Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is there a compelling reason to NOT take Sea Guard over regular Archers or Spearmen? Seems like if I'm gonna have a big block of infantry, then this is the unit to have.

This is something that has been discussed a lot and, whilst other people will tell you differently, Sea Guard are a sub-par unit and will never be as effective as an equivalent amount of points in archers or spearmen.

The reason being is that Sea Guard can't fill both roles effectively. If they could move and shoot without penalty, march and shoot, or had an additional benefit in combat over Spearmen, then maybe they'd be alright, but they have no such bonus.

If Sea Guard try and move up and kill stuff in combat, they're going to be firing at -1 (on top of long range etc) and will be unable to volley fire. With single-shot strength 3 weapons with no other special rules, this won't be very effective. Then, once they hit combat, they do exactly the same amount of damage that Spearmen will do, only they pay more to do it. A unit of Spearmen of equivalent points value will have more models which translates into better combat prowess due to more attacks, more ablative wounds, more ranks and a better chance of steadfast. These benefits outweigh the few casualties the Sea Guard will get from shooting and hence an equivalent points value of Spearmen will always be more effective.

And if the Sea Guard stand back and shoot, they won't be as effective as archers because they have 6" less range and pay more points for each model. Then, if they do get into combat, the only advantage they have over archers is one more rank of attacks which, again, is mitigated by the fact they have to pay more for each model. Also, if you're getting to the point where spears are being used, that means you've got four ranks, which means you have to volley fire which means you have models that aren't actually firing their bow, which again, means you pay a lot more for each shot. And, should the Sea Guard be called on to move - which is often necessary - they can't volley fire and waste yet more shots. An equivalent points value in archers will be more effective, especially so if you split them into units of no more than 3 ranks (this also has the added bonus of being able to split fire).

Whilst some people like Sea Guard and choose to use them, I believe above demonstrates why, exactly, they're not an optimal unit choice. Both Spearmen and Archers will always be more effective point for point. If you want a mix of combat and shooting in your Core choices, then take a unit of Spearmen and a unit of Archers.

Always thought seaguard are a better bet for smaller games, not used them much but think the trick is to think of them as archers or spears, and not try to use them as both - they just become a swing unit you can use according to the enemy and the situation.

Possibly useful either in a game small enough you can have both spears and archers, or in a game where you already have some of each and a unit that could work with either is useful.

Not so much points efficient when you consider the cost of an archer or spearman, but in a way you are buying a sub-par archer and spearman, just without the flexibility to do both on the same turn.

Hmmmm. I was thinking i could take a unit of 4/5 ranks, go magic heavy, and sit back and shoot/spell. When the enemy closes to shut down the blastyness then I could charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was also thinking I could get the High Elf bits out of two Island of Blood boxes and turn that into a kick-ass army.

I'm gonna make a High Elf army list, then do a "cost to buy" analysis between my perspective High Elf army and my perspective Bret all-cavalry army.

I'll probably end up going with the one that's cheapest.

It should be pointed out that they of course can use their bows and spears at the same time - as in they can stand and shoot. This I think gives them the edge over spearmen as defensive troops, especially against rank and file enemy. You're not going to kill a whole bunch standing and shooting, but it may be enough to knock a point of rank bonus off.

phydaux wrote:Hmmmm. I was thinking i could take a unit of 4/5 ranks, go magic heavy, and sit back and shoot/spell. When the enemy closes to shut down the blastyness then I could charge.

You could do EXACTLY the same with Archers and much more effectively. You don't even get to use your spears on the charge, so Archers will have exactly the same damage output as Sea Guard and, of course, will do it for cheaper and will have started firing 6" sooner.

phydaux wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was also thinking I could get the High Elf bits out of two Island of Blood boxes and turn that into a kick-ass army.

I'm gonna make a High Elf army list, then do a "cost to buy" analysis between my perspective High Elf army and my perspective Bret all-cavalry army.

I'll probably end up going with the one that's cheapest.

Yeah, the Island of Blood Sea Guard are monetarily cheap models to get your hands on, and nice ones as that. But there's no reason you have to use them as Sea Guard. They pass off perfectly well as Spearmen, and I use a big block of IoB Sea Guard models as Spearmen in most of my HE games.

Aben Zin wrote:It should be pointed out that they of course can use their bows and spears at the same time - as in they can stand and shoot. This I think gives them the edge over spearmen as defensive troops, especially against rank and file enemy.

Not really, since Spearmen have the added benefit of being cheaper which, in a unit of equivalent cost, means more attacks in combat or more ablative wounds. Furthermore, these extra Spearmen will not be attacking at -1 to hit (like the Sea Guard will be when standing and shooting) and the extra bodies will ALWAYS come in useful, whereas you don't always get to stand and shoot.

Ah, the eternal question for High Elf generals

When I started playing High Elves, I went Sea Guard. There is a lot to like - they can both shoot and fight, with shields have a 5+ save, fighting in extra ranks helps both shooting and spear work...

These days, I use straight Archers instead, and I think maybe the High Elves benefit from unit specialisation in the same way as Eldar do in 40k.

The thinking is this; Archers have an extra 6" range and, with careful positioning, that can give you an extra turn's worth of firing. It also means you outrange everyone who does not have a Longbow, if the enemy is cheeky enough to try and outshoot you. Above all, they are cheaper which means more arrows being sent towards the enemy - and if you can destroy the enemy before he reaches you, well, you don't need spears!

There is no right answer to this. Both Archers and Sea Guard have their plus points. Spearmen... more difficult to argue and I would probably advocate Sea Guard over them. However, Sea Guard are not such a good replacement for dedicated Archers.

That said, if you go Archer heavy, you will need something solid in close combat to back them up and fend off anything that makes it through the hail of missiles. That might be Spearmen (or Sea Guard, if you want a lot of arrows going out!), but I would be looking more to the Specials for that, be it Dragon Knights or Swordmasters (my two current favourites).

Overall... you can't really go wrong either way and both approaches certainly work. Probably the best thing I can say is that I use dedicated Archers now but used to be heavy on Sea Guard, and have had a lot of success with both.

I am not a elf player so take my 2 cents as such.

Sea guard, are not the best of both worlds, but a good comprimize between the other 2

Spearmen have the bennefit of getting an extra rank to attack with for a slightly cheaper price.

Archers are cheaper but have no extra rules, is there BS skill better?


I think you'll find pros and cons both ways for fielding seaguard vs fielding spearmen and archers

Rune has the right of it. There's compromises with all three units.

Take archers ? Great! They are the best of all three at shooting and are nice and cheap, but have a lower armor save, and are abysmal in melee (if it comes to that).

Take spearmen ? Great ! They are cheap, can have a better armor save, but no ranged attack.

Take Seaguard ? Great ! They are just like spearmen in melee potential, and can shoot (though a tiny bit less range than archers), but they're pricey.


Basically if you're looking for a mix of shooting and melee and have the points, do spearmen and archers seperately, however if you need / want a unit that does both, or you to cover a little melee and shooting bases to round out your army and have some extra core points left, but not enough to justify an entirely new worthwhile sized unit, go seaguard.



It comes down to what you want. I'm a seaguard guy myself, but frankly, with Host of the Eternity King I haven't used a whole hell of a lot of high elf core in a month or so.