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Creating a competitive tourny list for this weekend, there are so many ways to go with Eldar now, but thinking of trying something like this before switching to more wraiths/D's for a try. Autarch is there for the reserve rolls and to camp with one of the reaper squads and add some more ap3 shooting at BS 6. Other than that things are pretty straight forward, tons of mobility and BS 5, Crimson Death for anti-air/tank, lots of scatbikes. I know the reapers are often singled out for being immobile easy targets, but I have had incredible results with them, there output with the exarch and all BS 5+ at ap3 is really incredible, and the priority saturation with Eldar is now through the roof, opponents don't have the luxury of solely focusing on the reapers as every unit is putting the hurting on - I deploy these in cover and haven't been disappointed yet.



Combined Arms Detachment

HQ - Autarch w/ Reaper Launcher
Troops - 3x Windriders w/ 3x Scatter Lasers
Troops - 3x Windriders w/ 3x Scatter Lasers
Troops - 3x Windriders w/ 3x Scatter Lasers
Troops - 3x Windriders w/ 3x Scatter Lasers
Troops - 3x Windriders w/ 3x Scatter Lasers

- Aspect Host (BS +1)
6x Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch
6x Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch
6X Dark Reapers, Exarch w/ Tempest Launcher

- Aspect Host (BS +1)
8x Warp Spiders w/ Exarch
8x Warp Spiders w/ Exarch
6X Dark Reapers, Exarch w/ Tempest Launcher

- Crimson Death
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter

Do you feel you have enough shooting against heavy armor? I do like the list overall, however.

 Sarigar wrote:
Do you feel you have enough shooting against heavy armor? I do like the list overall, however.

What do you call heavy armour, because those Hawks all have haywire grenades, and he's got 6 str8 lance shots.

Yeah, Hiveof basically nailed my response, the Crimson Death is putting out 12 STR 8 AP 2 shots, 6 of which are Lance, and the two hawk units are there to charge around with haywire. At 1850 I THINK??? that's enough as a TAC list, but certainly if I came up against a fully mechanized AV 13/14 wall consistently I may need to adjust. If I were to add more anti tank that is different from what I currently have it would probably be some hornets with pulse/Lance, I just love the model and I think they are just plain better than war walkers. I've always likes dragons, and off course wraithguard are busted, but with the wave serpents serious offensive nerf, I just don't like the idea of spending 120-130 points for the transports, as that represents a ton of potential firepower in the form of another aspect squad or a bunch of bikes etc. Perhaps if the meta shifts dragons in wave serpents will be the stronger choice, I think d-scythes in a wave serpent will always feel to expensive to me, but we shall see.

peteralmo wrote:
Yeah, Hiveof basically nailed my response, the Crimson Death is putting out 12 STR 8 AP 2 shots, 6 of which are Lance, and the two hawk units are there to charge around with haywire. At 1850 I THINK??? that's enough as a TAC list, but certainly if I came up against a fully mechanized AV 13/14 wall consistently I may need to adjust. If I were to add more anti tank that is different from what I currently have it would probably be some hornets with pulse/Lance, I just love the model and I think they are just plain better than war walkers. I've always likes dragons, and off course wraithguard are busted, but with the wave serpents serious offensive nerf, I just don't like the idea of spending 120-130 points for the transports, as that represents a ton of potential firepower in the form of another aspect squad or a bunch of bikes etc. Perhaps if the meta shifts dragons in wave serpents will be the stronger choice, I think d-scythes in a wave serpent will always feel to expensive to me, but we shall see.

Honestly anymore anti tank will be excessive, problem is that it may be on the strong side for a pickup but for a Tourney the only thing you MAY have trouble with is 5 flyrants, it's a strong list

Yeah mass flyrants for sure, though I think the Crimson Death will do serious damage the turn they arrive. But as always a very linear but high powered strategy, like flyrants, will excel against a TAC list that it hard counters a good portion of. I think flyers in general when taken enmasse will spike plenty of wins against armies that just didn't prepare for more than maybe one or two flyers, hence the Crimson Death as an auto include for me here on out in larger point games.

Lists looks great, lots of agile ObSec and great fire power, I wouldn't worry too much about flyrant spam, at a GT or equivalent yes, but a local tourny? Probably not. And as you've noted, the Crimson Death is no slouch against them.

peteralmo wrote:
Yeah mass flyrants for sure, though I think the Crimson Death will do serious damage the turn they arrive. But as always a very linear but high powered strategy, like flyrants, will excel against a TAC list that it hard counters a good portion of. I think flyers in general when taken enmasse will spike plenty of wins against armies that just didn't prepare for more than maybe one or two flyers, hence the Crimson Death as an auto include for me here on out in larger point games.

The problem is that 4 shots on a jinking tyrant only does 1/2 wounds, while even if they don't jink it'll only do 3 wounds means that if you target 3, and all 3 jink, the other two kill two of your jets without breaking a sweat and the three jinking ones might finish the last on off.
My point is that I can't seem to build a list to counter flyrants without losing a lot of effectiveness against everyone else.
-anecdote time- my wraithknight once got a skyfire objective.... Good fun.

You know I just remembered the new kick ass rules for dark reapers, they get to re-roll hits against flyers and ignore jink, that's definitely not insignificant when thinking about different ways to tackle flyrants. Almost makes me want to consider taking starshot missiles, but it's a bit pricey imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just did some math on my current build, both units of reapers against flyrants are doing 4-5 str 8 ap 3 jink ignoring hits (starshot), or 8-10 str 5 ap 3 jink ignoring hits (starswarm). That's awesome, and maybe you don't even need starshot with those numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember the Crimson Death does have preferred enemy flyers and flying monstrous creatures, which again is not insignificant, and I don't think you should fire them at separate targets automatically, I think it would be important to ensure the first target is dead before moving onto the second, also, dark reapers are awesome lol.

peteralmo wrote:
You know I just remembered the new kick ass rules for dark reapers, they get to re-roll hits against flyers and ignore jink, that's definitely not insignificant when thinking about different ways to tackle flyrants. Almost makes me want to consider taking starshot missiles, but it's a bit pricey imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just did some math on my current build, both units of reapers against flyrants are doing 4-5 str 8 ap 3 jink ignoring hits (starshot), or 8-10 str 5 ap 3 jink ignoring hits (starswarm). That's awesome, and maybe you don't even need starshot with those numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also remember the Crimson Death does have preferred enemy flyers and flying monstrous creatures, which again is not insignificant, and I don't think you should fire them at separate targets automatically, I think it would be important to ensure the first target is dead before moving onto the second, also, dark reapers are awesome lol.

Firing at 3 different flyrants would make 3 flyrants jink effective removing 3 times the damage back. Problem with flakk is the ap4 and starshots are much harder to hit with.
Indeed it has been proven mathematically that they're the same sort of effectiveness against flyrants, but starshots have uses against other things too. Didn't factor in the preferred enemy for jets, doh! Exactly why you're best to fire at 3, because 1 Has a chance of killing a tyrant(especially the exarch) so even if you don't kill it you'd drastically lower its return fire sadly the other two can probably kill a jet each.
Agreed on the reaper statement, they're awesome especially the PL, but I like scorps more than reapers.

It looks an OK start but I have some serious concerns as follows.

Autarch is great choice here for the Crimson Death. Scatbikes are good. Whilst none of the Aspects are bad.

That brings me to the Reapers, with star shot they serve no function. Killing marines is easy you have a massive deficiency in AT, which the lack of star shot just compounds. Drop 6 Spiders to get them.

I disagree that quintFlyrant is that much of an issue. The Reapers hurt fly rants with star shot they down 1 a turn. Then you have good volume fire from the scatbikes and spiders to help too. When the Hunters arrive it should be a mop up job.

However Imp Knights walk all over you. AdLance & FBSC is practically an auto win. That is your issue the high at,mourned armies you often see at tournies.

Firing at 3 different flyrants would make 3 flyrants jink effective removing 3 times the damage back. Problem with flakk is the ap4 and starshots are much harder to hit with.
Indeed it has been proven mathematically that they're the same sort of effectiveness against flyrants, but starshots have uses against other things too. Didn't factor in the preferred enemy for jets, doh! Exactly why you're best to fire at 3, because 1 Has a chance of killing a tyrant(especially the exarch) so even if you don't kill it you'd drastically lower its return fire sadly the other two can probably kill a jet each.
Agreed on the reaper statement, they're awesome especially the PL, but I like scorps more than reapers.

Not sure where flakk and ap 4 entered into the equation, but the starshot and starswarm are both ap 3. Scorpions are definitely a much improved unit, however with the aspect host being so good I can't see a reason to ever run an aspect squad without giving it the appropriate +1 BS/WS, and for scorpions that means 3 melee units which I think all pale in comparison to the shooting ones.

It looks an OK start but I have some serious concerns as follows.

Autarch is great choice here for the Crimson Death. Scatbikes are good. Whilst none of the Aspects are bad.

That brings me to the Reapers, with star shot they serve no function. Killing marines is easy you have a massive deficiency in AT, which the lack of star shot just compounds. Drop 6 Spiders to get them.

I disagree that quintFlyrant is that much of an issue. The Reapers hurt fly rants with star shot they down 1 a turn. Then you have good volume fire from the scatbikes and spiders to help too. When the Hunters arrive it should be a mop up job.

However Imp Knights walk all over you. AdLance & FBSC is practically an auto win. That is your issue the high at,mourned armies you often see at tournies.

You mentioned that starshot served no function, then went on to recommend getting starshot, did you mean starswarm served no purpose? The str 5 ap 3 heavy 2 shot? I think this is what you meant, and although I dont agree that that much str 5 ap 3 shooting at BS 5 is useless, I do agree that I should make room for the starshot missiles, and will do so.

As far as the anti-armor issue goes, two units of hawks with haywire, two units of reapers with starshot, and Crimson Death, I think I have a great plan against traditional armor. So you must just be referring to knights/super heavies, which hawks and crimson death still do admirably against, but you must have something else in mind. Are you advocating for something like fire dragons in a transport, or just lots of D?

Doh! It's starhawk that's ap 4, that's what I though you meant, not starswarm

Sorry I typo'd it meant to say "That brings me to the Reapers, withOUT star shot they serve no function"... Hope that makes it make more sense. Yeah the S5 Ap3 is great for killing marines, but they are easy to kill in lots of ways (scatter bikes will muller them too).

Yes Knights is what I was talking about they are very prevalent on the Tourney scene (and no Hawks don't do well against them unless you have lots of hawks). I don't think Fragons in a Serpent fit the rest of your list as the Serpents would be the only armour. That leaves Fragons/wraithguard with another delivery system (WWP means another ally). Or Wraithknights or Vauls. Vauls would IMO suit your army best though the Wraithknight obviously brings the most to the table.

Yeah I hear what you're saying, and it's a fair point. Knights are 13/12/12 with a 4++ on only one facing per turn right? I rearranged a few points to give the reapers all starshot. So just looking as is, statisticaly, if I treat both units of hawks as a single unit against a knight, same with Crimson Hunters and reapers, they could each drop a knight if they get a non-ion shield facing. 12 hawks, each exarch throws a haywire in the shooting phase at BS 6, often getting 2 glances sometimes 1, then 12 haywire on the charge connecting on 4's, so statistically 6 haywire connect, barring lots of unlucky ones they are doing 5-8 glances on that turn? Crimson Death is 12 str 8 ap 2 shots, 4 are at BS 5, 6 are lances, i think your looking at 8 or 9 hits on average with 4 or 5 glances/pens, probably not killing a knight in one round but certainly two. Then you have 12 reapers firing 14 str 8 shots hitting on 2's, so connecting with 10-12 shots, doing 5-6 glances/pens. Looks like Each unit can kill a knight in one round with above average rolls, with a guaranteed kill in two rounds, not counting the hawks as they will only get one shot before being stomped to death. I could also drop one unit of scatbikes to open up points for more hawks in each unit for more of a guaranteed kill. Now if were talking adamantium lance formation then these statistics do go out the window with a 4++ rerollable, it is a true hard counter and I stand a good chance of either losing or being forced to play a chicken and mouse defensive game and winning on points/tactical play. To be fair, even D weapons don't bypass the 4++ rerollable unless you spike 6's. I don't mean to overly sugar coat it, it's not more ideal than having D weapons, but as a TAC list against an unknown opponent it at least has a reasonable game plan. Now I agree the list could be rearranged to include a wraithknight, but given formation requirements the changes would be drastic, I think it would just end up looking like a fundamentally different list that isn't that much more affective against 4++ rerollable. Here is the different list, extra points were used to make the autarch a lone attack unit with melta for some extra anti-armor.



Combined Arms Detachment

HQ - Autarch Skyrunner w/ Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun & Power Weapon

Troops - 3x Windriders w/ 3x Scatter Lasers
Troops - 3x Windriders w/ 3x Scatter Lasers
Troops - 3x Windriders w/ 3x Scatter Lasers
Troops - 3x Windriders w/ 3x Scatter Lasers
Troops - 3x Windriders w/ 3x Scatter Lasers

- Aspect Host (BS +1)
6x Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch
6x Swooping Hawks w/ Exarch
6X Dark Reapers w/ Exarch, all Starshot

- Aspect Host (BS +1)
6x Warp Spiders w/ Exarch
6x Warp Spiders w/ Exarch
6X Dark Reapers w/ Exarch, all Starshot

- Crimson Death
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Crimson Hunter
Crimson Hunter

It is ok to have counters and have a rough plan of action to help in that match up. However AdLance makes up anything upto 25% of the meta having that as a bad matchup (and also any AV spam, including Cron AV13 wall and Guard Russwall) is poor planning.

I'm not sure what would be a hard counter to 6 hull point 4++ rerollable. I can think of some units that can damage the Knights reliably, but do they have a true hard counter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Apparently AL only has a few true counters, killy chapter master bikestars, thunderwolfstars, and flyers, last time I checked SM weren't dominating the tournament scene, that said I have a powerful flyer detachment, will have to lean on that as much as I can.

Swooping Hawks are awesome against Knights. Especially if you give them +1 BS in the Host. They are 106 pts for a unit of 6 hitting on sixes and stripping a hull point on 2+. Also Ion shields are not effective in the assault phase. They only work vs shooting attacks. Hawks move 18" (hitting Flyrants they move over on a 4+ for free) and then assault 12" with fleet.

They are a GREAT anti-knight unit.

Ad Lanceis v prevalent in the US but not so much here in the UK. I'm not a great player but I have beaten it every time I have faced it. Including tournament armies. I don't rate it at all. Way to Rock Paper Scissors.

Thanks for the encouragement. Hawks are WS 4 and so are knights, wouldn't that be 4's to hit with grenades on the charge?

peteralmo wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement. Hawks are WS 4 and so are knights, wouldn't that be 4's to hit with grenades on the charge?

Indeed, so that's an average of 3 hp for a unit of 6 not including the one that is thrown

Correct, which is why I predicted both units of hawks working together could down a knight in one turn.