Trying to make an anti-Eldar Salamanders army

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**asorel**

I just decided to get into wargaming. I know some about 40k lore, but am nearly oblivious on crunch. I plan to field a Salamanders army.

My first few games will likely be against Eldar, which will be either vehicles, jetbikes, or wraithguard. Point limit will be 1250, and no flyers for the sake of simplicity. The player of the Eldar has said that he won't be using any excessively cheesy tactics. We'll just be using proxies initially, so model cost isn't an issue. Any suggestions for an appropriate loadout?

**Massawyrm**

I have one. There's a vicious Salamanders build that is often overlooked because everyone is distracted by the fluff and crunch of the White Scars. A Salamanders bike army is brutal. Take Troop bike squads in groups of 5 - 4 bikes and 1 attack bike. 2 Melta guns and a MM attack bike in each unit. Then run MM Attack Bike squads as FA. Your HQ is the forgefather, giving all that sweet melta twin link. Now you're running an army every bit as fast as Eldar, with enough melta to evaporate any real opposition. Wraithknight? Pfff. Scat bikes? Please. Wraithguard? See you in hell, guys. Speedy T5 melta delivery systems can keep up with the nastiest of Eldar spam lists. Tone it down for fun, cheese free games, but break out the big guns when the Eldar play dirty.

**asorel**

Massawyrm wrote:
I have one. There's a vicious Salamanders build that is often overlooked because everyone is distracted by the fluff and crunch of the White Scars. A Salamanders bike army is brutal. Take Troop bike squads in groups of 5 - 4 bikes and 1 attack bike. 2 Melta guns and a MM attack bike in each unit. Then run MM Attack Bike squads as FA. Your HQ is the forgefather, giving all that sweet melta twin link. Now you're running an army every bit as fast as Eldar, with enough melta to evaporate any real opposition. Wraithknight? Pfff. Scat bikes? Please. Wraithguard? See you in hell, guys. Speedy T5 melta delivery systems can keep up with the nastiest of Eldar spam lists. Tone it down for fun, cheese free games, but break out the big guns when the Eldar play dirty.

Possible noob question: Is using only attack bikes allowed under 7th edition rules? I thought there were new rules in place that required a certain amount of several unit types in an army.

**Raven Cowl**

Drop pod salamanders are brutal.

**Sidstyler**

Massawyrm wrote:
I have one. There's a vicious Salamanders build that is often overlooked because everyone is distracted by the fluff and crunch of the White Scars. A Salamanders bike army is brutal. Take Troop bike squads in groups of 5 - 4 bikes and 1 attack bike. 2 Melta guns and a MM attack bike in each unit. Then run MM Attack Bike squads as FA. Your HQ is the forgefather, giving all that sweet melta twin link. Now you're running an army every bit as fast as Eldar, with enough melta to evaporate any real opposition. Wraithknight? Pfff. Scat bikes? Please. Wraithguard? See you in hell, guys. Speedy T5 melta delivery systems can keep up with the nastiest of Eldar spam lists. Tone it down for fun, cheese free games, but break out the big guns when the Eldar play dirty.

Problem is, that isn't very "fluffy" for Salamanders, who typically don't use a lot of bikes, speeders, or assault Marines if I'm not mistaken. Of course it doesn't really matter and no one really cares, but you know...

**asorel**

Sidstyler wrote:
Massawyrm wrote:
I have one. There's a vicious Salamanders build that is often overlooked because everyone is distracted by the fluff and crunch of the White Scars. A Salamanders bike army is brutal. Take Troop bike squads in groups of 5 - 4 bikes and 1 attack bike. 2 Melta guns and a MM attack bike in each unit. Then run MM Attack Bike squads as FA. Your HQ is the forgefather, giving all that sweet melta twin link. Now you're running an army every bit as fast as Eldar, with enough melta to evaporate any real opposition. Wraithknight? Pfff. Scat bikes? Please. Wraithguard? See you in hell, guys. Speedy T5 melta delivery systems can keep up with the nastiest of Eldar spam lists. Tone it down for fun, cheese free games, but break out the big guns when the Eldar play dirty.

Problem is, that isn't very "fluffy" for Salamanders, who typically don't use a lot of bikes, speeders, or assault Marines if I'm not mistaken. Of course it doesn't really matter and no one really cares, but you know...

I'll just be using cardboard cutout proxies for the first few games, so "fluff" isn't really an issue at this point. I may try sticking to a central theme as I become more involved in the game, and get a grasp of the tactics involved.

**commander dante**

Errrr....
Lots of flamers+meltas
Vulkan he'stan
Ally with Cluexus assassin for anti psyker

**Red__Thirst**

I'll be honest, I've been *SORELY* tempted to take a small Salamanders force over the years as an Ally to my Vostroyan I.G.

That said, looking at it with an eye to the Fluff, The Salamanders Homeworld of Nocturn has higher than average gravity for a human habitable world. As a result, the Salamanders don't typically field large numbers of Assault Marines or Bike Squads.

That said, it doesn't mean they aren't present in their arsenal. Salamanders benefit GREATLY from the presence of Flame & Melta based weaponry.

For a 1250 point pure marine list, I'd look at the following options, mixing and matching for taste.

HQ: Only run one, above 1500 I start to consider running 2 in a marine list. Vulkan is an obvious choice as it seems he is the way you unlock master crafted on your Melta weaponry according to the Rumor Mill. The current scuttlebutt is that all Flamer weapons in a Salamanders list will be twinlinked for the puroses of shooting (Re-roll failed to-wound), and that they will receive a 4+ Fell No Pain save versus flamer weaponry. That said, Vulkan is fairly expensive, and if you're not going to have a Plethora of melta in your list, then it may be more judicious to field a Librarian. I tend to avoid using named characters personally, but that doesn't mean you should of course. Vulkan's (rumored) army wide buff is pretty awesome for sure, so try him and a few other options out & see what you like. Having him and a Librarian both wouldn't be bad for larger games.

Troops: Tactical Squad, Flamer (Or Melta if Vulkan is in your list ) as a special weapon, Combi-flamer/Melta on the sergeant (Again, Vulkan determines this) and put whatever heavy weapon you like in here (Multi-melta if Vulkan). Buy them a drop pod dedicated transport (or rhino, though drop pods work better in my experience)

Second Troops selection can be either another Tactical Squad or a Camo Cloak equipped Scout Squad with bolters & a Sergeant with a combiflamer/melta. Cheap infiltration & harassing squad that can take an early game objective & use cover to be hard to remove from the tabletop.

Elite: Sternguard Squad with a mixture of combiflamers & combimeltas in another drop pod. Attach your HQ to this Squad for added alpha strike.

Second Elite (optional): Dreadnought in a drop pod, armed with a Power Fist + Heavy Flamer and Multimelta. Strongly reccomend this so you can get 2 of your 3 Pods in on turn 1. If you don't choose to field this, them I recommend fielding a second Tactical Squad in it's own Drop Pod. Always try and have Minimum 3 Pods in your list if you're going with a drop theme so turn one you get two of them in. Drop pod assault specifies that on turn one you get half your pod on table, rounding up. So odd numbers of pods are beneficial (1 pod, always arrives Turn one; 3 pods, 2 arrive turn one; 5 pods, 3 arrive turn one; etc. etc.)

Fast Attack: 3x Attack Bikes (Attack Bike Squads should be able to still be fielded in groups of anywhere from 1 to 3 in the new codex) armed with 3x Multimeltas. Alternatively, you can field a squad of bikes with 2x Melta or Flamer (Flamer recommended if you're not using Vulkan) with a mulimelta attack bike attached. The first option is dedicated anti-armor, the second is more utilitarian in nature, able to hurt both infantry pretty well as well as threaten armor.

That should be more than enough to get you up to at least 1250 or so points.

Hopefully it's helpful and last but certainly not least, Welcome to 40k!

If you'd like any further help or want to bounce ideas back and forth, feel free to PM me.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

**Belly**

Massawyrm wrote:
I have one. There's a vicious Salamanders build that is often overlooked because everyone is distracted by the fluff and crunch of the White Scars. A Salamanders bike army is brutal. Take Troop bike squads in groups of 5 - 4 bikes and 1 attack bike. 2 Melta guns and a MM attack bike in each unit. Then run MM Attack Bike squads as FA. Your HQ is the forgefather, giving all that sweet melta twin link. Now you're running an army every bit as fast as Eldar, with enough melta to evaporate any real opposition. Wraithknight? Pfff. Scat bikes? Please. Wraithguard? See you in hell, guys. Speedy T5 melta delivery systems can keep up with the nastiest of Eldar spam lists. Tone it down for fun, cheese free games, but break out the big guns when the Eldar play dirty.

erm...Melta isn't quite as effective against those targets as you think it is. A single melta shot will kill 0.37 bikes, if they jink. As a comparison twin linked bolters from the bikes kill 0.29 jetbikes.
Against a Wraithknight, it will take 20.25 twin linked melta shots to down it. Assuming it doesn't have a coversave.
Melta is wasted against the strong competitive Eldar lists. Grav and Plasma is much more effective. For instance a rapid fire Plasma gun does 0.55 wounds to bikes, and is almost as effective against a wraithknight as TL melta is. Grav is obviously the best against a wraithknight, needing only 6.75 grav guns to down it, and is more effective against bikes too (more wounds, and out-ranging both melta and rapid fire plasma).
Both Rapid fire plasma and grav are more effective against Wraithguard than TL Melta.

As an Eldar player I would be very happy to face a melta spamming bike army without h&r. While your melta bikes kill 0.37 of mine per turn, my scatter laser bikes kill 0.59 of your bikes per turn, while being able to outrange, out-move and outshoot you. Not a good selection. It is literally the worst special weapon against jetbikes, with even flamers being more effective (if you get 3 or more hits)

Aside from that, Salamanders on bikes is completely un-fluffy.

OP. I think a drop-pod Salamanders force is strong against Eldar. Loads of Heavy flamers, a plasma command squad (or sternguard). It's also a pretty strong army in general, and not something overly common.

**Massawyrm**

Belly wrote:
erm...Melta isn't quite as effective against those targets as you think it is. A single melta shot will kill 0.37 bikes, if they jink. As a comparison twin linked bolters from the bikes kill 0.29 jetbikes.
Against a Wraithknight, it will take 20.25 twin linked melta shots to down it. Assuming it doesn't have a coversave.

Both Rapid fire plasma and grav are more effective against Wraithguard than TL Melta.

As an Eldar player I would be very happy to face a melta spamming bike army without h&r. While your melta bikes kill 0.37 of mine per turn, my scatter laser bikes kill 0.59 of your bikes per turn, while being able to outrange, out-move and outshoot you. Not a good selection. It is literally the worst special weapon against jetbikes, with even flamers being more effective (if you get 3 or more hits)

While your mathhammer is correct, your tactics are not. *If* they jink I kill .37 per meltagun a turn. That's true. My unit of five bikes drops 2 of your dudes, all told. But *if* they jink, you're not killing .59 per bike, you're killing .14 per bike. So if you've got a squad of 10 scatbikes that Jink, I'll kill 2 and you'll have just enough scatbikes left over to kill one of mine. If you don't jink, I kill 3 and you'll kill 4 - though a full 10 man scatbike squads falls just shy of wiping my whole unit - 5.92 wounds - so if you shoot first I'm toast. Of course, this army has 8 other units just like it. That's what's stupid about this list. In this scenario, you're losing 18 bikes if you jink, 27 if you don't. Hardly ineffective.

But this wasn't designed to go against a pure scat/wraith list. Nothing short of a tweaked tourney netlist is going to do that. What works about this list is it is a TAC list. It can keep up with the movement of fast eldar lists, while outrunning the slower threats and dealing with them at a distance. It has the firepower to level a wraithknight a turn, with some to spare, but can also seize objectives well (ObSec on 6 of the squads) in Maelstrom missions/endgame, and switch to bolters when they need to mow down Guardians. And as they are all interchangeable, losing any one unit is inconsequential. You might be happy to face this list with competitive Eldar, but if it is played right, you might change your mind about that midgame.

As to fluffiness, Salamanders 2nd, 3rd, 4th and most notably 7th, all use bikes. They don't "make much use of them," but they do use them. A 7th company bike list like this running against Eldar isn't any sort of heresy.

**Rune Stonegrinder**

asorel wrote:
I just decided to get into wargaming. I know some about 40k lore, but am nearly oblivious on crunch. I plan to field a Salamanders army.

My first few games will likely be against Eldar, which will be either vehicles, jetbikes, or wraithguard. Point limit will be 1250, and no flyers for the sake of simplicity. The player of the Eldar has said that he won't be using any excessively cheesy tactics. We'll just be using proxies initially, so model cost isn't an issue. Any suggestions for an appropriate loadout?

As a Eldar player the only space marine pure list I fear is Drop Pods, the more you can deploy in turn one the better. overwelm me and cripple or destroy as much as you can ASAP.

**Xerics**

commander dante wrote:
Errrr....
Lots of flamers+meltas
Vulkan he'stan
Ally with Cluexus assassin for anti psyker

Vulkan not a good idea. He is a huge point sink for a wraithknight just to delete off the board. Trust me I have done it to other primarchs and he will go down just the same.

**asorel**

Spoiler:

Using the suggestions so far, I created a roster using Battlescribe. Seeing as I did this based on suggestions alone, as I don't have the codex yet, I'm assuming this is a terribly suboptimal selection for the moment.

**asorel**

Draft 2, Realized some mistakes in the first.

Spoiler:

**Belly**

Massawyrm wrote:
Belly wrote:
erm...Melta isn't quite as effective against those targets as you think it is. A single melta shot will kill 0.37 bikes, if they jink. As a comparison twin linked bolters from the bikes kill 0.29 jetbikes.
Against a Wraithknight, it will take 20.25 twin linked melta shots to down it. Assuming it doesn't have a coversave.

Both Rapid fire plasma and grav are more effective against Wraithguard than TL Melta.

As an Eldar player I would be very happy to face a melta spamming bike army without h&r. While your melta bikes kill 0.37 of mine per turn, my scatter laser bikes kill 0.59 of your bikes per turn, while being able to outrange, out-move and outshoot you. Not a good selection. It is literally the worst special weapon against jetbikes, with even flamers being more effective (if you get 3 or more hits)

While your mathhammer is correct, your tactics are not. *If* they jink I kill .37 per meltagun a turn. That's true. My unit of five bikes drops 2 of your dudes, all told. But *if* they jink, you're not killing .59 per bike, you're killing .14 per bike. So if you've got a squad of 10 scatbikes that Jink, I'll kill 2 and you'll have just enough scatbikes left over to kill one of mine. If you don't jink, I kill 3 and you'll kill 4 - though a full 10 man scatbike squads falls just shy of wiping my whole unit - 5.92 wounds - so if you shoot first I'm toast. Of course, this army has 8 other units just like it. That's what's stupid about this list. In this scenario, you're losing 18 bikes if you jink, 27 if you don't. Hardly ineffective.

But this wasn't designed to go against a pure scat/wraith list. Nothing short of a tweaked tourney netlist is going to do that. What works about this list is it is a TAC list. It can keep up with the movement of fast eldar lists, while outrunning the slower threats and dealing with them at a distance. It has the firepower to level a wraithknight a turn, with some to spare, but can also seize objectives well (ObSec on 6 of the squads) in Maelstrom missions/endgame, and switch to bolters when they need to mow down Guardians. And as they are all interchangeable, losing any one unit is inconsequential. You might be happy to face this list with competitive Eldar, but if it is played right, you might change your mind about that midgame.

As to fluffiness, Salamanders 2nd, 3rd, 4th and most notably 7th, all use bikes. They don't "make much use of them," but they do use them. A 7th company bike list like this running against Eldar isn't any sort of heresy.

You missed the part where I pointed out that any other special weapon is better than taking meltas. Even with twin-linked.

You're right, it is a solid TAC army list. But don't kid yourself that Jetbike spam is a good matchup. With a White Scars list that's optimized for Eldar, you're in with a chance. Melta is almost completely wasted when the army in question fields next to no vehicles.

Aside from that, Eldar will always get the first round of shooting against this list. You have no scout move, and your melta guns are drastically outranged. Ok. You have a handful of multi-melta's. Even if you have first turn, you'll be lucky to get more than a couple of meltagun shots off, and be limited to long range bolters. Lord help you if it's hammer & anvil.

Yes, you have the firepower to kill a wraithknight in a turn. I calculated it at...20 melta shots? Good luck with that. Miss killing it, and it starts eating a squad per turn, because you're stuck in combat with it, and can't shoot it. Or you can use 7 grav guns.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
OP...

Just looking through the recent list.

Am I right in reading you've given the command squad Flamers AND Meltas? And one of them as a Combi-melta, Flamer and a Melta?

I'm not sure that's legal, but it's definitely not a good idea. While a veteran dual wielding a flamer and a melta is awesome, he cannot actually fire both. Cut the extra weapons and try to squeeze in an Apocathary.

Consider giving some of the Tac squads a Multi Melta. Even though they will be snap-shoting on the turn they enter, they still get a re-roll, so you might get lucky.

Also, you cannot take two combi-weapons on the sarges in the tax squads.

After cutting some of the extra wargear, you may find yourself with some extra points. An assault squad with 2x flamers might be fun. Just take 5 men, 2 flamers and a pod. Handy, cheap little unit good for moping up stragglers.

**asorel**

Belly wrote:
OP...

Just looking through the recent list.

Am I right in reading you've given the command squad Flamers AND Meltas? And one of them as a Combi-melta, Flamer and a Melta?

I'm not sure that's legal, but it's definitely not a good idea. While a veteran dual wielding a flamer and a melta is awesome, he cannot actually fire both. Cut the extra weapons and try to squeeze in an Apocathary.

Consider giving some of the Tac squads a Multi Melta. Even though they will be snap-shoting on the turn they enter, they still get a re-roll, so you might get lucky.

Also, you cannot take two combi-weapons on the sarges in the tax squads.

After cutting some of the extra wargear, you may find yourself with some extra points. An assault squad with 2x flamers might be fun. Just take 5 men, 2 flamers and a pod. Handy, cheap little unit good for moping up stragglers.

I'll keep that in mind. So primarily flamers, with a multimelta in a couple of squads in case of vehicles?

**Red__Thirst**

Asorel, FYI you need to edit your exact point costs for unit upgrades and the like out of your posts, along with stat lines as well, as it's against the forum rules. Listing the total points cost and wargear for different units and characters is fine, however.

Also, you've over-geared your squads. Go back and read over the command squad wording carefully and note how you add wargear to squad members. A model can typically only have one upgrade generally speaking. Your command squad can have a Sergeant with wider access to weaponry such as Melee and ranged weapons such as storm bolters/combi-weapons/plasma pistol/grav pistols/etc. Each veteran can replace their bolt gun with a (Note one) weapon from the special weapons list, to include Gravguns, plasma guns, meltaguns, and flamers. Giving this squad 4 flamers, and the sergeant a combiflamer + Meltabombs, they would be a pretty impressive sight to see for wound generation when they pile out of a drop pod the turn they hit.

Just offering input, and l hope to go over your revised list when you post it.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

**asorel**

This is with what I came up. I had points to spare after the FA assault, so I gave every tac a multimelta.

+++ Salamanders 3 (1250pts) +++

++ Space Marines: Codex (2013) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1250pts) ++

+ (No Category) +

Chapter Tactics [Salamanders]

+ No Force Org Slot (175pts) +

Command Squad (175pts) [Apothecary (35pts)]
····Drop Pod (35pts) [Storm Bolter]
····Veteran (25pts) [Bolt Pistol, Flamer]
····Veteran (25pts) [Bolt Pistol, Flamer ]
····Veteran (25pts) [Bolt Pistol, Flamer ]
····Veteran (30pts) [Bolt Pistol, Meltagun]

+ HQ (190pts) +

Vulkan He'Stan, Forgefather (190pts) [Artificer Armour, Bolt Pistol, Frag and Krak Grenades, Gauntlet of the Forge, Kesare's Mantle, Power Armour, Spear of Vulkan]

+ Troops (790pts) +

Tactical Squad (190pts) [Flamer , Multi-Melta , 9x Space Marine (126pts)]
····Drop Pod (35pts) [Storm Bolter]
····Space Marine Sergeant (14pts) [Bolt pistol, Chainsword]

Tactical Squad (200pts) [Flamer , Multi-Melta , 9x Space Marine (126pts)]
····Drop Pod (35pts) [Storm Bolter]
····Space Marine Sergeant [Bolter, Combi-weapon ]

Tactical Squad (200pts) [Flamer , Multi-Melta , 9x Space Marine (126pts)]
····Drop Pod (35pts) [Storm Bolter]
····Space Marine Sergeant (24pts) [Bolter, Combi-weapon]

Tactical Squad (200pts) [Flamer, Multi-Melta, 9x Space Marine (126pts)]
····Drop Pod (35pts) [Storm Bolter]
····Space Marine Sergeant (24pts) [Bolter, Combi-weapon]

+ Fast Attack (95pts) +

Assault Squad (95pts) [2x Flamer, 4x Space Marine ]
····Drop Pod [Storm Bolter]
····Space Marine Sergeant (17pts) [Bolt Pistol, Chainsword]

Created with BattleScribe (http://www.battlescribe.net)

**Red__Thirst**

Again, asorel, don't list exact point values for upgrade costs such as the Flamers in your command squad. Go in and edit those out, but leave your total point cost for the unit there if you wish.

You don't want to anger the mods man, trust me.

I'll comment on the list in a bit once I'm home from work.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

**Glitcha**

You need 2 units to wreck eldar. Sicaran Battle tank. This guy ignores the jink special rule and has rending on its main heavy 6 weapon. Also, Scorpuis Whirlwind with LOG to ignore cover. Park and fire 1+d3 small blast markers that are str 8 ap3. Combine that with some melta action and I think you got it covered.

You will need a Master of the Forge to play both tanks as they do have the relic of the armor special rule.

**asorel**

Red__Thirst wrote:
Again, asorel, don't list exact point values for upgrade costs such as the Flamers in your command squad. Go in and edit those out, but leave your total point cost for the unit there if you wish.

You don't want to anger the mods man, trust me.

I'll comment on the list in a bit once I'm home from work.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Will do; I somehow failed to see your first post.

**Red__Thirst**

No sweat. Just didn't want you to earn the ire of the mods is all man.

For your command squad, I would recommend going over that squad's composition with a little closer eye to who can take what. Having an apothecary in there is a great option, as is masses of flamers for piling on wounds to a high threat soft target, however that Squad still needs to be able to hurt other things as well if no good target is in Flamer range. I recommend one meltagun marine, along with one combi melta on the sergeant, and two flamers on the other two command squad members. Also, as an aside, the new space marine codex is about to hit shelves in a few days, so I'd wait on future list building till you can get your hands on it and see what it has to offer.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

**asorel**

Red__Thirst wrote:
No sweat. Just didn't want you to earn the ire of the mods is all man.

For your command squad, I would recommend going over that squad's composition with a little closer eye to who can take what. Having an apothecary in there is a great option, as is masses of flamers for piling on wounds to a high threat soft target, however that Squad still needs to be able to hurt other things as well if no good target is in Flamer range. I recommend one meltagun marine, along with one combi melta on the sergeant, and two flamers on the other two command squad members. Also, as an aside, the new space marine codex is about to hit shelves in a few days, so I'd wait on future list building till you can get your hands on it and see what it has to offer.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

As near as I can tell, there are no Sergeants in the command squadron. Or are you suggesting a loadout for the tac squads a well?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoiler:

The newest iteration. I think I've hit a good balance here. Even if that is the case, it's all moot come Saturday, but it's nice to have a baseline.

**GuardRalph**

Not many people want to sift though alot of information. See the Army Lists forum. Very concise is what your looking for. On the plus side, you won't have to write as much.

**asorel**

GuardRalph wrote:
Not many people want to sift though alot of information. See the Army Lists forum. Very concise is what your looking for. On the plus side, you won't have to write as much.

I already posted a polished list onto there, but thanks for the tip. I think I've got a good list for the theme I am approaching (drop pods erriwhere), from what critique I've seen. I'm f*cked if he brings along an Avatar of Khaine, but that's practically a given with any Salamanders army from the looks of things.

**Wolfblade**

If your eldar opponent is using full on cheese, I'd suggest counter cheese: http://elite40k.blogspot.com/2015/06/analysis-skyhammer-annihilation-force.html

Pinning/removal of overwatch, 100% chance for T1 or T2 (your choice), relentless devs, DS then assaulting ASM.

**asorel**

Wolfblade wrote:
If you're eldar opponent is using full on cheese, I'd suggest counter cheese: http://elite40k.blogspot.com/2015/06/analysis-skyhammer-annihilation-force.html

Pinning/removal of overwatch, 100% chance for T1 or T2 (your choice), relentless devs, DS then assaulting ASM.

What's the point value of that formation?

**Wolfblade**

asorel wrote:
Wolfblade wrote:
If you're eldar opponent is using full on cheese, I'd suggest counter cheese: http://elite40k.blogspot.com/2015/06/analysis-skyhammer-annihilation-force.html

Pinning/removal of overwatch, 100% chance for T1 or T2 (your choice), relentless devs, DS then assaulting ASM.

What's the point value of that formation?

Depends, atleast around 500points. With max grav cannons + combi grav on dev sarge , and 5man ASM squads, it's around 650 points. Less w/o grav weps (i.e. melta, missiles)

Which is not bad for what it brings at all.

For maxed out devs + ASM, with heavy flamers/MM/HB and a combi wep in the devs, it's 730points, leaving plenty of room for more stuff.

Keep in mind you can combat squad the devs, and shoot at 4 targets, and even if you don't get a SINGLE hit, they must test on 3D6 morale test, fail = go to ground, pass = can't fire overwatch.

**asorel**

Wolfblade wrote:

Depends, atleast around 500points. With max grav cannons + combi grav on dev sarge , and 5man ASM squads, it's around 650 points. Less w/o grav weps (i.e. melta, missiles)

Which is not bad for what it brings at all.

For maxed out devs + ASM, with heavy flamers/MM/HB and a combi wep in the devs, it's 730points, leaving plenty of room for more stuff.

Keep in mind you can combat squad the devs, and shoot at 4 targets, and even if you don't get a SINGLE hit, they must test on 3D6 morale test, fail = go to ground, pass = can't fire overwatch.

Looking at the unique rules, that certainly is potent, though the point value means I'll have to rebuild my army around it. Any suggestions for the rest of the army? I was thinking He'Stan and a command squad, with perhaps a tac squad to eat up the rest of the points. All in drop pods, of course.

**Wolfblade**

asorel wrote:
Wolfblade wrote:

Depends, atleast around 500points. With max grav cannons + combi grav on dev sarge , and 5man ASM squads, it's around 650 points. Less w/o grav weps (i.e. melta, missiles)

Which is not bad for what it brings at all.

For maxed out devs + ASM, with heavy flamers/MM/HB and a combi wep in the devs, it's 730points, leaving plenty of room for more stuff.

Keep in mind you can combat squad the devs, and shoot at 4 targets, and even if you don't get a SINGLE hit, they must test on 3D6 morale test, fail = go to ground, pass = can't fire overwatch.

Looking at the unique rules, that certainly is potent, though the point value means I'll have to rebuild my army around it. Any suggestions for the rest of the army? I was thinking He'Stan and a command squad, with perhaps a tac squad to eat up the rest of the points. All in drop pods, of course.

Throw in some scout bikes w/ locator beacons to help out with DSing ASM. Not sure if anyone else can take the Loc beacons, but the bikes (with infil + scout) will make sure everything lands where you want it to. I'd say these are priority over troops, so I'd take 2 squads, min size w/ loc beacons for 64pt each, total of 128, leaving you 392 points for 2 troops + HQ. tac marines being 105 for a 5man drop pod, no upgrades, and with hestan's cost, that leaves you with -8 points. So, you could drop a tac squad, and get a scout squad, giving you ~42 points to work with.

I personally would suggest a reg captain or something over he'stan in this case however, and either buy more scout bikes to keep them on the field longer in case you go second, or giving you points to upgrade those tacs, but I'm not sure of the best option here either way.