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Apparently my SAG is the bane of all Eldar. Having used it in 3 back to back games against Eldar over the space of about a month; each time I roll Box Cars and fire off the Vortex shot and kill an immense amount of Eldar with it

This last game saw my opponent taking 2 WKs. SAG Fired and slaughtered both in a single shot and the following turns vortex movement which ate the WK and half a squad of Guardians who were poorly positioned. After that happened my opponent conceded the match to me, extremely angry at the fact that two WK's just died to a model costing less then 100pts :-P

3 Games now my SAG has been the best thing in the world. The Pure randomness of it reminds me of why I love orky armies so much

Well, the problem with the SAG is that it's equally likely to kill the model carrying it, and either result is a 1/36. Something that happens once every six games, if it gets to fire every turn, is just not very reliable.

It also has various other amusing but arguably harmful-for-the-user results, such as teleporting into melee with the target (with a Wraithknight? Ouch. It gets a free kill, and a free consolidate.)

Everyone crys so much about eldar but this is why I tell them its not so bad! Their D weapons are really squishy for their points. With my new nids I plan on dropping a large blast (pinning) then just slaughter them with gaunts

That's because the Decurion-style sucks. CAD is the correct way to really run Eldar, unless you need Wraithknights spammed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's because the Decurion-style sucks. CAD is the correct way to really run Eldar, unless you need Wraithknights spammed.

Quoted for truth. Rip 40k.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Everyone crys so much about eldar but this is why I tell them its not so bad! Their D weapons are really squishy for their points.

T6 3+sv Fearless models sporting D weapons at 32pts a piece is squishy?

I guess next to a Necron Wraith, sure. Relative to anything else? Hardly squishy.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Everyone crys so much about eldar but this is why I tell them its not so bad! Their D weapons are really squishy for their points.

T6 3+sv Fearless models sporting D weapons at 32pts a piece is squishy?

I guess next to a Necron Wraith, sure. Relative to anything else? Hardly squishy.

*fire any decent blast* damn shame you just lost a 210 point unit from a single blast!

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Everyone crys so much about eldar but this is why I tell them its not so bad! Their D weapons are really squishy for their points.

T6 3+sv Fearless models sporting D weapons at 32pts a piece is squishy?

I guess next to a Necron Wraith, sure. Relative to anything else? Hardly squishy.

*fire any decent blast* damn shame you just lost a 210 point unit from a single blast!

Assuming it hits, assuming it doesn't scatter, assuming it can hit everyone, assuming it's high enough strength to wound everything easily? That's relatively few weapons, and usually exactly the type of thing that you'd use those D weapons to destroy. (e.g. a Leman Russ tank).

Sure, yeah, if you land a Battlecannon shot on a clumped up group of Wraithguard in the open, but that goes for just about any infantry unit that isn't a Necron or a Terminator. Many other weapons aren't wounding WG on 2's, or are only small blast not large blast, etc.

And if the Eldar player positioned them poorly without neutralizing that threat or ensuring any sort of damage mitigation, then that's on the Eldar player's bad generalship, or an opponent shot them out of a transport before they could get into position and every army is going to feel that burn.

Stock wave serpent transport is 110 points ontop of that, so 310 points for a min squad of them. For their amount of points they are pretty squishy in the sense they dont have a FnP or an inv. save, any player with a proper list should be able to take out the WS, and if they get it turn one, that 210 point squad is almost useless.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Stock wave serpent transport is 110 points ontop of that, so 310 points for a min squad of them. For their amount of points they are pretty squishy in the sense they dont have a FnP or an inv. save, any player with a proper list should be able to take out the WS, and if they get it turn one, that 210 point squad is almost useless.

The Wave Serpent has value of its own (not insubstantial value at that), can independently move and engage the enemy, and must be separately engaged by your opponent. Simply adding its cost into the units while only considering the utility of the infantry is a poor evaluation.

Sure, they don't have FNP or an Inv save. They do have T6, are Fearless, and can benefit from the best psychic support in the game, which can grant them things like invul saves or Invisibility or Shrouded.

As for being able to take out the WS turn 1, that's dubious. There's a lot of variables that go into that (LoS, how many long range AT guns an opponent is running, Jink saves, etc). However, yeah, if you only take one unit, expect it to get focus fired on. That goes for just about anything. If I'm running a Vendetta, I expect it to get focus-fired on and killed in short order, but if I'm running two or three, they perform way better. Wraithguard are no different

 Vaktathi wrote:
Assuming it hits, assuming it doesn't scatter, assuming it can hit everyone, assuming it's high enough strength to wound everything easily? That's relatively few weapons, and usually exactly the type of thing that you'd use those D weapons to destroy. (e.g. a Leman Russ tank).

Sure, yeah, if you land a Battlecannon shot on a clumped up group of Wraithguard in the open, but that goes for just about any infantry unit that isn't a Necron or a Terminator. Many other weapons aren't wounding WG on 2's, or are only small blast not large blast, etc.

And if the Eldar player positioned them poorly without neutralizing that threat or ensuring any sort of damage mitigation, then that's on the Eldar player's bad generalship, or an opponent shot them out of a transport before they could get into position and every army is going to feel that burn.

Most of those arguments can be turned around on the Wraithguard's targets, though... Same armor as a basic marine, same number of wounds, attacks, WS and BS as a basic marine. Wraithcannon's range is pretty meager.. They -can- be equipped for melee, but then give up the D completely.

And poor positioning/threat neutralizing/lack of damage mitigation/etc is not just a trait monopolized by eldar generals in hypothetical situations, either, and maybe the marine players bad generalship is often to blame, as well?. Hypothetically, a Wraithguard can destroy a Leman Russ. Hypothetically, what's the Russ doing so close to the Wraithguard? And 5 WG -should- have a decent chance of taking out the Russ, shouldn't they? Aren't they about the same number of points? (Forgive me - it's been awhile). With the Russ moving -away- from the WG and firing his main guns, how many WG would reach it, after how many turns of the WG not being able to shoot at all, all other things being equal?

Are Wraithguard squishy? Depends on what's shooting at them, like all models, really, but in general, T6 would seem to indicate they aren't THAT squishy, no. If it's just their eraser-gun that annoys you, ask your opponent to use the 6th ed rules for them. I'd be fine with it if I were playing you, as I would think most reasonable people would. (At least in non-tourny games). And the tourneys I've seen around my neck of the woods seems to use the previous chart, too.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Stock wave serpent transport is 110 points ontop of that, so 310 points for a min squad of them. For their amount of points they are pretty squishy in the sense they dont have a FnP or an inv. save, any player with a proper list should be able to take out the WS, and if they get it turn one, that 210 point squad is almost useless.

The Wave Serpent has value of its own (not insubstantial value at that), can independently move and engage the enemy, and must be separately engaged by your opponent. Simply adding its cost into the units while only considering the utility of the infantry is a poor evaluation.

Sure, they don't have FNP or an Inv save. They do have T6, are Fearless, and can benefit from the best psychic support in the game, which can grant them things like invul saves or Invisibility or Shrouded.

As for being able to take out the WS turn 1, that's dubious. There's a lot of variables that go into that (LoS, how many long range AT guns an opponent is running, Jink saves, etc). However, yeah, if you only take one unit, expect it to get focus fired on. That goes for just about anything. If I'm running a Vendetta, I expect it to get focus-fired on and killed in short order, but if I'm running two or three, they perform way better. Wraithguard are no different

Again, a lot of your arguments really go both ways.

WSs are AV12, and 3 glances will nail it. The shield lowers pens to glances - on a 2+. But so what? 3 glances - no more fast-moving WG.

The WG can benefit from psychic abilities... so can your IOM stuff. Or any army with psykers.

The WS weaponry, while not useless, isn't very awe-inspiring. Sure, it adds some value, but it also adds a lot of points,

And as I just learned tonight, it's actually very possible to take out a WS turn one... Marine drop pods are a nasty thing. Every counter you come up with, can be countered by something else. That's the way the game works, or so everyone keeps telling me.

'If you only take one unit, it will get focused on'... a 270 pt unit of 5 guys (or just over 300 if you want to fill up the WS to 6)... That's like ~15-20% of your points in an 'average' 1500-1850 pt game. Multiple units? Three? It becomes a good chunk of your army, a pretty sizable investment already.

WG aren't frightening BY THEMSELVES. It's when they're on the same table as 10 or 20 scatbikes, a Wraithknight, some Farseers, etc.

If you focus all of your fire trying to stop those WG, the WK will be in your ass and the Scat bikes will be quickly reducing your ability to retaliate.

It's the synergy of the over-powered units in the Eldar book that makes them so frightening.

 Mort wrote:


Most of those arguments can be turned around on the Wraithguard's targets, though... Same armor as a basic marine, same number of wounds, attacks, WS and BS as a basic marine. Wraithcannon's range is pretty meager.. They -can- be equipped for melee, but then give up the D completely.

sure, but playing off T6 and Fearless as being "mostly like a marine" is being disingenuous though unless we're talking S8 weapons. They are much hardier than marines against the overwhelmingly vast majority of weapons in the game. Not all, but most.

And poor positioning/threat neutralizing/lack of damage mitigation/etc is not just a trait monopolized by eldar generals in hypothetical situations

No, but Eldar have more control over that than probably any other army, and we're talking a unit that's typically used to destroy the very things that are a strong threat to it in the first place.

either, and maybe the marine players bad generalship is often to blame, as well?. Hypothetically, a Wraithguard can destroy a Leman Russ. Hypothetically, what's the Russ doing so close to the Wraithguard?

This I think is a rather silly counter, the Leman Russ can move 6" a turn, period, and probably started with its butt to the board edge or close to it, while Wraithguard in a transport can get just about anywhere on the board by turn 2, positioning in that case is in the hands of the Eldar player, not the Imperial Guard player.

And 5 WG -should- have a decent chance of taking out the Russ, shouldn't they?

I'm not arguing that. With the S10 guns they had before, they were rather effective at it, It just wasn't an auto-kill the way it is with D weapons, and the template versions couldn't harm it (and now they effectivelly auto-kill it, with no possible cover). The Russ tank isn't anything near as likely to kill the WG in a single round, particularly as a Battlecannon Russ can only snapfire any other weapons it may be equipped with.

Aren't they about the same number of points? (Forgive me - it's been awhile). With the Russ moving -away- from the WG and firing his main guns, how many WG would reach it, after how many turns of the WG not being able to shoot at all, all other things being equal?

If you're talking about WG having to footslog across the board, sure, there's an issue, but that's almost never the case.

Are Wraithguard squishy? Depends on what's shooting at them, like all models, really, but in general, T6 would seem to indicate they aren't THAT squishy, no. If it's just their eraser-gun that annoys you, ask your opponent to use the 6th ed rules for them. I'd be fine with it if I were playing you, as I would think most reasonable people would. (At least in non-tourny games). And the tourneys I've seen around my neck of the woods seems to use the previous chart, too.

Ideally, that would be nice. They weren't exactly under-gunned before. In practice, it's often awkward to ask that someone voluntarily nerf their units, particularly if it's something like a pickup game.

Again, a lot of your arguments really go both ways.

WSs are AV12, and 3 glances will nail it. The shield lowers pens to glances - on a 2+. But so what? 3 glances - no more fast-moving WG.

Yes, 3 glances will kill it, same goes for the overwhelmingly vast majority of other vehicles in the game. Skimmers however can get an on-demand 4+ cover save, and Eldar vehicles can even sport a 5++ as a 15pt upgrade if they desire if facing "Ignores Cover" weapons. They have a lot more resiliency than tracked vehicles or Walkers. To take down a jinking Wave Serpent with something like BS3 Lascannons, you need an average of 18 shots. Well, that sort of firepower is typically the entire long range AT component of a heavy gunline army, and if you lack that sort of AT then your ability to stop the WS is a major issue, and if you fail to put 3 HP's on it, the WS's shield means you likely aren't stunning/immobilizing it either. The Wave Serpent really is a rather stellar transport. And if you've used that gargantuan amount of firepower just to stop the one Wave Serpent, well, the rest of the Eldar army is likely umolested.

The WG can benefit from psychic abilities... so can your IOM stuff. Or any army with psykers.

Sure, but Eldar have widespread access to psykers, more effective psykers, with often more useful powers than say, an IG army does. It's exceedingly rare to see an Eldar army without a psyker (I think my own Eldar army that I originally built in the early days of 5th is still the only Eldar army I've seen without one), while IG armies usually don't have any.

The WS weaponry, while not useless, isn't very awe-inspiring. Sure, it adds some value, but it also adds a lot of points,

Are we looking at the same unit? Most Wave Serpent weapon options are 5pt pt upgrades. For 15pts you can more than double your firepower and go from 3 S6 shots and 2 S4 shots to 7 S6 shots and getting most of those an extra twelve inches of range, or 5pts to get an S8 Lance weapon. And then there's still the 2D6 S6 shot cover-ignoring shield if desired.

Granted, the Wave Serpent isn't the long range heavy battle tank it was in the 6E book, but is still putting out quite respectable firepower. For 125pts a Wave Serpent moving 12" a turn, and not firing its shield, is still outgunning two stationary Chimeras costing 130pts.

And as I just learned tonight, it's actually very possible to take out a WS turn one... Marine drop pods are a nasty thing. Every counter you come up with, can be countered by something else.

To some degree, sure, but not every army has those counters, especially not without abusing the allies rules to cherry-pick units from other armies to cover those weaknesses.

'If you only take one unit, it will get focused on'... a 270 pt unit of 5 guys (or just over 300 if you want to fill up the WS to 6)... That's like ~15-20% of your points in an 'average' 1500-1850 pt game. Multiple units? Three? It becomes a good chunk of your army, a pretty sizable investment already.

Most armies don't just take one of a high value/high priority unit. One's a target, two's a threat. Better yet take three, as one will miss and one will be dead. WG aren't an exception to this, but that doesn't mean it's a critical weakness, and there's still plenty of points for psykers, troops, jetbikes, tanks, and WK's even taking two units of WG's in WS's in an 1850pt list.

And that's basically the big problem, Eldar can fit all the really nasty stuff, usually with at least some redundancy, into an army, even in a single traditional CAD. Most other armies can't.

Wait, other people don't use psychic powers with IG?

....WHY? Holy crap, IG can get MLs for 50 or 25 points, and have access to divination which is all they need, ever.

A ML2 IG psyker with divination has NO bad power spreads. Prescience is sweet on literally anything-HWS, Platoons, Vehicle squadrons... And then there's the "lol rending lasguns" power, the "lol 4++ and now my priest makes them rerollable in cc WHERE IS YOUR EMPEROR PROTECTS NOW?" Power, the ignores cover power in a platoon so you can turn on split fire with orders...


I can't see a situation where I would leave home without at least 2x ML2 Div Primaris and an Astropath.

the_scotsman wrote:
Wait, other people don't use psychic powers with IG?

....WHY? Holy crap, IG can get MLs for 50 or 25 points, and have access to divination which is all they need, ever.

A ML2 IG psyker with divination has NO bad power spreads. Prescience is sweet on literally anything-HWS, Platoons, Vehicle squadrons... And then there's the "lol rending lasguns" power, the "lol 4++ and now my priest makes them rerollable in cc WHERE IS YOUR EMPEROR PROTECTS NOW?" Power, the ignores cover power in a platoon so you can turn on split fire with orders...


I can't see a situation where I would leave home without at least 2x ML2 Div Primaris and an Astropath.

A lot of the power they rely on are WC2, while many that Eldar rely on are WC1. Hell, Guide is a better ranged Prescience and is WC1 instead of WC2 that they can get on a Lvl3 pysker with a better statliine and powerful psychic bonuses for 25pts over an IG lvl2 psyker. Likewise, IG psykers don't have the same range of effective attachment/deployment options that Eldar psykers do, and a lot fewer powers that are useful.

Not saying that IG psykers can't be useful, just that they don't provide anything near the benefit to an IG army that they do to an Eldar army, and are typically easier to neutralize and aren't as cost effective, and as such aren't included anywhere near as often.

Look through Eldar lists and IG lists in the army subforum, you'll almost never see an Eldar list without psykers, while the IG lists typically don't have any.

Honestly, psykers and mobility are the two things I'm A-ok with Eldar having over everyone else. I was just noting that at least for me, IG psykers have been absolutely dynamite and I've been fielding more and more. They're probably the most useful among the armies that don't have a strong psychic focus like GK Daemons or Eldar.

It's Eldar durability and generalist firepower I take issue with. IMO the way Eldar really should work is durability around that of Tau, with more powerful specialist options and less powerful generalist options. Instead they're the top of everything and they have a bunch of units that kill anything you point them at, which is the complete opposite of the Eldar fluff shtick, I.e. "Correctly use your super specialist units to wipe out the enemy they were made to counter or they'll be really inefficient cost wise."


We really need to reintroduce hard unit number limits to 40k. If something is beyond rare in the fluff, you should really only be able to field 1 or 2.

the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, psykers and mobility are the two things I'm A-ok with Eldar having over everyone else. I was just noting that at least for me, IG psykers have been absolutely dynamite and I've been fielding more and more. They're probably the most useful among the armies that don't have a strong psychic focus like GK Daemons or Eldar.

It's Eldar durability and generalist firepower I take issue with. IMO the way Eldar really should work is durability around that of Tau, with more powerful specialist options and less powerful generalist options. Instead they're the top of everything and they have a bunch of units that kill anything you point them at, which is the complete opposite of the Eldar fluff shtick, I.e. "Correctly use your super specialist units to wipe out the enemy they were made to counter or they'll be really inefficient cost wise."


We really need to reintroduce hard unit number limits to 40k. If something is beyond rare in the fluff, you should really only be able to field 1 or 2.

I feel like a low model army with, no basic multi-wound models, a 2+ armor save only on the six 200 pt phoenix lords, generally 4+ save with a near universal T3 outside of bikes, wraiths, and named characters, and a max of AV 12 is fairly non-durable. I mean Fire Warriors make Guardians look like their bitches in durability, let alone every other aspect of the game. On the whole Eldar are actually fairly comparable in durability to Tau, if not worse if you take the two codex at their whole.

 Vaktathi wrote:
sure, but playing off T6 and Fearless as being "mostly like a marine" is being disingenuous though unless we're talking S8 weapons. They are much hardier than marines against the overwhelmingly vast majority of weapons in the game. Not all, but most.

The WG also costs more than twice as much as a basic marine, though. I was merely making the point that a LOT of their stat line is similar, even identical. T6 is indeed a boon over T4, no arguing that. That's why I wouldn't really agree that WG are 'squishy' - because they're not. They are hardier than marines, but justifiably so. But I also don't think they're near OTT as others seem to think they are. I've seen some posts where player A sees player B plop down 5 WG... so player A just refuses to play? If anything, the D chart itself is whacked - but that does benefit all D weapons (which I fear might become more common across the board).

 Vaktathi wrote:
No, but Eldar have more control over that than probably any other army, and we're talking a unit that's typically used to destroy the very things that are a strong threat to it in the first place.

With a 12" range (even less with D-scythes), if I am able to get within shooting range of the units you allude to - whose fault is that? Are you just going to sit and wait for them to show up and start shooting? Eldar aren't the only race with transports, or tools to deal with transports. Both generals can 'make mistakes' and misuse tools at their disposal. Not every eldar player is going to use WG masterfully, or get them into proper position every time, just as not every other player is going to react to them in the most efficient way.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This I think is a rather silly counter, the Leman Russ can move 6" a turn, period, and probably started with its butt to the board edge or close to it, while Wraithguard in a transport can get just about anywhere on the board by turn 2, positioning in that case is in the hands of the Eldar player, not the Imperial Guard player.

I don't think I was the one who brought up the Leman Russ as an example - In fact, you brought up the Russ as an example of a WG target. I was just rolling with it.

And I wasn't even considering a WS in the equation - that makes the unit ~300 points, going after a ~150 pt tank. Getting into position on turn two doesn't necessarily mean shooting on turn 2 - and if the Russ is stationary... I am not arguing that it's not -possible-, but maybe I give my opponent more credit in that I think they'd do something to protect the highest priority targets - and neutralize the threat if they make the WG the top of their own threat list. From the sound of it, you would likely prioritize them near the top. Then you'd devote resources to it. 'But that allows my opponent to use other resources of his to get into better position!'... which is supposed to be how war works!

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not arguing that. With the S10 guns they had before, they were rather effective at it, It just wasn't an auto-kill the way it is with D weapons, and the template versions couldn't harm it (and now they effectivelly auto-kill it, with no possible cover). The Russ tank isn't anything near as likely to kill the WG in a single round, particularly as a Battlecannon Russ can only snapfire any other weapons it may be equipped with.

You're talking WG with D-scythes now? Not only are those even more expensive (to the tune of 10 pts per model), but the template is even shorter range - and you're rolling -1 on the chart. With the new chart, I definitely agree that it's about as close to auto-kill as you're going to get (though a lot of 1s and 2s can short-circuit the attack and of course isn't impossible), but now you're talking ~320 pts for a minimal 5-man unit with a killable transport. Maybe I am just chicken, but that feels like putting a few big eggs in a small basket. You obviously see it otherwise, and that's cool.

 Vaktathi wrote:

If you're talking about WG having to footslog across the board, sure, there's an issue, but that's almost never the case.

But with a transport, that's another 110 pts, minimum. Suddenly that 210 pt unit becomes 320, without any guarantee of shooting on turn two. Otherwise they're slogging it, and likely going to take longer to get into their preferred position - if they can get there at all.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Ideally, that would be nice. They weren't exactly under-gunned before. In practice, it's often awkward to ask that someone voluntarily nerf their units, particularly if it's something like a pickup game.

I definitely feel ya there. Some random dude you don't know, kinda hard to judge what kind of player they are. And if they pull out a WK, a Hemlock, and a couple squads of WG... yeah, you're liable to get a little push back. :(
I guess it does depend on what kind of gaming you do - in tournament games, I can see feeling 'SOL' about what you're facing - you're at the mercy of the TO, the tourney rules, and the other players' level of desire to win. I know some tourneys outlaw D altogether, or enforce the 6th ed chart. But I doubt a majority of them do that.
Playing with friends - you should be able to at least ask for anything, and commence a discussion about it. But yeah, the random pick-up at a shop can be a big unpredictable encounter. You can't always rely on people being reasonable. :(

 Vaktathi wrote:

Yes, 3 glances will kill it, same goes for the overwhelmingly vast majority of other vehicles in the game. Skimmers however can get an on-demand 4+ cover save, and Eldar vehicles can even sport a 5++ as a 15pt upgrade if they desire if facing "Ignores Cover" weapons...

Jinking is indeed nice... but then that pretty much invalidates the WS's own weapons... and you're talking more upgrades, which adds even more points.

 Vaktathi wrote:

They have a lot more resiliency than tracked vehicles or Walkers. To take down a jinking Wave Serpent with something like BS3 Lascannons, you need an average of 18 shots. Well, that sort of firepower is typically the entire long range AT component of a heavy gunline army, and if you lack that sort of AT then your ability to stop the WS is a major issue, and if you fail to put 3 HP's on it, the WS's shield means you likely aren't stunning/immobilizing it either. The Wave Serpent really is a rather stellar transport. And if you've used that gargantuan amount of firepower just to stop the one Wave Serpent, well, the rest of the Eldar army is likely umolested.

But that's always been how 40K is, hasn't it? Prioritize targets and do what you can to take them out. If you're devoting a chunk of a gunline to taking it out - is the gunline doing its job? Is the WS doing its job, distracting and pulling fire away from softer Eldar targets? As my most recent marine opponent kept telling me during our last game, he had five areas of nasty marine troops and of course I wanted to kill them all - but you've got to prioritize - and there will always be a target at the top of your list. For you it seems to be WS with WG, and that's quite understandable. But I don't see that as a weakness in the game itself. If ~320 points draws your fire to a significant degree... is that not reasonable?

Then again, you can still take out the WS with a single shot (with a lot of luck), or with three shots (with less luck). I lost a WS last night to a handful of incoming shots. Not every kill will require 18 shots - sometimes it might even be -more-. Sometimes, it will be a lot less.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Sure, but Eldar have widespread access to psykers, more effective psykers, with often more useful powers than say, an IG army does. It's exceedingly rare to see an Eldar army without a psyker (I think my own Eldar army that I originally built in the early days of 5th is still the only Eldar army I've seen without one), while IG armies usually don't have any.

Personally my armies -always- include a Farseer. I'm just not a huge fan of the other options. But I definitely understand what you mean here, and Eldar psykers are strong - as they should be - and the good ones cost out to show that. I know lots of people that go with seer-councils, Hemlocks, etc, etc. Going crazy with them is quite possible. But some of the powers/abilities you mentioned are also available to other armies. Are eldar farseers 'too cheap', then, compared to others, if they're superior? Probably another discussion. But my point is - psykers are not limited to eldar only. There are plenty others who are efficient and can perform the same functions you used in your comments. If eldar psykers can perform the task a little easier - is that reflected in their points cost?

 Vaktathi wrote:
Are we looking at the same unit? Most Wave Serpent weapon options are 5pt pt upgrades. For 15pts you can more than double your firepower and go from 3 S6 shots and 2 S4 shots to 7 S6 shots and getting most of those an extra twelve inches of range, or 5pts to get an S8 Lance weapon. And then there's still the 2D6 S6 shot cover-ignoring shield if desired.

I think we are looking at the same unit - Eldar Craftworlds book, page 122. They can take upgrades - but they still cost points (5, 10, or 15 depending). But then again - according to your issue with them being so 'tough', as you previously stated, you assumed they'd be jinking for that awesome 4+ cover save.... which means they'd be snap-firing all that weaponry, right (unless there's something I missed about jinking forcing snap-fire)? Kinda makes their 'firepower' irrelevant. Shooting the shield off is definitely a nice touch... which then leaves it open to normal AV tests.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Granted, the Wave Serpent isn't the long range heavy battle tank it was in the 6E book, but is still putting out quite respectable firepower. For 125pts a Wave Serpent moving 12" a turn, and not firing its shield, is still outgunning two stationary Chimeras costing 130pts.

But two chimeras also presents a bit more of a tactical problem in some ways than a single WS. 3 HP each? Similar AVs? Larger carrying capacity? Two separate targets? It's all relevant.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To some degree, sure, but not every army has those counters, especially not without abusing the allies rules to cherry-pick units from other armies to cover those weaknesses.

That's an enormous pet peeve of mine. I don't use allies at all. Yeah, I've read stories about Eldar taking Dark Eldar warp-thingies... Ugh. That being said, you -do- have the ability to fight fire with fire, if you choose. I do think the rules are too 'weak' for 'come the apocalypse' and even 'desperate allies'. But hey, if GW can generate some more sales by encouraging folks to buy more figs... /eyeroll

As for my Tyranids, taking 'allies' just feels... wrong.

The options you refer to are there for every army, though. Your IG can take drop pods by using marine allies (and they're even Battle Brothers). If you limit the armies to no-allies, then the WS has to make the trek across the field, and there are no web-portal-thingies, etc.

Total respect for others who don't use (or abuse) allies! /salute

 Vaktathi wrote:

And that's basically the big problem, Eldar can fit all the really nasty stuff, usually with at least some redundancy, into an army, even in a single traditional CAD. Most other armies can't.

Well, WG still take an elite slot, and a CAD gets you three slots. But that's the same for everyone, I think. I guess there are eldar players who like that and also focus on redundancy, but I guess I am just old-fashioned and still am too tied to my other elites to completely go bonkers on WG. Maybe that makes me a 'bad' eldar player, if winning is the #1 end-all. I admit, once a fig starts heading north of 25 pts, I get leery about the costs and dramatically reducing my model count. Yes, I still use vehicles and such, too.

Either way - thanks for the civil discussion, Vaktathi. Even if we don't 100% agree, I enjoy the chat!

my brother in law plays a really legit ork army. played 2 100pt games in one night versus my dark eldar. he goes to shoot off his SAG in game one turn one and the poor guy blows up, same thing in game two.

never seen the man get angry before like that lol. i ended up losing but it was a fun couple of games

SilverSaint wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, psykers and mobility are the two things I'm A-ok with Eldar having over everyone else. I was just noting that at least for me, IG psykers have been absolutely dynamite and I've been fielding more and more. They're probably the most useful among the armies that don't have a strong psychic focus like GK Daemons or Eldar.

It's Eldar durability and generalist firepower I take issue with. IMO the way Eldar really should work is durability around that of Tau, with more powerful specialist options and less powerful generalist options. Instead they're the top of everything and they have a bunch of units that kill anything you point them at, which is the complete opposite of the Eldar fluff shtick, I.e. "Correctly use your super specialist units to wipe out the enemy they were made to counter or they'll be really inefficient cost wise."


We really need to reintroduce hard unit number limits to 40k. If something is beyond rare in the fluff, you should really only be able to field 1 or 2.

I feel like a low model army with, no basic multi-wound models, a 2+ armor save only on the six 200 pt phoenix lords, generally 4+ save with a near universal T3 outside of bikes, wraiths, and named characters, and a max of AV 12 is fairly non-durable. I mean Fire Warriors make Guardians look like their bitches in durability, let alone every other aspect of the game. On the whole Eldar are actually fairly comparable in durability to Tau, if not worse if you take the two codex at their whole.

Fire Warriors have a 4+ save instead of a 5+, but lower WS, BS, Init, and Ld, and Guardians can take a Warlock that can then turn just about any cover save into a 2+ or 3+ cover save and/or cast Protect to give them a 4+ armor save as well, and if they're taken as part of a weapons battery, then they benefit from T7 and a 3+ save (potentially increasable to 2+ with a Warlock) against shooting. Sure their vehicles are AV12, but AV12 is medium armor, not light armor, they can get invul saves, benefit from Jink, and have lots of psychic support like Fortune to increase survivability. 5 of 8 Aspect Warrior units have 3+ saves, 6 of 9 if you include Shadow Specters. They have Wraith infantry with T6, and T8 MC/GC units. Their "scout" equivalent gets Shrouded as opposed to the more typical Stealth on equivalent units from other armies. Any unit a Warlock is in can potentially get Protect cast on it to increase their armor save (2+ save Jetbikes are no joke). Even their AV 10 walkers get a 5++ built in.

They really don't lack anything for survivability unless something gets ahold of them in close combat.

the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, psykers and mobility are the two things I'm A-ok with Eldar having over everyone else. I was just noting that at least for me, IG psykers have been absolutely dynamite and I've been fielding more and more. They're probably the most useful among the armies that don't have a strong psychic focus like GK Daemons or Eldar.

It's Eldar durability and generalist firepower I take issue with. IMO the way Eldar really should work is durability around that of Tau, with more powerful specialist options and less powerful generalist options. Instead they're the top of everything and they have a bunch of units that kill anything you point them at, which is the complete opposite of the Eldar fluff shtick, I.e. "Correctly use your super specialist units to wipe out the enemy they were made to counter or they'll be really inefficient cost wise."


We really need to reintroduce hard unit number limits to 40k. If something is beyond rare in the fluff, you should really only be able to field 1 or 2.

Eldar are almost all T3 - even the bulk of their elites. I think they are already 'weak' enough. Hearing my opponent regularly wound on 2 or 3 is countered only by the pain that can be dished back, because in most cases I sure ain't gonna win a war of attrition.

The eldar 'fluff' also waxes on and on about their technological superiority, their advanced weaponry, their psychic mastery, etc, etc. Sometimes that actually does translate into game stats with the appropriate costs associated with it. Sometimes it doesn't.

That being said, I -do- like the idea of hard unit limits. Like you said, either an actual number... or maybe some units take more than one slot on the force org chart? If people have such a hard issue with WG - maybe they take 2 elite slots, instead of just one?

Of course, if John Doe is putting together his armies, the idea of 'restrictions' equates to 'I don't need to buy any more of those'... which GW might not really like.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Fire Warriors have a 4+ save instead of a 5+, but lower WS, BS, Init, and Ld, and Guardians can take a Warlock that can then turn just about any cover save into a 2+ or 3+ cover save and/or cast Protect to give them a 4+ armor save as well, and if they're taken as part of a weapons battery, then they benefit from T7 and a 3+ save (potentially increasable to 2+ with a Warlock) against shooting. Sure their vehicles are AV12, but AV12 is medium armor, not light armor, they can get invul saves, benefit from Jink, and have lots of psychic support like Fortune to increase survivability. 5 of 8 Aspect Warrior units have 3+ saves, 6 of 9 if you include Shadow Specters. They have Wraith infantry with T6, and T8 MC/GC units. Their "scout" equivalent gets Shrouded as opposed to the more typical Stealth on equivalent units from other armies. Any unit a Warlock is in can potentially get Protect cast on it to increase their armor save (2+ save Jetbikes are no joke). Even their AV 10 walkers get a 5++ built in.

They really don't lack anything for survivability unless something gets ahold of them in close combat.

You're putting an awful lot of faith in the notion of a Warlock 'potentially' getting that one power (Protect) based on a die roll. That being said - Conceal is pretty good and you can default to that.

As for the other stuff - as we've discussed, I don't really feel bad about WG having a T6 (along with their much higher price)... when all but one of the aspects have T3. Sure, 5/9 have 3+ Armor, but the others don't, including the one that I see most regularly on the table.

When it comes to it, Marines are more survivable than a large chunk of the Eldar list, pure and simple, on a model to model comparison. The benefits you listed generally require a lot of other factors to come into play (rolling well for the right powers, getting WC enough to use them, succeeding at casting, being in position, etc). But without any extraneous factors, a marine is -cheaper- than 7 of those aspects - and the two that are cheaper than marines - are less durable. Marine AV is higher, etc. But that's the way it's supposed to be, yes? Marines more durable, Eldar with more 'advanced' weapons, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Fire Warriors have a 4+ save instead of a 5+, but lower WS, BS, Init, and Ld, and Guardians can take a Warlock that can then turn just about any cover save into a 2+ or 3+ cover save and/or cast Protect to give them a 4+ armor save as well, and if they're taken as part of a weapons battery, then they benefit from T7 and a 3+ save (potentially increasable to 2+ with a Warlock) against shooting. Sure their vehicles are AV12, but AV12 is medium armor, not light armor, they can get invul saves, benefit from Jink, and have lots of psychic support like Fortune to increase survivability. 5 of 8 Aspect Warrior units have 3+ saves, 6 of 9 if you include Shadow Specters. They have Wraith infantry with T6, and T8 MC/GC units. Their "scout" equivalent gets Shrouded as opposed to the more typical Stealth on equivalent units from other armies. Any unit a Warlock is in can potentially get Protect cast on it to increase their armor save (2+ save Jetbikes are no joke). Even their AV 10 walkers get a 5++ built in.

They really don't lack anything for survivability unless something gets ahold of them in close combat.

I feel like you are selectively forgetting/assuming a lot here. Fire warriors are just straight up better then Guardians without a question. Same points/model, but allowing smaller sizes. Same S, T, W, LD. WS and I is irrelevant as both are abyssmal in melee. Fire warriors have a 4+ vs guardians 5+ and have Pulse Rifles that put Shuriken Catapults (advanced tech race my ass) to shame. Guardians are also more mobile (fleet and battle focus). In practice both sit on objectives (go go mobility bonus!). This results in Fire Warriors actually doing stuff as they have a 30" vs 12" range. This range also adds to Fire Warriors survivability. Most guardian units will never have a warlock with them as the warlock is over 1/3 the cost of the unit and if you are taking warlocks they are probably in an enclave. Even if the guardians do have a warlock, its not casting powers(assuming it even has a decent power) on the unit as the dice are highly likely being used for other units, or yes its throwing 1 dice at shrouded and hoping it roles a 4+. It is true in the best case scenario the Guardians are sitting in ruins on an objective with a Warlock getting shrouded every turn and a 2+ cover save and literally doing nothing else. Meanwhile if we are going all super survival route for 9 more points (then a min guardian squad w/ warlock) the minimum Fire Warrior team sits in a Devil Fish that is on an objective getting a cover save and shooting each turn, once the Devil Fish is destroyed your 6 fire warriors are now now getting 4+ cover and still shooting each turn. I just don't see how Fire Warriors aren't ALWAYS better then Guardians except in melee combat. As for the weapons battery...that is literally the weapons crew of 6 guardians who do nothing but 3 fire the artillery.

Just a sidenote for the Aspect Warriors...5/8 have a 12" shooting range and have high costs/model (lowest cost one is 13/model, while many are 20+), so woohoo 3+ on 5/8.

 Vaktathi wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Wait, other people don't use psychic powers with IG?

....WHY? Holy crap, IG can get MLs for 50 or 25 points, and have access to divination which is all they need, ever.

A ML2 IG psyker with divination has NO bad power spreads. Prescience is sweet on literally anything-HWS, Platoons, Vehicle squadrons... And then there's the "lol rending lasguns" power, the "lol 4++ and now my priest makes them rerollable in cc WHERE IS YOUR EMPEROR PROTECTS NOW?" Power, the ignores cover power in a platoon so you can turn on split fire with orders...

I can't see a situation where I would leave home without at least 2x ML2 Div Primaris and an Astropath.

A lot of the power they rely on are WC2, while many that Eldar rely on are WC1. Hell, Guide is a better ranged Prescience and is WC1 instead of WC2 that they can get on a Lvl3 pysker with a better statliine and powerful psychic bonuses for 25pts over an IG lvl2 psyker. Likewise, IG psykers don't have the same range of effective attachment/deployment options that Eldar psykers do, and a lot fewer powers that are useful.

All I hear is, "But their bacon-wrapped filet mignon is better than my filet mignon!" You've still got a premium cut of beef. I'll tell you like I tell my sister's kids.....Booooooooooooooyyyyyyyyyyy, you betta eat your steak before someone eat's it for you.

 Vaktathi wrote:
BLAH BLAH, guardians are awesome. BLAH BLAH, Warlocks give them 2+ armor saves.

Guardians suck. They sucked last edition. They suck this edition. The free points they get in the craftworld warhost is only a minor consolation for being FORCED to take a sucky unit. And WARLOCKS!! Oh Warlocks! They cost 35 points for a 16% chance of getting the power you're saying improves their armor saves. If you'll take those odds, I'd like to invite you to my weekend poker game.

 Vaktathi wrote:
especially not without abusing the allies rules to cherry-pick units from other armies to cover those weaknesses.

Old one but good one: Don't hate the player, hate the game. You can't get mad at your fellow players for following the rules that make them more likely to win. And you spoke of pickup games...how could you expect a random opponent NOT to use such rules, when over half of the random opponents they face WILL use whatever wonky rules are at their disposal to give them an advantage? If you're playing a random guy, you need to understand that to the other guy, YOU'RE the random guy. He can't know or expect you to gimp yourself any more than you can realistically expect him to. I'd take your pure IG against my pure Eldar any time, and I'd be willing to wager on my winning, even if you brought multiple wraithknights. So suck it up, buttercup. Start thinking about ways to win instead of how tasty the other guy's steak is.

Mort wrote:

You're putting an awful lot of faith in the notion of a Warlock 'potentially' getting that one power (Protect) based on a die roll.

well, I did say "possible" or "and/or"

Unfortunately I'm on the phone and can't address as much as I'd like right now, but I have to respond once to the below...

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:



All I hear is, "But their bacon-wrapped filet mignon is better than my filet mignon!" You've still got a premium cut of beef. I'll tell you like I tell my sister's kids.....Booooooooooooooyyyyyyyyyyy, you betta eat your steak before someone eat's it for you.

I mean, if you don't want to address the substantive points and simply declare it so just because...ok

 Vaktathi wrote:
BLAH BLAH, guardians are awesome. BLAH BLAH, Warlocks give them 2+ armor saves.

Sure...yeah...that's totally what I said...

If you want to put words in my mouth and shadowbox a red herring, ok, but let's accept that for what it is, which is not representative of anything I said.

Guardians suck. They sucked last edition.

we are talking about resiliency. If you want to put a value judgement on the unit as a whole, that's a different conversation, but ultimately unrelated to the previous point.

They suck this edition. The free points they get in the craftworld warhost is only a minor consolation for being FORCED to take a sucky unit. And WARLOCKS!! Oh Warlocks! They cost 35 points for a 16% chance of getting the power you're saying improves their armor saves. If you'll take those odds, I'd like to invite you to my weekend poker game.

the pint was that it's something they have access to, hence why I said "possible". They will always have access to shrouded if they want it.

Old one but good one: Don't hate the player, hate the game.

that's largely what I'm doing...

I'd take your pure IG against my pure Eldar any time, and I'd be willing to wager on my winning, even if you brought multiple wraithknights.

K. Given that we will never meet, and you don't sound like anyone I'd like to play, I'd say this is a rather pointless e-buff.

So suck it up, buttercup. Start thinking about ways to win instead of how tasty the other guy's steak is.

or we could talk about balace issues and how we feel they affect the game as we perceive it, which is the point of the thread, so go smoke that pipe yourself pal. Welcome to the ignore button with your attitude buddy

Let's keep it polite in this thread, please - attack the argument, not the poster! Thanks all

 Vaktathi wrote:
K. Given that we will never meet, and you don't sound like anyone I'd like to play, I'd say this is a rather pointless e-buff.

So suck it up, buttercup. Start thinking about ways to win instead of how tasty the other guy's steak is.

Welcome to the ignore button with your attitude buddy

Sorry you don't get my sense of humor. Without a sense of humor, you're probably not someone I'd want to play with either, so it's probably just as well. Honestly though, if you felt offended by the way I presented my information, sorry. Imagine everything I said coming from the mouth of a charismatic guy with a huge grin on his face the entire time, that was presenting the words in obvious jest, being playful. In the words of the man with the most permenent of smiles, "Why so serious?"


P.S. But yeah, you're right. We probably never will meet if you live on the moon. NASA asked me to join the space program, but I solemnly told them I'd only join on the condition they provided me with a dikk four to take on my journey into space. The recruiter asked what that was, I laughed at him, and that was that. We agreed that the aliens living on the moon probably wouldn't get my sense of humor, either.

I like to think I have a great sense of humor. I'm particularly fond of poop jokes and my own misfortunes. However, intentionally misrepresenting my arguments and throwing in the equivalent of "Learn2Play" isn't humor, particularly not on an internet message board where body language and tone do not translate. If you want to refute my arguments, that's fine, but don't misrepresent my arguments and toss in an "L2P" to cap it off.

I mean, sure, go ahead and point out that Protect is a 1/6 chance to get, I'll grant that, but lets not make it out like it doesn't exist or that Conceal isn't also there and extremely solid at increasing the resiliency of these units, and lets not misrepresent what I say about Jetbikes to apply to Guardians. When there are very real differences between the capabilities and effectiveness of something like an IG Primaris Psyker versus a Farseer for a relatively small gap in points, lets not make it out like they're just different flavors of steak without addressing that gap and the reason why one is ubiquitous and the other relatively rare. If you have an argument to the contrary, state it, but don't just hand-wave it away.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Everyone crys so much about eldar but this is why I tell them its not so bad! Their D weapons are really squishy for their points. With my new nids I plan on dropping a large blast (pinning) then just slaughter them with gaunts

In all fairness, everything in this game is squishy Vs a SAG rolling boxcars. a large blast VORTEX kinda kills everything in the game.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Wait, other people don't use psychic powers with IG?

....WHY? Holy crap, IG can get MLs for 50 or 25 points, and have access to divination which is all they need, ever.

A ML2 IG psyker with divination has NO bad power spreads. Prescience is sweet on literally anything-HWS, Platoons, Vehicle squadrons... And then there's the "lol rending lasguns" power, the "lol 4++ and now my priest makes them rerollable in cc WHERE IS YOUR EMPEROR PROTECTS NOW?" Power, the ignores cover power in a platoon so you can turn on split fire with orders...

I can't see a situation where I would leave home without at least 2x ML2 Div Primaris and an Astropath.

A lot of the power they rely on are WC2, while many that Eldar rely on are WC1. Hell, Guide is a better ranged Prescience and is WC1 instead of WC2 that they can get on a Lvl3 pysker with a better statliine and powerful psychic bonuses for 25pts over an IG lvl2 psyker. Likewise, IG psykers don't have the same range of effective attachment/deployment options that Eldar psykers do, and a lot fewer powers that are useful.

All I hear is, "But their bacon-wrapped filet mignon is better than my filet mignon!" You've still got a premium cut of beef. I'll tell you like I tell my sister's kids.....Booooooooooooooyyyyyyyyyyy, you betta eat your steak before someone eat's it for you.

 Vaktathi wrote:
BLAH BLAH, guardians are awesome. BLAH BLAH, Warlocks give them 2+ armor saves.

Guardians suck. They sucked last edition. They suck this edition. The free points they get in the craftworld warhost is only a minor consolation for being FORCED to take a sucky unit. And WARLOCKS!! Oh Warlocks! They cost 35 points for a 16% chance of getting the power you're saying improves their armor saves. If you'll take those odds, I'd like to invite you to my weekend poker game.

 Vaktathi wrote:
especially not without abusing the allies rules to cherry-pick units from other armies to cover those weaknesses.

Old one but good one: Don't hate the player, hate the game. You can't get mad at your fellow players for following the rules that make them more likely to win. And you spoke of pickup games...how could you expect a random opponent NOT to use such rules, when over half of the random opponents they face WILL use whatever wonky rules are at their disposal to give them an advantage? If you're playing a random guy, you need to understand that to the other guy, YOU'RE the random guy. He can't know or expect you to gimp yourself any more than you can realistically expect him to. I'd take your pure IG against my pure Eldar any time, and I'd be willing to wager on my winning, even if you brought multiple wraithknights. So suck it up, buttercup. Start thinking about ways to win instead of how tasty the other guy's steak is.

No, their filet is cheaper for no reap difference. That's the difference.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Protect is a 1/6 chance to get, I'll grant that, but lets not make it out like it doesn't exist

At 16% chance of getting it, with no way of improving your chance of getting it for a guardian squad w/warlock, it basically doesn't exist from a tournament perspective. You can't depend on it AT ALL. If you do, you're doing it wrong. I play LOT'S of psykers, and there is only 1 way to do it, as far as I'm concerned: Only take powers from charts where no matter what you roll, you have a definitive use for the powers. Often, this means taking psykers like Eldrad, who can get up to 5 powers from a single tree. Other times, it includes taking a farseer and knowing that I'll be taking both the Fate Primaris and the Divination Primaris. But inevitably, I leave as little as possible to chance. For the most part, I know what powers I will have before I ever roll the dice.

 Vaktathi wrote:
or that Conceal isn't also there and extremely solid at increasing the resiliency of these units, and lets not misrepresent what I say about Jetbikes to apply to Guardians.

Oh, sorry. I typed 2+. It should have said, "BLAH BLAH, Warlocks give them 4+ armor saves." But yeah, conceal is ok. But you're still spending 35-40 points to have a 50% chance each round to put conceal on one of the worst models point for point in the game.

 Vaktathi wrote:

When there are very real differences between the capabilities and effectiveness of something like an IG Primaris Psyker versus a Farseer for a relatively small gap in points, lets not make it out like they're just different flavors of steak without addressing that gap and the reason why one is ubiquitous and the other relatively rare. If you have an argument to the contrary, state it, but don't just hand-wave it away.

Ok, argument without hand-wave: You have to consider context and price difference. Standing side by side, alone, without considering their respective armies, sure Farseers are better stand-alone Psykers. But not by as much as you're representing. Primaris Psyker has only a slightly different statline, with the most significant differences being -1WS/BS, -1W, +1A, -1Ld, and Mastery Level 2 instead of 3. Also, unlike the farseer who has no AP on their melee weapon(but does have fleshbane), the primaris psyker get's a force weapon, and so is more customizeable in that regard, able to choose a force sword, force axe, or force staff. But the farseer does get bones of the farseer and a ghosthelm, so that balances out too. You also get access to many psychic options that Eldar don't have: Pyromancy, Biomancy, Telekinesis, and Maelific Daemonology. That said, for these differences, the Farseer is 25 points more expensive if not taking upgrades. Sure, not a lot, but consistent with the cost of an additional mastery level.

Now, if you consider the context: The armies that you're taking the psyker in. That makes the primaris psyker more valuable, because IG have the thing that benefits most from psychic powers that effect entire units: Hordes. Imagine hammerhand on a squad of 50 fearless conscripts. Nevermind that they're weapon skill 2. They're 3 points per model and 50 of them can be attacking at S5 for 150 points. But that is in a tree that you'd only have about a 33% chance of getting what you want out of it, with the other options not being terribly useful to you. So, I'd probably use them as the other gentlement mentioned earlier, taking Divination with them, because everything in the IG army benefits from pretty much every power in that discipline. No matter what you get, it will be useful. And if you build a proper IG horde, with a nice fearless conscript blob, and some infantry blobs, maybe some special weapons squads and/or tanks for long range support, you should have plenty to take advantage of whatever powers your psyker gets, boss style. So, what I'm sayin is, be a boss, bro.


OH! And L2P.

J/K

But seriously, L2P.