Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

so yeah bs5 waveserpents?

Premise 1 : "All units in this formation add 1 to the chosen characteristic" - codex: craftworld eldar
Premise 2 : Dedicated transports count as units for the purposes of other rules. Example/ First Blood
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: bs5 waveserpents?!?!?!?!?!?!?


I would like to be proved wrong on this. But if you can prove me wrong in a well structured (valid & sound) argument that is really the only way I will take your proof seriously.

go

We've argued this at my local store, and ended up all agreeing that the wording of the rules means wave serpents taken like this are BS5

Just for funnies...

Vehicles count as WS1 when they've moved in the previous turn, and WS0 when stationary. If the Aspect Host chose to buff their WS, would that mean their regular vehicles would be WS2 if they moved, and WS1 even if they didn't?

 Yarium wrote:
Just for funnies...

Vehicles count as WS1 when they've moved in the previous turn, and WS0 when stationary. If the Aspect Host chose to buff their WS, would that mean their regular vehicles would be WS2 if they moved, and WS1 even if they didn't?

lol I feel like it wouldn't but I don't know exactly why. Maybe counts as WS0 doesn't really allow room for modifiers. Maybe because it has no WS on it's profile?

Wave-Serpent-Fu is strong in these pilots...

The good thing about this rule is (BS5 vs BS4) you are actually twice as less likely to miss, odd grammar but true.

One point of a die at the extreme end is a probability doubling effect. Same with 2+ sv vs 3+ save.. they look similat bu actually the 2+ is twice as good

 Yarium wrote:
Just for funnies...

Vehicles count as WS1 when they've moved in the previous turn, and WS0 when stationary. If the Aspect Host chose to buff their WS, would that mean their regular vehicles would be WS2 if they moved, and WS1 even if they didn't?

Not quite, they are WS1 unless they are immobilised or a walker. I'd say an immobilised vehicle would not get the buff, as they are always counted as being WS0. For normal vehicles I would lean towards them still being WS1 as the wording seems to be a set value, so using the multiple modifiers rule, it would still be 1, but I'm not completely sure

 Yarium wrote:
Just for funnies...

Vehicles count as WS1 when they've moved in the previous turn, and WS0 when stationary. If the Aspect Host chose to buff their WS, would that mean their regular vehicles would be WS2 if they moved, and WS1 even if they didn't?

No, because vehicles (except for Walkers and Chariots) don't have a WS characteristic to increase. Even if they did, the 'Multiple Modifiers' rule would come into play and set them at WS1/WS0 respectively.

The rules say "all vehicles are treated as being weapon skill 1. The exceptions are walkers and chariots, which have varying weapon skills, and immobilised non walker vehicles which are always treated as having weapon skill 0."
I would say you are going to be WS2 at the start of the game but when you get immobilised you go down to WS0.
And I would say yes you do get the BS/WS increase.

All units in this Formation add 1 to the chosen characteristic.

How are you adding to a characteristic you don't have? In an assault, the vehicle is treated as being Weapon Skill 1. Not only is this the only time you would be treated as having a Weapon Skill characteristic, it sets that characteristic at 1 and it remains there per the 'Multiple Modifiers' rule. Rites of Battle provides no benefit to a vehicle unless it is a Walker or a Chariot if you choose to take the Weapon Skill bonus.

 Ghaz wrote:

All units in this Formation add 1 to the chosen characteristic.

How are you adding to a characteristic you don't have? In an assault, the vehicle is treated as being Weapon Skill 1. Not only is this the only time you would be treated as having a Weapon Skill characteristic, it sets that characteristic at 1 and it remains there per the 'Multiple Modifiers' rule. Rites of Battle provides no benefit to a vehicle unless it is a Walker or a Chariot if you choose to take the Weapon Skill bonus.

The rules say that vehicles count as being ws1, they do not say In an assault vehicles count as being ws1, this would indicate that they are ws1 at the start of the game (so you can upgrade it) and they all have a ws, it just isn't shown on their profiles as they follow different rules to normal models.

Eh, I can see the argument for BS5 serpents, but I feel that, since Wave Serpents are not included in the little box where all the units available to the formation are listed, they shouldn't receive the benefits, even though the units available can take them as Dedicated Transports and technically they then count as the same unit.

I don't really want Serpents to be boosted to BS5 anyway, nor do I think they need to be, and nor do I think this is RAI.

roflmajog wrote:
The rules say that vehicles count as being ws1, they do not say In an assault vehicles count as being ws1, this would indicate that they are ws1 at the start of the game (so you can upgrade it) and they all have a ws, it just isn't shown on their profiles as they follow different rules to normal models.

And what section of the rules say that they're Weapons Skill 1? The section titled 'Vehicles in the Assault Phase'. Your claims that its not shown on its profile because they follow different rules has no basis. They could have easily given the model a Weapon Skill characteristic in its stat line and noted if it was immobilized it was Weapon Skill 0 yet they decided not to.

The rules are clear. A vehicle other than a Walker or Chariot only has a Weapon Skill characteristic in the Assault phase.

The wave serpents have no weapon skill and never get one. Even in an assault. Models hit them and roll to hit as if they were fighting a model with weapon skill 1. That is not the same as rolling to hit against the models weapon skill. And so the +1 modifier to weapon skills is completely lost.

@the shadow. The fact that waveserpents are not in the little box is a great way to start your argument. If you could say why (with rule refs, please no more rai talk because I agree already that it most likely wasn't rai) that transports/ units not included in the formation unit list's box but still able to be taken as part of the same detachment don't benefit from the formation rules you could really finish it off.

 Ghaz wrote:

roflmajog wrote:
The rules say that vehicles count as being ws1, they do not say In an assault vehicles count as being ws1, this would indicate that they are ws1 at the start of the game (so you can upgrade it) and they all have a ws, it just isn't shown on their profiles as they follow different rules to normal models.

And what section of the rules say that they're Weapons Skill 1? The section titled 'Vehicles in the Assault Phase'. Your claims that its not shown on its profile because they follow different rules has no basis. They could have easily given the model a Weapon Skill characteristic in its stat line and noted if it was immobilized it was Weapon Skill 0 yet they decided not to.

The rules are clear. A vehicle other than a Walker or Chariot only has a Weapon Skill characteristic in the Assault phase.

The title of the section that it is in doesn't change the wording of the actual rule though, so has no bearing on the argument.

as the models have no actual WS on their profile, the WS value given during the assault phase must be a set modifier. As they are going from no value, to a set value.

as set modifiers go last when determining multiple modifiers, giving +1 ws would have no effect because it would still be set at WS1/WS0 respectively.

However the BS would be modifier, as they are an unit from that formation. Just like if you buy a drop pod for a tac squad from a CAD it has objective secured also.