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Hello Dakka, im starting up a CSM force but everyone has been telling me its the worst codex. Im not bothered by that all to much since im a fluff player. But that doesnt mean a win once in a while is a unwanted thing. Now I have a few questions to ask.

1) I will be running some of the worst models because i like the models. The deflier, thousand sons and the hel brute. Ive heard that the hel brute becomes decent when run in a formation. I cannot find any literature on this formation, where should i look?
2) CSM seems to be lacking transports, ive been told another company called forge world sells chaos drop pods. Are these legal to use in games?
3) Im very much into the idea of running a Ahriman warband of thousand sons. I know i can ally in demons to fill some gaps in the CSM codex and im thinking of bringing Kairos or a custom Lord of Change with some horrors and maybe a psychic Demon Prince in the Heavy slot (due to the bonus from Demons).
this list would look something like this. HQ : AHriman, Kairos (ally) . Two squads of Tsons in rhinos. Vindicator, Defiler, 5 term,ies in a land raider, 20 pink horrors and maybe a helbrute formation or Psychic Demon Prince. Is this list something that can give a semi decent game? I know eldar and necrons are over the top so im not to concerned with winning those match ups. But overall would a magic heavy list work?

Also, I also like the Forge Fiend model but cant tell if its a good unit.

Any advice would help. Thanks

1) This was a digital-only release as far as I know. Should be available on the Black Library website still, if you want to buy it. It has more than just 1 formation...I believe there are 3 centered around 1 or more Helbrute.

2) Ask the friends you play with if they mind you using forgeworld models. Some people do mind, but I imagine most don't. But I don't think that Chaos Drop-Pods are a thing, but I am no Forgeworld expert.

3) Psychic Heavy does work, especially in terms of a Daemon Summoing Factory. I'll let others expand on this, though, because I don't have much experience against armies with a ton of Warp Charges that didn't revolve around one of the two Daemonology tables.

Forgeworld is more of a subsidiary of Games Workshop than a third-party company - GW tournaments (such as held in Warhammer World in Nottingham) allow Forgeworld models and rules sources, but other people may be more restrictive.

Chaos Drop Pods are called Dreadclaws, but I can't give any advice wether they are worth it, they don't work quite like loyalist drop pods.

There are also rumours of a Tzenchian Daemonkin book being not far off (along the same theme of Khorne Daemonkin) and this sounds right up your alley.

It's called a Dataslate and they're online only. Helcult is the most popular and the best one of the bunch. But, Helbrutes really do suck. You would do better by using one as a Ferrum Infernus Dreadnaught. Rules are Forge World but the model can be the same.

Forge World isn't a separate company, just a separate branch. Like Lincoln is to Ford if you know cars. It's the luxury branch of GW. They do have a kinda Drop Pod called the Dreadclaw, and another bigger one called the Kharbdyis or something like that. Both of them, and that Ferrum Infernus I mentioned, can be found in Imperial Armour 13, also from Forge World.

You can run Ahriman and a Daemon Prince, some Thousand Sons and whatever else you want in a single CAD, then you take another CAD with Kairos and Hearlds of Tzeentch on Discs and you have yourself a whole bunch of units ready to summon all sorts of goodies. Your CSM might be your 'main' force, but you'll get more use out of the Daemons to summon more of them. Just remember that Thousand Sons are expensive in small units because of their Aspiring Sorcerer. Big units actually are somewhat worth their points. And with Abriman, you don't need Drop Pods. You can Infiltrate via his built in Warlord Trait to put the units where you want.

I'd spend more points on Daemons than on CSM. Take the things you GOTTA have, like maybe that Defiler (though the Soul Grinder is better and looks close to the same) and your Thousand Sons, but skip Terminators in a Land Raider because that's a ridiculous amount of points right there. As it stands, you're not going to be able to field half of this till you're playing at 2000pts. That said, if you go the summoning route, it can be a very good list, even with the 'fun' units you really want to include.

Great tips guys. Thanks so much for the replies.

Table wrote:
Hello Dakka, im starting up a CSM force but everyone has been telling me its the worst codex. Im not bothered by that all to much since im a fluff player. But that doesnt mean a win once in a while is a unwanted thing. Now I have a few questions to ask.

1) I will be running some of the worst models because i like the models. The deflier, thousand sons and the hel brute. Ive heard that the hel brute becomes decent when run in a formation. I cannot find any literature on this formation, where should i look?
2) CSM seems to be lacking transports, ive been told another company called forge world sells chaos drop pods. Are these legal to use in games?
3) Im very much into the idea of running a Ahriman warband of thousand sons. I know i can ally in demons to fill some gaps in the CSM codex and im thinking of bringing Kairos or a custom Lord of Change with some horrors and maybe a psychic Demon Prince in the Heavy slot (due to the bonus from Demons).
this list would look something like this. HQ : AHriman, Kairos (ally) . Two squads of Tsons in rhinos. Vindicator, Defiler, 5 term,ies in a land raider, 20 pink horrors and maybe a helbrute formation or Psychic Demon Prince. Is this list something that can give a semi decent game? I know eldar and necrons are over the top so im not to concerned with winning those match ups. But overall would a magic heavy list work?

Also, I also like the Forge Fiend model but cant tell if its a good unit.

Any advice would help. Thanks

Dirge casters on Rhinos are gold.

As for Thousand Sons, try this link: Tzeentch linkety link

The Defiler is an awesome model and its not really that horrible either. 4 Hull Points, a 5+ invul save, Battle Cannon and a harvester Cannon makes it somewhat similar to an imperial Knight, really, only weaker and commensurately cheaper. its downfall is deployment. players rarely deploy them well and they are giant kick me signs. but when they are given their chance to shine as a rear defender that blasts away all game with claws to stop incursions in the backfield, not too bad at all. The initiative on it kinda stinks but other than that Its definitely not the worst model ever.

Table wrote:
Hello Dakka, im starting up a CSM force but everyone has been telling me its the worst codex. Im not bothered by that all to much since im a fluff player. But that doesnt mean a win once in a while is a unwanted thing. Now I have a few questions to ask.

1) I will be running some of the worst models because i like the models. The deflier, thousand sons and the hel brute. Ive heard that the hel brute becomes decent when run in a formation. I cannot find any literature on this formation, where should i look?
2) CSM seems to be lacking transports, ive been told another company called forge world sells chaos drop pods. Are these legal to use in games?
3) Im very much into the idea of running a Ahriman warband of thousand sons. I know i can ally in demons to fill some gaps in the CSM codex and im thinking of bringing Kairos or a custom Lord of Change with some horrors and maybe a psychic Demon Prince in the Heavy slot (due to the bonus from Demons).
this list would look something like this. HQ : AHriman, Kairos (ally) . Two squads of Tsons in rhinos. Vindicator, Defiler, 5 term,ies in a land raider, 20 pink horrors and maybe a helbrute formation or Psychic Demon Prince. Is this list something that can give a semi decent game? I know eldar and necrons are over the top so im not to concerned with winning those match ups. But overall would a magic heavy list work?

Also, I also like the Forge Fiend model but cant tell if its a good unit.

Any advice would help. Thanks

1) Helbrute formations can be very good - I always run a Helcult formation! Thousand Sons aren't that good unless you're fighting MEQs, but if you want lots of psychic abilities they're good!
2) Rhinos with dirge casters are good, and the ForgeWorld drop pods (which as mentioned is a GW subsidiary) aren't bad!
3) Allying in is no problem, just consult the Allies matrix.

I've found running a Helcult formation with a sorcerer with Biomancy to cast Endurance on a squad of 35 Fearless Cultists is really good.

Table wrote:
Hello Dakka, im starting up a CSM force but everyone has been telling me its the worst codex. Im not bothered by that all to much since im a fluff player. But that doesnt mean a win once in a while is a unwanted thing. Now I have a few questions to ask.

1) I will be running some of the worst models because i like the models. The deflier, thousand sons and the hel brute. Ive heard that the hel brute becomes decent when run in a formation. I cannot find any literature on this formation, where should i look?
2) CSM seems to be lacking transports, ive been told another company called forge world sells chaos drop pods. Are these legal to use in games?
3) Im very much into the idea of running a Ahriman warband of thousand sons. I know i can ally in demons to fill some gaps in the CSM codex and im thinking of bringing Kairos or a custom Lord of Change with some horrors and maybe a psychic Demon Prince in the Heavy slot (due to the bonus from Demons).
this list would look something like this. HQ : AHriman, Kairos (ally) . Two squads of Tsons in rhinos. Vindicator, Defiler, 5 term,ies in a land raider, 20 pink horrors and maybe a helbrute formation or Psychic Demon Prince. Is this list something that can give a semi decent game? I know eldar and necrons are over the top so im not to concerned with winning those match ups. But overall would a magic heavy list work?

Also, I also like the Forge Fiend model but cant tell if its a good unit.

Any advice would help. Thanks

1. Fateweaver is highly overrated. Sure he's good, but honestly, you'll get a lot more mileage out of a basic Lord of Change toting his trusty Boomstick, (Lesser Gift default option) + a pair of Greater Gifts for protection. Add in 3 levels of Divination and you've got one of the game's best support bots.
If he lands Precognition, he's all but unstoppable in the assault phase thanks to "re-roll Everything!"

2. The Best way to (ab)use Ahriman is to either;
a) Roll up 2 powers on Santic Daemonology + take Psychic Shriek from Telepathy. The hope is to land Gate of Infinity and/or Sanctuary. With Gate, he can teleport around with a bunch of Termies for instant unit deletion. Land Sanctuary, and you suddenly have Chaos Termies rocking a 3++ invuln save!
b) Roll the same 2x Santic + default to Psy Shriek. Slap in a Rhino. The hope here is for Cleansing Flame which is one of, if not the single best Nova power in the game. Truck about, pop the top hatch, and start psychically blasting the crap out of things!
And remember, thanks to his shiny staff, at worst, Ahriman can toss out 3 Psychic Shrieks a turn... that should pretty much allow to point at any non-vehicle unit in the game and simply remove it at will.

3. Whatever a Defiler can do, a Soul Grinder does, only better. The only leg up the Defiler has is that it's more flexible in the Shooting phase, as it can have both anti-MEQ and anti-horde guns at the same time, whereas the Soul Grinder can to choose between the 3+ save flattening pie-plate, or the 'roasty-toasty anything with a 4+ or worse save'...

4. Summon Farm is a massive trap. Combining both Chaos Marines + Daemons hurts your overall ability to maximise your WC pool. Summoning is WC intensive, typically requiring a minimum of 5 dice per attempt to get it off. (and that's only a 50/50 shot at it!)
If your army is doing nothing but making more of itself for 2+ turns, it's not doing anything really to kill off the enemy... meanwhile your opponent can just go ahead and focus on your summoners to their little heart's content!

That's not to say that summoning is junk, just that you really should never make it your main tactic! Malefic is damn brutal when used to bring in a key unit or two when & where you really need them.

i'm with the "keep the CSMs to a minimum" people, but i also prefer daemons anyway. tzeentchy daemons are pretty good and can be lots of fun.

the CSM prince with spell familiar is fun, give him skalathrax for more fun. you could even run 2!

you could also run a tz biker/disc sorcerer for a 3++ save guy who still gets you Tsons as troops, not "optimized" but still probably effective.

i find the more i try to combo tz daemons and tz csms… i end up using most of my points as daemons…

edit: and to make summoning farms more effective, you can mix in fast threats and min/max a bit with your dice. you're looking at 5-7 dice per WC 3 power. those spell familiar DPs are great for getting more out of your WC dice, as a 5 dice summon has pretty good odds when you can reroll it.

I have to disagree with the "keep the CSMs to a minimum" crowd. I get where they're coming from, but that sort of thinking just makes no sense to me. What's the point of playing csm if your barely taking any csm? Then your playing daemons and allying in some csm, not the other way round.

I don't play tzeentch often but I usually do pretty well when I take ahriman, he's expensive but he's a beast if you can keep him alive. The last game I had was a bunch of TSons in rhinos with some chosen and a predator. It went pretty well, but I the core of my force was ahriman and the TSons that kinda kept group hugging in the center of the board while the objective -secured rhinos drove out to cap points. TSons are good, but don't rely on that 4++ to keep them safe.

As for drop pods, yes. Forge world has them and more in Imperial armour 13 Lost and the damned. It's pretty much the best addition anyone could take for csm. The drop pods there are more expensive than loyalist pods but they're much better too. They're flyers that have nova-ish flamers when they come down (still on the first turn), which can be pretty nice, but the real advantage is when they are objective secured. Unfortunately that won't be the case for TSons. You'd need basic csm or BL chosen for that. There is a bigger version which is kinda meh for it's points, but it's not THAT bad as a unit.

It also has renegade guard, so you could mix those in instead of daemons if you wanted to. TSons had their own regiments of guards after all, even after the heresy.
You also get chaos rapier, which are weapon platform for normal csm that pretty much make havocs and forgefiends obsolete. Which is great news for people who don't like the forgefiend, such as myslef ^^.

so in recap:
1) The dataslate (Black Library has these) makes helbrutes much better, if you insist on taking one. But keep in mind that IA13 also has other dreads, much like the loyalist versions.
TSons are good, but your going to have to really make the rest of the army points efficient to somewhat mitigate the costs and unless buffed, they're no tougher than you average 13pts marine. Defiler is really flexible, but again way too expensive. More so considering you have TSons.
2) Dreadclaws are awesome and get you across the board fast. The other IA 13 transports are land raiders. In a TSons list though, they may be too expensive. The cheapest is still 100 pts, so you're probably better off with rhinos. and deepstriking termis if you want to take em.
3) Magic Heavy can work. Ahriman can be devastating with the right powers and enough dice. If you want to go daemon allies, then your probably going to be happy with the coming Tzeentch daemonkin codex. Although I doubt it will have Ahriman in it. You don't NEED daemon allies though. At least not with some IA13 back up.

1. The black library, GWs book department sells the helbrute rules.

2. The chaos drop pod is called a dreadclaw, however it costs over a hundred points, three times the price of a regular space marine drop pod with none of the safety measures to stop your men dying when the pod comes on, I wouldn't recommend one to you.

3. Thousand sons are a mixed bag. I personally would never bring them to a game I wanted to win.

4. Forgefiend, while gorgeous, never impressed me when I used it.