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Saw this picture on another thread. Looks epic as. The armor on the marine looks reasonable and he isn't giant. It just looks awesome.

I hear about how in the old fluff Space Marines used to be convicts?

I am not really a fan of the God Like Space Marines we have today and was wondering just how much has changed since the beginning? IS there a place that details how the Space marine fluff has changed over time?

I think that might be intended to be a member of the Adeptus Arbites (space police). They're usually depicted in Judge Dredd-esque armor, but he's fighting gangers and his pauldron says "Necromunda," so maybe it's from the game of the same name.

You'd really be best trying to find a copy of the original Rogue Trader rulebook.

originally they're far closer to something like the Sardakaur from Dune than what they are today in terms of recruitment (which would include convicts and gang members), and much more Judge Dredd (as in the picture above) with regards to how they operated and looked. This also reflected in their stats, originally being T3 with a 4+ power armor save (reduced to a mere 5+ against Lasgun fire). They really were more akin to something like IG Stormtroopers or Skitarii.

Over time they morphed more into what you'd recognize today, but it took a few years.

Look at that bitchin' left gauntlet though.

Pimpin' like that ain't easy.

 Vaktathi wrote:
You'd really be best trying to find a copy of the original Rogue Trader rulebook.

originally they're far closer to something like the Sardakaur from Dune than what they are today in terms of recruitment (which would include convicts and gang members), and much more Judge Dredd (as in the picture above) with regards to how they operated and looked. This also reflected in their stats, originally being T3 with a 4+ power armor save (reduced to a mere 5+ against Lasgun fire). They really were more akin to something like IG Stormtroopers or Skitarii.

Over time they morphed more into what you'd recognize today, but it took a few years.

Yea that to me sounds really cool.

I may just look for that.

 j31c3n wrote:
I think that might be intended to be a member of the Adeptus Arbites (space police). They're usually depicted in Judge Dredd-esque armor, but he's fighting gangers and his pauldron says "Necromunda," so maybe it's from the game of the same name.

I remember the Arbites from Necromunda (my main gang) but they dont quiet look like this. I have seen pictures of Space marines subduing roiters against a wall, so maybe old Marines used to crowd control as well?

I hate this picture. The Marine's armour clashes with the rest of the image because it looks so flat and textureless, while the head looks copy-pasted on from another image due to the angle its set at and completely different art style (which matches the rest of the picture, not his armour).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I hate this picture. The Marine's armour clashes with the rest of the image because it looks so flat and textureless, while the head looks copy-pasted on from another image due to the angle its set at and completely different art style (which matches the rest of the picture, not his armour).

I agree. The armour he is wearing and the angle of the shot also makes his head look huge.

As for new versus old:

The picture in OP looks like a caricature next to new stuff.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I hate this picture. The Marine's armour clashes with the rest of the image because it looks so flat and textureless, while the head looks copy-pasted on from another image due to the angle its set at and completely different art style (which matches the rest of the picture, not his armour).

I agree. The armour he is wearing and the angle of the shot also makes his head look huge.

As for new versus old:

The picture in OP looks like a caricature next to new stuff.

Spoiler:

See that looks like an "edgy" cartoon bad guy. I suppose it matches the luff too. Especially the huge shoulder pads and legs that can't stand properly (hence why they are always legs apart). Just looks silly really.

The scene in the OP is one you are more likely to see in a more "real" universe. One of the gangers even has some musket type weapon, probably something home made.

The picture above looks more like a real dystopian future too.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Just looks silly really.

First Edition Space Marines are among the silliest things I have seen in sci-fi, only matched by other early 40k things (like Tyranids).

Modern Marines at least look the part. Old Marines look comedic.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Just looks silly really.

First Edition Space Marines are among the silliest things I have seen in sci-fi, only matched by other early 40k things (like Tyranids).

Modern Marines at least look the part. Old Marines look comedic.

Yea, chunky candy colour soldiers that stand on any hill they can find to die aren't comedic haha

Anyway my original question was if there was a place to find marine fluff that changed over time.

Modern marines kinda look goofy too... fact is, Space Marine armour just looks dumb no matter what era you paint it in, except maybe that brief period around late second/early third edition where they took the newer models and gave them an older style that managed to create a more naturalistic look;

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Just looks silly really.

First Edition Space Marines are among the silliest things I have seen in sci-fi, only matched by other early 40k things (like Tyranids).

Modern Marines at least look the part. Old Marines look comedic.

I agree. Nostalgia goggles is an affliction. No company will draw their art the way they drew space marines in the 80s for good reason. Everything else blends in, but the space marine looks like a sticker pasted over some guy that was supposed to be there. If you find him cool, then play guard, because he looks roughly as armoured as a guardsman.

Also, silly situations can be found in the first one. One is pointing his gun away from the marine, and pointing his finger at him at point blank range. Shotgun guy and all the others are also at point blank. Guy who is shot is facing away from the marine, with his back to the concrete. The grimdark style of the background is cool though.

Current marines look extremely impressive, like walking tanks, but I find it hard to believe they can move in that armour. Their legs must only reach up to the shins of their armour, and their hands up to the wrists. The place the knees are placed seems like their femur will break when they walk. Rule of cool has always been the #1 rule in 40k though.

Agreed that the old 3rd/4th ed stuff has the best balance of cool VS realism.

The fluff changed in 2nd edition IIRC. In 1st edition (Called rouge trader), they had that eldar-marine librarian floating around. Their marines also rotated across chapters, and had postings. You could mix around eldar pirates and space marines in the same army. Rainbow marines were still around then. things became much darker in 2nd, with breaking up of all armies to individual factions, and where all the modern day fluff of gene-manipulated super soldiers come from. Much of the imperium fluff comes from second.

Things turned even darker in 3rd by making everything ancient and obscure. Something as simple as a powersword was lost technology in the fluff. Everything is decaying, and supplies were minimal. I think land raiders couldn't even be produced by any forgeworld other than mars, and one other one. The end of the universe really felt like a minute away then, decay both within and without. I think 3rd was the grimmest and darkest, before picking up in 4th with new technology, and culminating in the current 7th with weapons and supplies bristling in every army.

Again with the faux-nostalgia glasses for 2nd. Most who call for 2nd to be reinstated probably was never around, and just want to be "old-skool cool" I don't miss void grenades, insanely powerful vehicles and uber characters. The rest of the army didn't matter, your fully kitted out autarch or void grenade monkey mattered more than anything else. Psychic phase was horrible, and there was a lot of randomness. Even 3rd is starting to become old-skool cool. I don't miss eldar cheesemongers maxing out on starcannons and tabling everyone. That explains the history of eldar hate to the cheesemongers jumping on the latest edition of muh tacticool elfdarz, they've been overpowered from the very inception of 40k. No one jumped on when they were "tactical", they were an army which you never needed much, or any skill to use at all.

kburn wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Just looks silly really.

First Edition Space Marines are among the silliest things I have seen in sci-fi, only matched by other early 40k things (like Tyranids).

Modern Marines at least look the part. Old Marines look comedic.

I agree. Nostalgia goggles is an affliction. No company will draw their art the way they drew space marines in the 80s for good reason. Everything else blends in, but the space marine looks like a sticker pasted over some guy that was supposed to be there. If you find him cool, then play guard, because he looks roughly as armoured as a guardsman.

Also, silly situations can be found in the first one. One is pointing his gun away from the marine, and pointing his finger at him at point blank range. Shotgun guy and all the others are also at point blank. Guy who is shot is facing away from the marine, with his back to the concrete. The grimdark style of the background is cool though.

Current marines look extremely impressive, like walking tanks, but I find it hard to believe they can move in that armour. Their legs must only reach up to the shins of their armour, and their hands up to the wrists. The place the knees are placed seems like their femur will break when they walk. Rule of cool has always been the #1 rule in 40k though.

Agreed that the old 3rd/4th ed stuff has the best balance of cool VS realism.

The fluff changed in 2nd edition IIRC. In 1st edition (Called rouge trader), they had that eldar-marine librarian floating around. Their marines also rotated across chapters, and had postings. You could mix around eldar pirates and space marines in the same army. Rainbow marines were still around then. things became much darker in 2nd, with breaking up of all armies to individual factions, and where all the modern day fluff of gene-manipulated super soldiers come from. Much of the imperium fluff comes from second.

Things turned even darker in 3rd by making everything ancient and obscure. Something as simple as a powersword was lost technology in the fluff. Everything is decaying, and supplies were minimal. I think land raiders couldn't even be produced by any forgeworld other than mars, and one other one. The end of the universe really felt like a minute away then, decay both within and without. I think 3rd was the grimmest and darkest, before picking up in 4th with new technology, and culminating in the current 7th with weapons and supplies bristling in every army.

Again with the faux-nostalgia glasses for 2nd. Most who call for 2nd to be reinstated probably was never around, and just want to be "old-skool cool" I don't miss void grenades, insanely powerful vehicles and uber characters. The rest of the army didn't matter, your fully kitted out autarch or void grenade monkey mattered more than anything else. Psychic phase was horrible, and there was a lot of randomness. Even 3rd is starting to become old-skool cool. I don't miss eldar cheesemongers maxing out on starcannons and tabling everyone. That explains the history of eldar hate to the cheesemongers jumping on the latest edition of muh tacticool elfdarz, they've been overpowered from the very inception of 40k. No one jumped on when they were "tactical", they were an army which you never needed much, or any skill to use at all.

The picture clearly shows someone having been shot (guy on ground) and some gangers happen to be close by when the astartes has come to see whats up. Amid confusion the Marine decided he will simply start shooting. When he decided to shoot everyone is now off guard and has to react to the new situation. Thats how I see it. Its better than seeing current marines in a huge horde fighting another army at point blank range, now that is stupid.The picture looks like what you are likely to see in the history books (with a little exaggeration).

I care not for the rules of the time, since I started in 4th edition. I happen to find 3rd edition my favorite for fluff for Guard and Eldar but havent read anything further.

I simply like what I have heard of the old fluff for marines.

 Swastakowey wrote:


The picture clearly shows someone having been shot (guy on ground) and some gangers happen to be close by when the astartes has come to see whats up. Amid confusion the Marine decided he will simply start shooting. When he decided to shoot everyone is now off guard and has to react to the new situation. Thats how I see it. Its better than seeing current marines in a huge horde fighting another army at point blank range, now that is stupid.The picture looks like what you are likely to see in the history books (with a little exaggeration).

I care not for the rules of the time, since I started in 4th edition. I happen to find 3rd edition my favorite for fluff for Guard and Eldar but havent read anything further.

I simply like what I have heard of the old fluff for marines.

Eh, fluff for marines are pretty different across all 3 editions. IIRC:

For first, it likely mirrors the picture you posted. That should have come 1st/early 2nd, where space marines did patrols, policing, rotations, etc. A little bit dystopian, sort of like judge dredd like someone said earlier, but more similar to today's world. Don't think they were gene-manipulated giants then. More like policemen romping through a dangerous universe. It was dystopian, but not apocalyptic. I think it sorts of mirrors the feel of that day, like in shadowrun and battletech.

In 2nd, they had access to all sorts of funky weapons, and the feel was more retro-futuristic, and not so much the 1 min to midnight of 3rd. Imperium was gothic, but still functioning. The whole atmosphere is actually really similar to the fluff now.

3rd was the grimmest. Everything doesn't work anymore. Chapters have relics they worship but don't know how to use. The imperium is rotten to the core, and nothing functions. Corruption is rampant, and mutation everywhere. Communication is very poor. Most used bolters, because there's nothing else available. Everything is scarce and rare. The "organisation matrix" of marines with 2nd to 5th(?) companies being nothing but tacticals stemmed from this era, as every chapter was too poor in the armoury. Any equipment losses are written off and never replaced.

Fluff for 3rd is minimal, but everything you read was how depressing and terrible the situation was. Battles are either losses, or phyrric victories, where manpower and equipment can never be replaced, leading to the chapter's doom. I sort of miss the fluff in 3rd, but the current model range and options would never reflect the depressing fluff of 3rd.

A certain website hinted that a big name warhammer guy wrote a piece about a certain Chapter being the biggest con's in the galaxy. Apparently the Battle for Macragge didn't turn out as well as we were lead to believe...

It must be Rogue Trader because in 2nd I remember marines being how they are today. All the primarchs and genetic enhancements were in second etc.

The painting in the OP would have been the cover art for Confrontation if that game had progressed beyond half a dozen White Dwarf articles (as it happens, Necromunda re-used the setting and the idea of post-apocalyptic gang fights in the unerhive, and Inquisitor made off with the combat system).

That Space marine is a Blood Angel from the Marine base halfway up the Palatine Hive. What's he doing in the Hive City? Who knows. Whatever he's doing, he's not taking any nonsense from a bunch of scavvies. While Confrontation was supposed to cover gangs fighting in the hive city, it still included rules for just about every weapon in 40k at the time, inclulding shuriken catapults, conversion beamers and power armour.

As for Space Marines, originally they were recruited from populations more likely to have self-sufficient, violent youngsters - feral worlds, medieval worlds mostly, but they also kept an eye on the law courts of more civilised worlds in case a likely candidate showed up there. Sometimes they were too late, as the prospective Marine had already gone to the gallows.

As another example of silliness, the Space Wolves entire background (at this point, they came from Lucan, not Fenris) was a setup to a "Lord Lucan" pun, and the Ultramarines chapter master was an ex-Tyranid slave and their chief Librarian was a half Eldar Astropath from Badab.

The Rogue* Trader rulebook introduced the Eye of Terror as an area mostly cut off by warp storms, but occasionally accessible, when the Imperium turns up to enforce their law for a short time. That section had a picture of two power armoured soldiers shaking down some puns for graffitiing. However, in RT, there was nothing special about Space Marine powered armour; other humans could be seen wearing the same suits (including the two renegades drinking in a bar).

The stuff about surgical implantation of extra organs was introduced quite early, and the idea of the Primarchs as founders of the Chapters wasn't much later (certainly by the time of 1st edition Space Marine and the Realm of Chaos books). The different Chapters' characters were mostly defined by the fiction authors; Bill King invented the wolf-vikings concept for the Space Wolves and also the cod-Native American background for the Dark Angels which sadly didn't last. Ian Watson's Space Marine (the novel, not the Epic game, which has the misfortune to be declared non-canon) defined the Imperial Fists - the Chapter's senior officers, their Germanic culture and penchant for meticulous planning and the Phalanx itself (although the mobile Fortress-Monastery was never named in the novel) as well as them being the Chapter with links to Necromunda (ousting the Blood Angels).

Details have changed over the years; According to the Space Marine Painting Guide (included in the Space Marine Paint Set from 1989), Ultramarines were fond of non-prescribed slogans, war-cries and kill markings, while the Space Wolves were famous for their adherence to the Index Astartes ( ), while the Space Marine army list for Epic broke the Chapter specialities down as follows; Blood Angels were more biased towards close assault, Space Wolves were proponents of the mass orbital drop, Ultramarines had more heavy and super-heavy equipment and Dark Angels had three specialist battalions; the Death Wing and Raven Wing were pretty much as they are now, but there was also the Iron Wing which was a massed armour formation.



Same goes for colours; The Space Wolves' blue-grey has become slightly more blue over the years, the precise shade of Ultramarines blue has varied, infamously the Dark Angels went from black to dark green (although this was quite early on; by the time Epic Space Marine was released, they were green) and the Blood Angels have gone from terracotta to bright orange-red to a flatter red and the Salamanders have gone from having a wavy yellow/black two-tone scheme to being dark green to a much brighter green. You can see the last vestiges of the original colour scheme in the lieutenant commander's livery in the picture above.

It's also interesting how much of the background came from battle reports; Captain Tycho's backstory arose from an early 2nd edition report where he was "killed" by an Ork Weirdboy and Calgar being blown up by a Spore Mine also made it into the background.

*Not "Rouge", for crying out loud.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I hate this picture. The Marine's armour clashes with the rest of the image because it looks so flat and textureless, while the head looks copy-pasted on from another image due to the angle its set at and completely different art style (which matches the rest of the picture, not his armour).

I agree. The armour he is wearing and the angle of the shot also makes his head look huge.

As for new versus old:

The picture in OP looks like a caricature next to new stuff.

Eh, some people prefer traditional art to CG.

Those legion marines look awful, rest is pretty good though. However the old art has so much character to it.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Modern marines kinda look goofy too... fact is, Space Marine armour just looks dumb no matter what era you paint it in, except maybe that brief period around late second/early third edition where they took the newer models and gave them an older style that managed to create a more naturalistic look;

Spoiler:

3rd edition was best edition. You ever see the art in that rulebook? Its so bad, yet so good. New 40k is garbage compared to that

Track down a copy of Space Marine by Ian Watson.

It follows a trio (I think, been a long time, group certainly) of initiates into the Imperial Fists through their training as Scouts and ultimately to their ascension to full Battle Brothers.

Some proper grim dark in there which has been filtered out of modern 40K (for instance, the Fists have a habit of flensing the flesh from their hand, scrimshawing the names of fallen brothers etc onto their bones then having artificial flesh re grown over the top, and the use of "pain gloves" to purify their spirits) and it is written somewhere around the time that Marines were beginning to take shape into what we would recognise today, rather than the somewhat incongruous RT incarnation.

Actually,

Forge World left a nod to the book on their brass etch Imperial Fists sprue; one of the medium round emblems is labelled "Lexandro".

Plus, it's always funny to discuss the book with peole who take 40k seriously - the deliberate homoerotic imagery, fart gags and coprophagy confuses and worries some people.

(below): fiar enough. I re-read it and Inquisitor reasonably regularly, because I think Ian Watson manages the decaying imagery of the Imperium excellently - from the aforementioned coprophagy, and the decay of flesh to ordure as a metaphor for tzeentch's focus on change, to the little things like hive cities being "boils" on the diseased skin of the world, or the Fits' armour being "pus-yellow".

Well, it's been about 23 years since I last read it, I'm impressed I got as close as I did!

 Ashiraya wrote:

Spoiler:

Why are they copy-pasting space marines column-riders? Is that a new 30k unit? How does the column move?

The marine was described as a Blood Angel in White Dwarf 137 (it was on the cover) but this always irked me because the emblem on his shoulder is an exact copy of the Blood DRINKERS chapter badge (also it was on a yellow field, yellow was the Blood Drinkers secondary colour, the Blood Angels secondary was black). The previous issue had Ultramarines 5th Company on the cover, but the index page said it was 9th IIRC, I think the editor resorted to guesswork a lot of the time.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Some proper grim dark in there which has been filtered out of modern 40K (for instance, the Fists have a habit of flensing the flesh from their hand, scrimshawing the names of fallen brothers etc onto their bones then having artificial flesh re grown over the top, and the use of "pain gloves" to purify their spirits)

Actually both the scrimshawing and the pain glove are in the Imperial Fists Index Astartes article.

kburn wrote:
3rd was the grimmest. Most used bolters, because there's nothing else available. Everything is scarce and rare. The "organisation matrix" of marines with 2nd to 5th(?) companies being nothing but tacticals stemmed from this era, as every chapter was too poor in the armoury. Any equipment losses are written off and never replaced.

Er, the 3rd edition TO&E was identical to 2nd. Ruleswise support weapons became *more* common in 3rd, and I don't recall any fluff that said the opposite.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This also reflected in their stats, originally being T3 with a 4+ power armor save (reduced to a mere 5+ against Lasgun fire). They really were more akin to something like IG Stormtroopers or Skitarii.

Fluffwise marines were always superhumans, the description in the RT rulebook was fairly non-specific, though the Black Carapace was mentioned. The 3rd edition Index Astartes article on marine physiology was mostly a word for word copy-paste of the article in WD98 (RT was released circa WD94). When marines were bumped up to T4 in WD129 it was specifically attributed to 'codex creep' rather than because the nature of marines had changed.

 Gashrog wrote:
The marine was described as a Blood Angel in White Dwarf 137 (it was on the cover) but this always irked me because the emblem on his shoulder is an exact copy of the Blood DRINKERS chapter badge (also it was on a yellow field, yellow was the Blood Drinkers secondary colour, the Blood Angels secondary was black). The previous issue had Ultramarines 5th Company on the cover, but the index page said it was 9th IIRC, I think the editor resorted to guesswork a lot of the time.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Some proper grim dark in there which has been filtered out of modern 40K (for instance, the Fists have a habit of flensing the flesh from their hand, scrimshawing the names of fallen brothers etc onto their bones then having artificial flesh re grown over the top, and the use of "pain gloves" to purify their spirits)

Actually both the scrimshawing and the pain glove are in the Imperial Fists Index Astartes article.

I wouldn't really characterise a more than a decade old source as "modern" 40K though, I'm pretty sure it won't be in the Codex next week!

 Gashrog wrote:

Actually both the scrimshawing and the pain glove are in the Imperial Fists Index Astartes article.

Space Marine was published in 1993. The relevant Index Astartes article appeared in White Dwarf 259, in 2001. Pretty much everything about the Imperial Fists other than their name, symbol, colour and Primarch was first introduced in that novel.

They certainly were not the superhuman soldiers they are today. They were merely post-human transhuman, stronger and faster then your average human, but still constraint by human potentials. And they did have black carapace, the purpose of which (I believe) is expanded upon in following WD publications and later included into Warhammer 40,000: Compendium.

 Azreal13 wrote:

I wouldn't really characterise a more than a decade old source as "modern" 40K though, I'm pretty sure it won't be in the Codex next week!

It won't be in the Codex, but only because the Codex fluff sections don't delve that deep.

The 3rd Index Astartes series may be old, but they are current enough that Black Library is selling many of them (as well as some new) in ebook format for £3.49 a pop.

 lcmiracle wrote:
They certainly were not the superhuman soldiers they are today. They were merely post-human, stronger and faster then your average human, but still constraint by human potentials. And they did have black carapace, the purpose of which (I believe) is expanded upon in following WD publications and later included into Warhammer 40,000: Compendium.

Spoiler:

Man, can you believe the nerf they gave marines in WillPower lately? It's like it's nothing compared to RT.

 Purifier wrote:

Man, can you believe the nerf they gave marines in WillPower lately? It's like it's nothing compared to RT.

It’s all Cl, bro.

 Nevelon wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Man, can you believe the nerf they gave marines in WillPower lately? It's like it's nothing compared to RT.

It’s all Cl, bro.

I can't even figure out what that is. Charisma? Or is it CL? Clamminess?