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With 3D Printing with Plastics, Resins, and even Metals well into the Beta stage, 3D Printing of food just entering Beta stage, and an early Alpha of Cloth 3D Printing, it's not a question of if 3D Printing is here to stay, but more of a question of How will it affect the world, or specifically Table Top War-gaming.

GW vehemently hates 3D, though I'm not sure about SAS or PP. I'm sure CB doesn't care due to how detailed all of it's models are; it would be incredibly hard to create proxy Infinity models that would look the part. It's understandable to be apprehensive about it; custom models for cheap (Assuming you actually had a Printer) is more preferable to shelling out $50 for 5 models for a 10 man unit.

Which raises a thought experiment; what if a company were to surface that just made the rules, and only had a very limited model range? Instead of units/armies, players in this game use the almost DnD character creation rules to create a custom character with custom skills/equipment. They then, after making their perfect character, can print off (Or pay someone to print off) a model for them that exactly represents their chosen avatar.

I personally think that idea of giving the player (Almost complete) freedom over their character would be a good thing.

It would have to be a D&D style game with a single character model per player to have any chance of success, 3d printing models at a level of quality even close to what conventional methods can produce is way too expensive for whole armies. And even then I'm not really convinced that it would have much appeal, the people who are most interested in customizing their character models tend to have the conversion skills to build them the cheap way. So who exactly would the target market for this be?

 Slarg232 wrote:

GW vehemently hates 3D

No they don't. They use it themselves to create sculpts and molds. They don't have any more problem than any other miniature company.

 Slarg232 wrote:
though I'm not sure about SAS or PP. I'm sure CB doesn't care due to how detailed all of it's models are;

All the miniature companies probably think much the same. "It's something that we are aware of as a possible threat to our business, but at the moment it is not really relevant"

 Slarg232 wrote:

Which raises a thought experiment; what if a company were to surface that just made the rules, and only had a very limited model range? Instead of units/armies, players in this game use the almost DnD character creation rules to create a custom character with custom skills/equipment. They then, after making their perfect character, can print off (Or pay someone to print off) a model for them that exactly represents their chosen avatar.

I personally think that idea of giving the player (Almost complete) freedom over their character would be a good thing.

Honestly, we may see something in RPG's were people could print off a single mini to represent their own personal miniature, but we are unlikely to ever see "at home" printing on a large scale. Like printing your own books on a printer, I don't think it will ever be economically viable to print at home, or even in a business, over large scale plastic casting.

Where I do see it working is FLGS's having a high end 3d printer and helping people design and print single minis from a limited, but still large, selection of parts for RPGs or center piece minis. The type of thing where people would be willing to spend £30-£40 on a single kick ass mini.

Perhaps some sort of assisted build, like computer game character creation. You chose your style (sci fi, fantasy, etc), gender, class, weapons, then it gives you a range of generics with that and you can add or delete various items, fiddle around with it etc. Send it off to print on the high end in store printer, like getting a poster printed at the local copy shop they check it over, clean it up, make sure your not going to get something unexpected happening and print it out.

 Steve steveson wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:

Which raises a thought experiment; what if a company were to surface that just made the rules, and only had a very limited model range? Instead of units/armies, players in this game use the almost DnD character creation rules to create a custom character with custom skills/equipment. They then, after making their perfect character, can print off (Or pay someone to print off) a model for them that exactly represents their chosen avatar.

I personally think that idea of giving the player (Almost complete) freedom over their character would be a good thing.

Honestly, we may see something in RPG's were people could print off a single mini to represent their own personal miniature, but we are unlikely to ever see "at home" printing on a large scale. Like printing your own books on a printer, I don't think it will ever be economically viable to print at home, or even in a business, over large scale plastic casting.

I dunno, people probably thought the same thing about computers in general back in the day.

Also for consideration that making a model is quite a bit easier than making a book.

One genre I can see it taking off in is the ever-more -popular Fleet command games. Printing a 28mm character might be tricky, but it would be comparatively easy to model and print, say, an alternative Star Destroyer mark for Armada or a custom UNSC cruiser for Halo. Larger surfaces, less curves, simpler detail all lends itself well to 3D printing.

Having worked for more than a decade with 3D rapid prototyping, 3D printing, and CADCAM milling....

3D printing of miniatures as a form of manufacturing remains further than a decade away.

It remains VASTLY less expensive to use 3D printing for the masters, and then use those to create your production manufacturing methods (either white-metal casting, or plastic injection molding). The company I worked for did a LOT of milling of production molds for plastic injection molding (mostly for auto parts).

There IS some newer, hi-speed plastic 3D printing that has been developed in just the last few months/this year/last year.

But these methods have yet to scale to production scales, due to the expense of the materials involved. But they are FAST, and require very little to no detailing of models to be 3D printing (such as supporting structures).

So... There is promise that 3D printing for SOME applications as a form of manufacturing will come sooner than later.

As for home hobbyists, the resolution to print a LOT of stuff useful to gamers is only a few years away.

It will NOT be something that every gamer will have (just like most gamers today do not own ZBrush or Mudbox), as the higher resolution printers are going to remain in the $5,000+ range for at least another five years (if not longer).

But even that is a range where we will see almost EVERY gaming company in existence having a 3D printer to make custom terrain, buildings, and some model parts (CUSTOM not Production).

The thing that WILL CHANGE with 3D printing, though, is the availability of your everyday gamer to use a 3D modeling program to create their own masters (which can then be produced by an existing company) through companies like Shapeways.

We already see this democratizing the ability of sculptors and gamers to get their own visions realized.

Within five years, we will have more dedicated tools for gamers to use to put together their own models more easily (human-oid, alien, and vehicle). Currently, it still requires a considerable amount of skill and talent to produce the 3D models required for 3D printing.

MB

GW think, or at least Kirby's public comments, that 3D printing is no threat and will amount to almost nothing even in 10 years. That's quite a lack of vision and misjudgment in how fast technology can improve.

GW could turn it to their advantage and be like that custom teddy bear shop, or the Lego shop. Choose a miniature like space marine commander, and pick the upgrades from the army list, and then 3D print your character on the spot. No more complaining from people about not having the right parts in the box, you get one of all the pieces you need to make a chosen character. Have multiple bodies and heads and legs, click the options, pay, print it out and assemble. Selling points are that with so many combinations yours is likely 'unique' and your choice, you also have all the options in the codex reflected in the parts you can choose.

The problem is that it's not GW that will suffer. I would love to see GW go down and take losses, but the real problem is that other companies are effected. Re-printing X-Wing miniatures, for example, already is easily done with 3d-printing.

 Slarg232 wrote:
Also for consideration that making a model is quite a bit easier than making a book.

It's not, but since it seems to be a subject you're only passingly familiar with, the ignorance is forgivable.

For example, your concluding paragraph about how people could easily get a 'perfect avatar of their character' is completely missing how much work that would entail. Either the company that makes that game invests a substantial amount of time and effort into putting together a character creation program that allows a player to put together their character, AND and those myriad options are compatible for being printed out, no matter what combination they're used in, or it's reliant on knowing someone who understands 3D modeling well enough to do it for a friend.

That's something a lot of people crowing about how 3D printing will create this rush of awesome unique models for everyone seems to be overlooking. Making a knock-off generic 'marine' and sharing the template would be fairly easy, but getting from there to 'commander with this type of face, hair, iconography, and weapons load out' requires somebody with a great deal of modeling expertise to pull off.

What they SHOULD do is offer the rules, kits at a much more reasonable price point and then offer options for building a custom model on their web page and have THEM 3d print it for you.

This way they keep their style and aesthetic available while putting themselves in the market of 3d printing the same way other companies will 3d print your models and ship them to you. If you have your own 3d printer, GREAT! But many people don't and they are a market that can be catered to by creating a service of convenience.

TBH I see 3d printing as always being niche due to people wanting to be able to make predictions about how a game will play.

Unless the models you are producing by 3d are the same size as the "official models" and look the same, many people will not be interested in playing against your models.

People will try to make models to gain an advantage, and 3-d printing will be seen as a loophole side product.

Also most people will never have the time or expertise to actually make their own designs to be printed out until there is software which is basically "pick one of these 20 faces and put it there and tweak the size by +/-5 for the nose.." like mmo character creation. Which will still end up with little actual unique looks between models made by the program.

It will be a tool for new model companies to make models one day. That day is many many years away as it is not a mass production tool, and may never be.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Re-printing X-Wing miniatures, for example, already is easily done with 3d-printing.

It isn't really. The 3d printed ones suck, and are only barely tolerable for ships that FFG hasn't made yet. The people that are buying 3d printed ships as a substitute for the real ones are the same people that would buy conventional recasts or just play with empty bases to save money.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:
Also for consideration that making a model is quite a bit easier than making a book.

It's not, but since it seems to be a subject you're only passingly familiar with, the ignorance is forgivable.

For example, your concluding paragraph about how people could easily get a 'perfect avatar of their character' is completely missing how much work that would entail. Either the company that makes that game invests a substantial amount of time and effort into putting together a character creation program that allows a player to put together their character, AND and those myriad options are compatible for being printed out, no matter what combination they're used in, or it's reliant on knowing someone who understands 3D modeling well enough to do it for a friend.

That's something a lot of people crowing about how 3D printing will create this rush of awesome unique models for everyone seems to be overlooking. Making a knock-off generic 'marine' and sharing the template would be fairly easy, but getting from there to 'commander with this type of face, hair, iconography, and weapons load out' requires somebody with a great deal of modeling expertise to pull off.

^^THIS^^

I have spent 16 years working with 3D modeling, and It Ain't Easy to do what a LOT of people ask for simple "characters."

They do not seem to understand that 3D modeling for a video game DOES NOT produce a 3D model useable for 3D printing.

So all of the programs like Poser, or Dax studio that allow people to clothe and pose a character don't understand that even AFTER they have got their character all posed, it still takes about 80 - 200 hours of work to make that character printable in most cases (unless the character is naked).

I have been working for the last two years on a way to create 3D models that can be used BOTH for video games AND for 3D printing, and it has not been an easy thing to do (and I still do not know everything I need to learn to complete this - it would help if I knew more about gaming and movie animation, for one. Everything I learned for modeling was to produce 3D prototypes).

I know there is another company working on something like this (the Create your own Character people), but even they have had extreme setbacks in their production pipeline.

The problem isn't the printers.

The problem is the people who know how to create a 3D model for printing are often not the people who best know 3D modeling.

MB

That was one thing that I didn't think of, that people might be thinking that all they have to do is just use whatever 3D computer rendering program they want, and they end up with something that the theoretical 3D printer can output.

Maybe within ten years, maybe within twenty - but not next year or the year after.

Mostly... I think that 3D printing will remain too expensive for a while - though for special characters it may become a good choice.

The material needs work, as does the tech.

The Auld Grump

 Steve steveson wrote:
Perhaps some sort of assisted build, like computer game character creation. You chose your style (sci fi, fantasy, etc), gender, class, weapons, then it gives you a range of generics with that and you can add or delete various items, fiddle around with it etc. Send it off to print on the high end in store printer, like getting a poster printed at the local copy shop they check it over, clean it up, make sure your not going to get something unexpected happening and print it out.

I believe Hero Forge (https://www.heroforge.com/) offers a service similar to what you're proposing here. It allows you to design a custom tabletop character and have the design 3D-printed for you.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:
Also for consideration that making a model is quite a bit easier than making a book.

It's not, but since it seems to be a subject you're only passingly familiar with, the ignorance is forgivable.

For example, your concluding paragraph about how people could easily get a 'perfect avatar of their character' is completely missing how much work that would entail. Either the company that makes that game invests a substantial amount of time and effort into putting together a character creation program that allows a player to put together their character, AND and those myriad options are compatible for being printed out, no matter what combination they're used in, or it's reliant on knowing someone who understands 3D modeling well enough to do it for a friend.

That's something a lot of people crowing about how 3D printing will create this rush of awesome unique models for everyone seems to be overlooking. Making a knock-off generic 'marine' and sharing the template would be fairly easy, but getting from there to 'commander with this type of face, hair, iconography, and weapons load out' requires somebody with a great deal of modeling expertise to pull off.

You mean something like this?

https://www.heroforge.com/

Edit, google-fu turned up another:
http://www.imagine3dminiatures.com/en/


And yet another:
http://www.createyourminis.com/

How about epic scale games?

3d printing small scale tanks would be pretty simple and quick.

otherwise as peg said, some kinda RPG type game would be cool.

Totally put my face on my model

 Peregrine wrote:
It would have to be a D&D style game with a single character model per player to have any chance of success, 3d printing models at a level of quality even close to what conventional methods can produce is way too expensive for whole armies. And even then I'm not really convinced that it would have much appeal, the people who are most interested in customizing their character models tend to have the conversion skills to build them the cheap way. So who exactly would the target market for this be?

Exactly. X-Wing models on Shapeways in anything but the crappy materials commonly cost as much (or much, much more) more than the entire store bought packs, and then you still have to add stands and everything else.

GW price gouging aside, even pewter and resin models can be produced more affordably than 3-D printed models.

Re-printing X-Wing miniatures, for example, already is easily done with 3d-printing.
-------------
It isn't really. The 3d printed ones suck, and are only barely tolerable for ships that FFG hasn't made yet. The people that are buying 3d printed ships as a substitute for the real ones are the same people that would buy conventional recasts or just play with empty bases to save money.

The high-detail is pretty good, and you know perfectly well that the majority of people buying 3-D printed X-Wing models are not buying substitutes of the official models as if they are skeezy purveyors of recasted models. They are fans buying Skipray Blastboats, or Assault gunboats and other ships from the TIE fighter games and the like that are not commercially available.

How can you possibly save money when a Shapeways X-wing ship is 10-15 bucks plus a long wait and shipping?

 AegisGrimm wrote:
and you know perfectly well that the majority of people buying 3-D printed X-Wing models are not buying substitutes of the official models as if they are skeezy purveyors of recasted models. They are fans buying Skipray Blastboats, or Assault gunboats and other ships from the TIE fighter games and the like that are not commercially available.

Well yeah, that's why I mentioned 3d printed models being used for ships FFG hasn't made yet. That's a legitimate market, and I'm sure most of the proxies will be replaced if/when FFG does release those ships. But that's not really a case of 3d printing replacing X-Wing models (as Sigvatr claimed), it's just people being willing to accept a less than ideal substitute in the absence of the real thing. And if someone has found a way to save money by 3d printing stuff that FFG does make then they're probably not honest customers in the first place.

 Desubot wrote:
How about epic scale games?

3d printing small scale tanks would be pretty simple and quick.

otherwise as peg said, some kinda RPG type game would be cool.

Totally put my face on my model

I have made parts for 6mm gaming.

And it remains something that is REALLY EXPENSIVE compared to other methods, because you have to use a REALLY high-resolution printing method or your figures look like crap.

The cost of a 3D printing material capable of a resolution of less than .1mm is about 10x that of typical printing.

And for 6mm figures, you need a resolution of around .01mm, or the figure looks REALLY Pixellated.

And that kind of resolution costs you about 50x what a typical 3D printer costs.

I will admit that for producing masters for 6mm figures, it is a vastly improved method over prior CADCAM milling (which costs between 100x and 1000x what typical 3D printing costs).

But we are not yet to the point where it is economical to print 6mm figures for gaming use; only for masters for another production method.

MB

I am absolutely sure there will be no shortage in high-quality models to print once the printers can actually keep up with what people can design. Have you seen what people do on dedicated pages for 3DSmax, Maya and so on? The problem is that with the current technology a 300$ printer just can not create the fine detail necessary for 28mm scale. That's only a matter of time, though. To the best of my knowledge there is no physical limitation reached so far. Just shell out enough cash and it will be possible. High-quality photo-ink printers can produce miniatures good enough for our purpose (it's just that the custom ink costs in the range of 1000$ per kg).

So really, once 3D printing picks up some more quality (and we are not far away from that point), expect to see completely custom armies. Hell, I'm sure there will be guys who wont have a single duplicate miniature in their whole IG regiment.

As to the question, how companies can work in such an environment: simple. Just sell 3D files and the rules. I would imagine that a lot of people would participate in competitions along the lines of "design the next chapter master miniature and win 100 bucks!"
Seeing the current trend, i'd expect gee-dubs to demand higher prices for 3D files than other companies would charge for plastic models, so that'd probably not work for GW. Big surprise there.

 Slarg232 wrote:

Which raises a thought experiment; what if a company were to surface that just made the rules, and only had a very limited model range? Instead of units/armies, players in this game use the almost DnD character creation rules to create a custom character with custom skills/equipment. They then, after making their perfect character, can print off (Or pay someone to print off) a model for them that exactly represents their chosen avatar.

There are already alot of great games that are rules without miniatures or with a limited miniature range which allow you to stat up custom characters. It's not been joined officially with something like heroforge, but when the price of high-quality 3d minis comes down it will be feasible. I think it would work really well with a game like Song of Blades and Heroes in which many warbands consist of less than 10 figures and you have complete control over the stats and special abilities of your warband. Perhaps Goalsystem delves which I think has even fewer.

It's not there yet, but it will be within the decade.

 agnosto wrote:

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:
Also for consideration that making a model is quite a bit easier than making a book.

It's not, but since it seems to be a subject you're only passingly familiar with, the ignorance is forgivable.

For example, your concluding paragraph about how people could easily get a 'perfect avatar of their character' is completely missing how much work that would entail. Either the company that makes that game invests a substantial amount of time and effort into putting together a character creation program that allows a player to put together their character, AND and those myriad options are compatible for being printed out, no matter what combination they're used in, or it's reliant on knowing someone who understands 3D modeling well enough to do it for a friend.

That's something a lot of people crowing about how 3D printing will create this rush of awesome unique models for everyone seems to be overlooking. Making a knock-off generic 'marine' and sharing the template would be fairly easy, but getting from there to 'commander with this type of face, hair, iconography, and weapons load out' requires somebody with a great deal of modeling expertise to pull off.

You mean something like this?

https://www.heroforge.com/

Edit, google-fu turned up another:
http://www.imagine3dminiatures.com/en/


And yet another:
http://www.createyourminis.com/

Are you agreeing with him, or trying to make a counter argument?

Because checking out those sites seems to support his position. They offer a good amount of options, but cycling through the options shows you how they are standardized, and none of them really get into great detail. $25 for a warhammer level mini seems like a good deal, but when you start looking through all the options, you see what the limitations in design are.

 Kosake wrote:
I am absolutely sure there will be no shortage in high-quality models to print once the printers can actually keep up with what people can design. Have you seen what people do on dedicated pages for 3DSmax, Maya and so on? The problem is that with the current technology a 300$ printer just can not create the fine detail necessary for 28mm scale. That's only a matter of time, though. To the best of my knowledge there is no physical limitation reached so far. Just shell out enough cash and it will be possible. High-quality photo-ink printers can produce miniatures good enough for our purpose (it's just that the custom ink costs in the range of 1000$ per kg).

So really, once 3D printing picks up some more quality (and we are not far away from that point), expect to see completely custom armies. Hell, I'm sure there will be guys who wont have a single duplicate miniature in their whole IG regiment.

As to the question, how companies can work in such an environment: simple. Just sell 3D files and the rules. I would imagine that a lot of people would participate in competitions along the lines of "design the next chapter master miniature and win 100 bucks!"
Seeing the current trend, i'd expect gee-dubs to demand higher prices for 3D files than other companies would charge for plastic models, so that'd probably not work for GW. Big surprise there.

In fact, yes, I have seen what people can do with 3ds Max and Maya, as I posted my own work with Maya and Mudbox here on Dakka for some miniatures I am doing for Middle-earth (obviously not "official," at least not yet). I have roughly 20 Orcs/Goblins I have done so far, as well as the base-meshes for humans and elves (as yet no clothing, armor, or weapons added to the latter), which I have posted here in WIP threads.

And, from having worked in 3D prototyping for so long, I am going to be printing these as masters to be cast in white-metal (eventually I may try my hand at sculpting for plastics, but the constraints on undercuts I find to be hard to deal with - simple lack of experience).

Which is why I have been so vocal about 3D not being a threat to manufacturing for some time to come.

It is a threat to sculptors, who will find it harder to compete against 3D modelers, who can often produce models much faster than can a sculptor working in physical media (at least if the modeler has a fully prepared set of base-meshes, stamps, and stencils - I currently don't, at least not for miniatures. Ask me to do an architrave, lintel, or bannister for a house, and I can get it done in a couple of hours. All my stamps and stencils, or most of them, are for architectural components, and not for miniatures)

MB

A lot depends on how the software advances more than the tech at the moment, Its not going to take off on a large scale until easy to use programs are around to make it more accessible to the mainstream.
It will come eventually.

 Bookwrack wrote:

Are you agreeing with him, or trying to make a counter argument?

Because checking out those sites seems to support his position. They offer a good amount of options, but cycling through the options shows you how they are standardized, and none of them really get into great detail. $25 for a warhammer level mini seems like a good deal, but when you start looking through all the options, you see what the limitations in design are.

While these systems are limited, they are also very new; hero-forge in particular allows you to change facial expressions to an extent and with bit of modding once you receive the model, you can cut arms and legs to create a whole variety of poses, etc. My point, it's possible and while the concept is not exactly in it's infancy, it's not as mature as "infinite combinations", though it does allow for a great variety.

The way things are now, you would use this system to create a generic base model that is posed in such a way as to facilitate cutting arms, legs and head; you could then create a mold and cast your own army in resin very easily with this template miniature as the master (the technology is known for its ability to do rapid prototyping). Or just use it as it is designed, to make character models.

My idea would be to make a blank, as I detailed above, use a bit of greenstuff to model different facial characteristics and/or clothing/equipment and then cast your own army OR you could make the blank and then use readily available bits had online to add variety. These models are a fairly standard size after all..

If I had the time, I'd do something like that just for giggles because it seems so interesting. You could potentially drop about $75-$100 in materials and 3d prints and have all the infantry you'll ever need.

 Rayvon wrote:
A lot depends on how the software advances more than the tech at the moment, Its not going to take off on a large scale until easy to use programs are around to make it more accessible to the mainstream.
It will come eventually.

It will come, but it will not be the bottleneck. You only need a dozen or so artists worldwide that decide to throw their designs for free into the net. Cue explosion of slightly-to-heavily modified versions for everyone to use. Take a look at the Garrin-Collection on any torrent-dispenser you frequent. And that's only one dude. Even before easy 3D-modelling will become a thing you'll have plenty of stuff to choose from. That will satisfy most users for the time being.

 Slarg232 wrote:
Also for consideration that making a model is quite a bit easier than making a book.

Ummm no.

People have been gluing, drilling, and stitching pages for centuries. Anyone with patience, and an artistic flair, can make an attractive book.

3D modelling an attractive model is not easy.
Building a 3D printer kit is not easy.
Buying a ready made high end 3D printer is out of the price range of most people.
Getting a 3D model you found on the interenet to print properly is not always easy.
Sanding your printed model, without destroying the detail, not always easy.

10 years from now, the whole process will probably be point and click, but by then they will have figured out some ridiculous DRM tool to prevent IP infiringement.

 adamsouza wrote:
10 years from now, the whole process will probably be point and click, but by then they will have figured out some ridiculous DRM tool to prevent IP infiringement.

I have yet to witness a single successfull way to prevent piracy of any kind that does not bite the company right back into it's flabby buttcheeks.
Music? Haven't even heard about a successfull protection mechanism.
Movies? Same here.
Games? Either you provide a decent platform for your game that actually works and makes having an original copy enjoyable (think steam, battle.net, GOG, GMG,...) or your malfuntioning overzealous DRM mechanism drives your customers off (EA had to remove the installation limit on RA3, Ubisoft got a horrible reputation (and their games were pirated even more because playing the game cracked was preferable to having to put up with whatever bastard offspring of starforce they used).

And even if by some miracle 3D files will have some sort of working, unremovable DRM protection - what about models you design for yourself or get from other artists on the web? Yeah, you may not be able to print the original GW(R) Rhino Phobos Pattern(TM)(C), but someone's custom-made Awesomus Pattern might look much better to begin with (considering the Taurox and the orkonauts and that SW flyer, making better desings than GW doesn't seem to be that difficult).