Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can a Contemptor/Deredeo Dreadnought ride in a FA Drop Pod? While a Drop Pod cannot be selected as the Dedicated Transport for a Contemptor Dreadnought, the Drop Pod's rules do say that one Dreadnought of any type can be embarked on one. Same goes for a Stormraven.

They're both Dreadnoughts of a type, and thus fall within the definition of "Dreadnoughts of any type" so should pretty clearly qualify as per the rules.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
They're both Dreadnoughts of a type, and thus fall within the definition of "Dreadnoughts of any type" so should pretty clearly qualify as per the rules.

It seems pretty straightforward, and yet there is already at least one vote in the No column. Then again, if a Contemptor or Deredeo cannot ride in a FA Drop Pod or Stormraven, neither can a Furioso, Librarian, or Death Company Dreadnought since they would not meet the criteria for embarking (in spite of the fact that they can select a Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport).

It would be useful if the "no" could state reasons why

They are a dreadnought of "any" type.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It would be useful if the "no" could state reasons why

They are a dreadnought of "any" type.

Indeed. If the Contemptor and Deredeo aren't Dreadnoughts of "any type", what the hell are they? If they aren't, does that mean that Librarian, Furioso, and Death Company Dreadnoughts as well as Cassor the Damned are not? Is this another case of the Command Squad conundrum*?

*Command Squads can take Bikes as well as a Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport. If they do, they cannot embark on the Drop Pod that is their Dedicated Transport. But, since the Drop Pod is a Dedicated Transport, it can't have anything else embarked on it so...Riderless Drop Pod.

I really think you're overcomplicating this; it's very straightforward.

Clearly both Contemptor Dreadnoughts and Deredeo Dreadnoughts are dreadnoughts of their named type, just as Furioso and Librarian type dreadnoughts.

It would be redundant to state, "one Dreadnought of any type" if it actually meant "one Dreadnought of the standard type"

In 30k all dreadnoughts can only take Dreadnought Drop Pods, and their entry specifically says they can carry Contemptors.

beast_gts wrote:
In 30k all dreadnoughts can only take Dreadnought Drop Pods, and their entry specifically says they can carry Contemptors.

I am not talking about Dreadnought Drop Pods, just regular old Space Marine Drop Pods. Blood Angels and Space Wolves can take Space Marine Drop Pods as Fast Attack, and Space Marine Drop Pods can embark "one dreadnought of any type". The question is, can they embark a Contemptor, in spite of the fact Contemptors can only take Dreadnought Drop Pods as a Dedicated Transport.

And the answer is, of course, yes. they are aDreadnought, of type "contemptor", and thus can embark as they meet the requirements of being "any type" of dreadnought

There is no possible rules argument otherwise.

My personal opinion is that the rules are unclear, and I've seen tournaments & house rules go both ways.

If a Contemptor is considered to be a Dreadnought, why does the Dreadnought Pod specifically mention them?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And the answer is, of course, yes. they are aDreadnought, of type "contemptor", and thus can embark as they meet the requirements of being "any type" of dreadnought

There is no possible rules argument otherwise.

I kinda figured so, I couldn't find any rules to the contrary, but I figured I would double check. This might be a cheap $/£/€ way to get a Contemptor in a Drop Pod. Yes, it takes up a FA slot, but there are worse options for the monetarily challenged.

beast_gts wrote:
My personal opinion is that the rules are unclear, and I've seen tournaments & house rules go both ways.

If a Contemptor is considered to be a Dreadnought, why does the Dreadnought Pod specifically mention them?

Is the Contemptor Dreadnought a type of Dreadnought? By definition, yes.

Tournament houserules are of no concern

beast_gts wrote:
My personal opinion is that the rules are unclear, and I've seen tournaments & house rules go both ways.

If a Contemptor is considered to be a Dreadnought, why does the Dreadnought Pod specifically mention them?

Sheer curiosity, but in what way are the rules unclear?

We're told a Drop Pod has a transport capacity that allows one Dreadnought of any type. Is a Contemptor Dreadnought not a Dreadnought of the type 'Contemptor'? If not, then accordingly both Furioso and Librarian Dreadnoughts may not be transported by Fast Attack Drop Pods, nor Venerable or Ironclad Dreadnoughts.

Are you suggesting that clearly only Dreadnoughts of the standard type (relative to it being somehow unclear for non-standard Dreadnoughts) may be transported, despite the rule saying, "one Dreadnought of any type."

 Mr. Shine wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
My personal opinion is that the rules are unclear, and I've seen tournaments & house rules go both ways.

If a Contemptor is considered to be a Dreadnought, why does the Dreadnought Pod specifically mention them?

Sheer curiosity, but in what way are the rules unclear?

We're told a Drop Pod has a transport capacity that allows one Dreadnought of any type. Is a Contemptor Dreadnought not a Dreadnought of the type 'Contemptor'? If not, then accordingly both Furioso and Librarian Dreadnoughts may not be transported by Fast Attack Drop Pods, nor Venerable or Ironclad Dreadnoughts.

Are you suggesting that clearly only Dreadnoughts of the standard type (relative to it being somehow unclear for non-standard Dreadnoughts) may be transported, despite the rule saying, "one Dreadnought of any type."

It's the assumption that the "of any type" permission crosses books. Any dreadnought from Codex: Blood Angels is fine, but in Imperial Armour 2 (the book with Contemptors in) they are only allowed Dreadnought Drop Pods. Do you assume that C:BA overrules IA2, and they can OR that it would be listed as an option in IA if they could? (And fluffwise the Contemptor Dreadnought is larger than the 'normal' Castraferrum Dreadnought, and the Deredeo is larger/bulkier again.)

The fact that 'normal' Dreadnoughts in IA2 (Chaplain & MK V, for example) can only take Dreadnought Drop Pods makes me think C:BA probably does overrule IA, but not everyone sees it that way.

beast_gts wrote:
It's the assumption that the "of any type" permission crosses books. Any dreadnought from Codex: Blood Angels is fine, but in Imperial Armour 2 (the book with Contemptors in) they are only allowed Dreadnought Drop Pods. Do you assume that C:BA overrules IA2, and they can OR that it would be listed as an option in IA if they could? (And fluffwise the Contemptor Dreadnought is larger than the 'normal' Castraferrum Dreadnought, and the Deredeo is larger/bulkier again.)

The fact that 'normal' Dreadnoughts in IA2 (Chaplain & MK V, for example) can only take Dreadnought Drop Pods makes me think C:BA probably does overrule IA, but not everyone sees it that way.

Rules crossing books is where we're at now, with the way formations and detachments work. By that reasoning, would I then not be able to transport a Codex: Space Marines Ironclad Dreadnought in an allied Codex: Blood Angels Drop Pod selected as a Fast Attack choice because it crosses books?

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Rules crossing books is where we're at now, with the way formations and detachments work.

Yes, but not everyone is there yet I played a game tonight against a joint Militarum Tempestus / Space Wolves force, with Scions in Wolf Drop Pods. People are frequently shocked by that, and say it's not allowed.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
By that reasoning, would I then not be able to transport a Codex: Space Marines Ironclad Dreadnought in an allied Codex: Blood Angels Drop Pod selected as a Fast Attack choice because it crosses books?

On one hand no, as the Ironclad isn't in C:BA, but on the other yes as it has specific permission in its own codex to take one. The annoying thing is that it would take a single line FAQ from Forgeworld to clarify, but the only response I've got from them is "We at Forge World encourage the use of “house rules” by this we mean if a rule is unclear or may have multiple meanings or indeed different meanings to different people, we would say use the time old tradition of a 4+ rolloff or what we prefer more is to follow the theme and storyline of what would happen if the battle were a real conflict."

beast_gts wrote:
Yes, but not everyone is there yet I played a game tonight against a joint Militarum Tempestus / Space Wolves force, with Scions in Wolf Drop Pods. People are frequently shocked by that, and say it's not allowed.

It sounds like (without intending to come across as rude!) they need to read the rules on Battle Brothers as allies more closely:

"This means, for example, that units:
...
-Can embark on each other's Transport vehicles."

On one hand no, as the Ironclad isn't in C:BA, but on the other yes as it has specific permission in its own codex to take one. The annoying thing is that it would take a single line FAQ from Forgeworld to clarify, but the only response I've got from them is "We at Forge World encourage the use of “house rules” by this we mean if a rule is unclear or may have multiple meanings or indeed different meanings to different people, we would say use the time old tradition of a 4+ rolloff or what we prefer more is to follow the theme and storyline of what would happen if the battle were a real conflict."

Seeing above, we see that Battle Brothers have specific permission to embark on each other's transport vehicles, so doesn't it also have general permission to embark upon a Battle Brother ally's transport vehicles where transport capacity allows?

The Contemptor/Deredeo situation is even less complicated than that, as we're specifically told they are available as choices in Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels and Dark Angels armies. This means that they are, for all intents and purposes, a unit of the detachment faction in question

It's a transport issue rather than an allies issue - transports can only normally carry Infantry but Drop Pods have a specific exception allowing them to carry Dreadnoughts. If they are allowed to carry all types of Dreadnought why is it specifically Dreadnought rather than walker (and why doesn't the Contemptor have a normal pod as an option in IA2)?

beast_gts wrote:
It's a transport issue rather than an allies issue - transports can only normally carry Infantry but Drop Pods have a specific exception allowing them to carry Dreadnoughts. If they are allowed to carry all types of Dreadnought why is it specifically Dreadnought rather than walker (and why doesn't the Contemptor have a normal pod as an option in IA2)?

It's likely "one Dreadnought of any type" rather than "one walker" because they don't want Astra Militarum Sentinels, Skitarii Sydonian Dragoons and Ironstrider Ballistarii, Adepta Sororitas Penitent Engines and any other Battle Brothers' non-Dreadnought walkers to embark upon them, but we don't really need to concern ourselves with why (unless we really want to) the rules say something when it's clear that quite simply in fact that they do say it.

beast_gts wrote:
It's a transport issue rather than an allies issue - transports can only normally carry Infantry but Drop Pods have a specific exception allowing them to carry Dreadnoughts. If they are allowed to carry all types of Dreadnought why is it specifically Dreadnought rather than walker (and why doesn't the Contemptor have a normal pod as an option in IA2)?

Why should it have to?

You are taking permission (to take a dreadnought pod) and turning it into a restriction - nowhere in IA2 does it state they may *only* embark on Dreadnought Drop pods

You have permission in IA2 to put them in dreadnought droppods as dedicated transports. This has a number of advantages BUT an increased cost in points.
You have permission, from the FA choice drop pods, to embark a Dreadnought of "any type" on one. This has a cheaper cost, but "costs" a FA slot.

For your argument to have any water, you have to prove that a contemptor IS NOT a "dreadnought of any type", AND you must prove that the IA2 book has a specific restriction disallowing contemptors from embarking in any vehicle.

Fluff is utterly inconsequential here.

Fluff has equalled rules when the fluff effects the rules since 5th(grey knights and "daemons", avatar and "flamer weapons", "plasma weapons" and the siphon counting pulse weapons).

Orks auto-winning because "orcs nevah lose" is a false argument against it, but a "dread of any type" counting derredos and contemptors is exactly the situation where fluff equals rules(otherwise murderfang cannot ride un the pod he can buy as an option, and neither can ironclad dreads from the basic marine codex).

As per raw I could put my manowar dwarf dreadnought in the bleeding pod, ANY type is as straight forward as you get

And the manowar dwarf dreadnaught is from what 40k codex?