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Hi guys. This is my 1st post on dakka dakka so bare with me ) last game I played was 5th edition and a lot has changed.

Here is my question. Im using the Khorne deamonkin codex.
 Can a unit of bloodletters inside a Land Raider use their banner of blood to serve as a beacon for deep striking units?
 The rule in the codex says that a friendly unit can be placed 'at least 6" away from a model with a banner of blood'.
Obviously the actual model is 'not on the table' since it's inside the LR.
Can't see anything about banners and icons in the main rulebook. 
Any help would be really appreciated and if pointed to where I should look for the wording would be really nice.

Actually it is a good Question. I am also using Inquisition and frequently field a mystic to avoid deep strike to scatter.

The rules state that the mystic must be on the battle field at the beginning of the turn when using his capacity and the deep strike must land up to 6" away from him.

How ever, it does not say if he can be embarked in a transport.

My local shop rule is such as he must be out of the land raider, but Dakka feedbacks would be interesting.

If it's an aura effect, it works from the transport (you measure from transport's hull). If it isn't, you can't use inside it.

I would say that, in that the rule specifically states "a model with the banner of blood", that would mean you don't get the effect if the model is in a transport - the transport doesn't have the banner, and so can't use it's effect. The model with the banner isn't on the table, even if thematically it is "inside" the transport.

There is precedent for this with other banners, like the Dark Angels banner of devastation. A command squad embarked in a crusader doesn't get to make it's hurricane bolters salvo until they disembark.

 Jambles wrote:
There is precedent for this with other banners, like the Dark Angels banner of devastation. A command squad embarked in a crusader doesn't get to make it's hurricane bolters salvo until they disembark.

Actually, it's an incredibly common tactic for DA. The actual rule, as mentioned by Vector Strike is found in the Transports section, under Embarking:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

We require to measure to a model with an "aura" effect, therefore we measure to the vehicle's hull instead.

For some proof, there are items which specifically and explicitly do not work inside vehicles (Ork Kustom Force Field and post-FAQ Dark Angels Power Field Generator). Since these items have additional wording which changes how they work inside vehicles, the default position must be that other items don't change, and simply work with the rule presented above.

 Jambles wrote:
I would say that, in that the rule specifically states "a model with the banner of blood", that would mean you don't get the effect if the model is in a transport - the transport doesn't have the banner, and so can't use it's effect. The model with the banner isn't on the table, even if thematically it is "inside" the transport.

There is precedent for this with other banners, like the Dark Angels banner of devastation. A command squad embarked in a crusader doesn't get to make it's hurricane bolters salvo until they disembark.

The rulebook disagrees with you. Please see 'Embarking' in the rules for Transports in the main rulebook.

that rule doesn't actually give permission to use items in transports.

It only tells us how to resolve measuring to/from an embarked unit "If you need to"

its an RAI that this means you can measure to an embarked unit for any purpose, but it is not explicitly stated that you can measure to/from an embarked unit for whatever reason.

of course it is also RAI that this does not mean you can measure to an embarked unit for any purpose.

it also means SMS and impaler cannons can target and kill embarked models if you take the first as being true along with any effect that does not require LoS for targeting.

 Quanar wrote:

 Jambles wrote:
There is precedent for this with other banners, like the Dark Angels banner of devastation. A command squad embarked in a crusader doesn't get to make it's hurricane bolters salvo until they disembark.

Actually, it's an incredibly common tactic for DA. The actual rule, as mentioned by Vector Strike is found in the Transports section, under Embarking:

If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle’s hull.

We require to measure to a model with an "aura" effect, therefore we measure to the vehicle's hull instead.

For some proof, there are items which specifically and explicitly do not work inside vehicles (Ork Kustom Force Field and post-FAQ Dark Angels Power Field Generator). Since these items have additional wording which changes how they work inside vehicles, the default position must be that other items don't change, and simply work with the rule presented above.

That seems cut and dry, fair enough - I should have remembered the rules for KFFs and such, that's a pretty clear indicator.

blaktoof wrote:
that rule doesn't actually give permission to use items in transports.

So would you say you need specific permission to use an Ork Kustom Force Field inside a vehicle? That item gives an invulnerable save to models in a radius, except when it is embarked, in which case it gives the vehicle an invulnerable save (paraphrasing the rules). Does it not work at all according to you, or is it a specific exception from it's wording? It also renders the DA Power Field Generator errata completely pointless, as all that was added is a line saying the item doesn't work when embarked.

blaktoof wrote:
It only tells us how to resolve measuring to/from an embarked unit "If you need to"

its an RAI that this means you can measure to an embarked unit for any purpose, but it is not explicitly stated that you can measure to/from an embarked unit for whatever reason.

of course it is also RAI that this does not mean you can measure to an embarked unit for any purpose.

it also means SMS and impaler cannons can target and kill embarked models if you take the first as being true along with any effect that does not require LoS for targeting.

It is true that the rule should logically include "(except for it's shooting or when being shot at)" instead of "(except for it's shooting)", and the fact that it does not does leave a loophole in the rules for weapons that ignore LoS.

However, if that rule is not for the purposes of determining whether or not another unit is in range of an effect (such as auras, or abilities such as Astra Militarium orders, which can be issued from within Chimera), then what is it for? Can you give me an example?

As an aside, effects that require the model to be "on the board" such as Teleport Homers are an obvious grey area even assuming my interpretation is correct.

if you go with the interpretation that you need permission to use items inside vehicles, then the KFF has explicit permission to be used but the restriction that it only affects the vehicle.

The rule could be there for rules that explicitly let you use an item while embarked, or on models that are embarked. At the time the BRB was printed there were rules in it that did not have an affect, albeit few, until certain codexes were printed.

it could also be there in the intent that someone can shoot 6 squads of 3 hiveguard at the models inside a landraider who are holding a banner that is letting models outside of the landraider fire more bolter shots because they are so inspired by the thing they cannot see as it is not on the board

blaktoof wrote:
... as it is not on the board...

You've made a leap of logic here. At what point, in the framework of the rules, are we told that models in a transport are removed from play or are not on the board?

 DJGietzen wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
... as it is not on the board...

You've made a leap of logic here. At what point, in the framework of the rules, are we told that models in a transport are removed from play or are not on the board?

Don't the rules for embarking say to remove the unit from the board?

So on the small rule book, page 80,  under transports, paragraph titled Embarking, it states and I quote "If the players need to measure a 'range' involving the 'embarked' unit (except for its shooting) , this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.
Could this 'range' mean the 6" for the banner of blood/deep strike

eldrad2000 wrote:
So on the small rule book, page 80,  under transports, paragraph titled Embarking, it states and I quote "If the players need to measure a 'range' involving the 'embarked' unit (except for its shooting) , this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull.
Could this 'range' mean the 6" for the banner of blood/deep strike

Yes. That is exactly what it means