooting(such as psychic shriek), it limits the utility of this sort of penalty, but I'm sure there are some leadership shenanigans to be had from it.

Intent seems to be -2 regardless of number. If Jain Zar's stacks with the Banshees, wouldn't the Banshees stack with each other?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Intent seems to be -2 regardless of number. If Jain Zar's stacks with the Banshees, wouldn't the Banshees stack with each other?

No it isn't that simple as only the banshee exarch gets the war shout rule, not the entire squad.

Only the Exarch and Jain Zar have it.

The answer is no, they do not stack.

War Shout:
Enemy units locked in combat with a model that has this special rule subtracts 2 from their Leadership.

Special rules with the same name never stack with each other unless they say they do.

 Mulletdude wrote:
The answer is no, they do not stack.

War Shout:
Enemy units locked in combat with a model that has this special rule subtracts 2 from their Leadership.

Special rules with the same name never stack with each other unless they say they do.

Can you provide a page number for that please in the BRB?

No matter how many times the rule is in place, the rule results in a single -2. Same as having one or one hundred waaaaagh banners gives you the same weapons skill bonus.

How is this any different to freakish spectacle from the DE coven book with multiple detachments affecting a single unit?

Where is the reference that says you can only be affected by a rule once?

No such rule exists, to my knowledge.

There's one that says that no model may gain the benefit of a special rule of the same name more than once, but that isn't happening in this case.

Thanks for the tip, rofl, I hadn't realized it was Exarch-specific. In that case, I think they do stack. The power is indeed the same name, but no model is gaining a benefit twice. (Some are gaining a penalty twice, just like when Freakish Spectacles overlap, but that's completely legal.)

 Massaen wrote:
How is this any different to freakish spectacle from the DE coven book with multiple detachments affecting a single unit?

Where is the reference that says you can only be affected by a rule once?

There isn't a general rule. The rule in question here DOES prevent it

Are you locked in combat with A model? Yes? Then you are at -2.

If you are locked with 50 or 100 models this is still true, but not tru 50 times. You invoke the rule once, and are at -2.

Except...

War Shout:
Enemy units locked in combat with a model that has this special rule subtracts 2 from their Leadership.


So, boolean. If you are locked in combat with a unit, and a model in that unit has the War Shout special rule, then are you locked in combat with a model that has this special rule? If you're locked in combat with TWO models with this special rule, are you locked in combat with A model that has this special rule?

Fundamentally, the rule itself is saying that it can only be applied once.



Before I posted this, nosferatu1001 put up the same reasoning.

Ah, I think I see what you mean now. Ok, I agree that it can't stack like DE freakish spectacle

 Massaen wrote:
Ah, I think I see what you mean now. Ok, I agree that it can't stack like DE freakish spectacle

Eh, sure, why not.

I don't really see that limitation. It could also be read to apply thusly:

Model A has that special rule. Are you locked in combat with them? Yes = -2 leadership.
Model B has that special rule. Are you locked in combat with them? Yes = -2 leadership.

It's no different from the leadership penalty derived from freakish spectacle, which is worded thusly:

Comparison wrote:
If you're within 6 inches of a unit with this special rule, you suffer a -1 penalty to leadership.
compared to:
If you're locked in combat with a model with this special rule, you suffer a -2 penalty to leadership.

What's the difference? Both stack, as they are each an effect coming from a different source, we have permission to USE the special rules, and no rule preventing a unit from being effected by more than one of the same ability/special rule. This is not at all worded like other abilities that specifically say you can only be effected once. If it were, it would be worded as: "If a unit is locked in combat with one or more model's that have this special rule, they subtract 2 from their leadership."

That isn't what it says.

In order for it to work as you say, it would need to be worded as follows:

Enemy units locked in combat with a model that has this special rule subtracts 2 from their Leadership for each model with this special rule.

As worded, the rule doesn't care how many models you are locked in combat with that has this special rule. Be it one model or a hundred, you're locked in combat with "... a model that has this special rule..." and only subtract two from your Leadership.

Betray - and freakish doesnt stack either.

Are you 6" away from "a" unit? Yes. "a" refers to 1 or more units.

Freakish does stack provided the application comes from different detachments.

Freakish Spectacle - Enemy units within 12"of one or more models from this detachment suffer a -1 penalty to their leadership value.

Thus if I run a corpse thief claw, a scalpel squadron and a grotesquery and manage to get a model from each one within 12"of an enemy model they will take a -3 total LD penalty as they are being affected by 3 detachments.

Hmm, Betray had entirely different wording - "If you're within 6 inches of a unit with this special rule, you suffer a -1 penalty to leadership" vs your wording of "Enemy units within 12"of one or more models from this detachment suffer a -1 penalty to their leadership value"

Indeed, with the latter wording it would stack.

It does not alter that the War SHout language of "a" is pretty clear in NOT stacking.

Mine is word for word from the codex.

I agree given the way war shout is written it can't stack

Given Betrays seeming bias on this, I wasnt really questionnig your integrity, just noting the discrepancy for others to pick up on.

It seems betray isnt arguing honestly here.

Yeah wording of "if condition X of A unit then" this is preventative of stacking. You have a true false statement. If the state is true for 1 instance or 1000 instances it is still true so you get the effect once.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Given Betrays seeming bias on this, I wasnt really questionnig your integrity, just noting the discrepancy for others to pick up on.

It seems betray isnt arguing honestly here.

It has nothing to do with honesty. I was quoting from memory and forgot the part about "this detachment" being what caused them to be able to stack.

That being the case, I'd still say that it's not 100% clear that a unit can't be effected by more than one model, based on the wording.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
That being the case, I'd still say that it's not 100% clear that a unit can't be effected by more than one model, based on the wording.

It can be affected by more than one model... it just makes no difference to the actual effect.

For what it's worth, in every similarly-worded situation in the last 20 years, where GW have issued a clarification they have consistently gone with 'doesn't stack'.

As was pointed out earlier, you're trying to read 'a model' as 'each model'. It doesn't work that way.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Given Betrays seeming bias on this, I wasnt really questionnig your integrity, just noting the discrepancy for others to pick up on.

It seems betray isnt arguing honestly here.

It has nothing to do with honesty. I was quoting from memory and forgot the part about "this detachment" being what caused them to be able to stack.

That being the case, I'd still say that it's not 100% clear that a unit can't be effected by more than one model, based on the wording.

Your memory was of an entirely different rule wording, making it useless unfortunately. You also didnt say you were going off memory, that would have helped

It is absolutely clear. Are you in range of "A" model? Yes? Then you get the affect. Whether "A" is 1 or 100, it is still described as "A" model and so you only ever resolve the effect once.

to answer the OP : the war shout doesn't stack but the 2x 1D3 run bonus sure does!

ConanMan wrote:
to answer the OP : the war shout doesn't stack but the 2x 1D3 run bonus sure does!

It isn't a d3 bonus, each of them is just a fixed 3" bonus. So jain zar with banshees in a warhost auto run 12".

roflmajog wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
to answer the OP : the war shout doesn't stack but the 2x 1D3 run bonus sure does!

It isn't a d3 bonus, each of them is just a fixed 3" bonus. So jain zar with banshees in a warhost auto run 12".

Yeah, unfortunately, their shooting isn't scary and their T3 armor saves aren't that good, so without being able to charge after running, it doesn't really do them much good. Would be amazing if they could somehow get the run+charge ability of Harlies on top of that.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

roflmajog wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
to answer the OP : the war shout doesn't stack but the 2x 1D3 run bonus sure does!

It isn't a d3 bonus, each of them is just a fixed 3" bonus. So jain zar with banshees in a warhost auto run 12".

Yeah, unfortunately, their shooting isn't scary and their T3 armor saves aren't that good, so without being able to charge after running, it doesn't really do them much good. Would be amazing if they could somehow get the run+charge ability of Harlies on top of that.

It is still good for getting into a position to charge the next turn or to get a needed objective.
Also they could be worse at shooting, they can regularly take out 4 MEQ with shooting at 12" range which they should be within if they are wanting to charge next turn.

roflmajog wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

roflmajog wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
to answer the OP : the war shout doesn't stack but the 2x 1D3 run bonus sure does!

It isn't a d3 bonus, each of them is just a fixed 3" bonus. So jain zar with banshees in a warhost auto run 12".

Yeah, unfortunately, their shooting isn't scary and their T3 armor saves aren't that good, so without being able to charge after running, it doesn't really do them much good. Would be amazing if they could somehow get the run+charge ability of Harlies on top of that.

It is still good for getting into a position to charge the next turn or to get a needed objective.
Also they could be worse at shooting, they can regularly take out 4 MEQ with shooting at 12" range which they should be within if they are wanting to charge next turn.

The problem is, those shooting results are with Jain Zar, who is likely responsible for 3/4 of those kills, and if they're in a position to be ABLE to shoot at 12", then they are likely able to be shot AT, and they're not terribly good at surviving being shot at. They're also worth dumping fire into, because with Jain + Exarch, that unit is expensive.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

roflmajog wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

roflmajog wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
to answer the OP : the war shout doesn't stack but the 2x 1D3 run bonus sure does!

It isn't a d3 bonus, each of them is just a fixed 3" bonus. So jain zar with banshees in a warhost auto run 12".

Yeah, unfortunately, their shooting isn't scary and their T3 armor saves aren't that good, so without being able to charge after running, it doesn't really do them much good. Would be amazing if they could somehow get the run+charge ability of Harlies on top of that.

It is still good for getting into a position to charge the next turn or to get a needed objective.
Also they could be worse at shooting, they can regularly take out 4 MEQ with shooting at 12" range which they should be within if they are wanting to charge next turn.

The problem is, those shooting results are with Jain Zar, who is likely responsible for 3/4 of those kills, and if they're in a position to be ABLE to shoot at 12", then they are likely able to be shot AT, and they're not terribly good at surviving being shot at. They're also worth dumping fire into, because with Jain + Exarch, that unit is expensive.

They would be pouring quite a few shots into the squad then because with jain at the front taking armour saves and banshees jumping in to take cover saves on any AP2 (its not worth a 350 pt unit being out of cover to kill 4 MEQ) they are quite durable. I would be fine with that if the rest of my army isn't getting shot.
Also Jain is only doing 2 wounds with her S4 against T4 with 4 shots.
Although I do think Jain works better with a scorpion squad with a claw exarch, pretty much forces them to deny any challenge or die and scorpions do survive better than banshees.
TBH I would probably never use Jain in a banshee squad unless playing her in a fluffy game where it doesn't matter so much, I'm just saying what they can do.