Splinter rifles... poisned or cursed?

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**Zagaboff**

So for the last 2 battles I've had little to no success with them.

Warrior squad with splinter cannon out of a raider gave me 23 shots.

22 hits

5 wounds

1 failed 4+ save...

190 points to kill 1 dire avenger, worth it?

Don't get me wrong I know the dice are not always kind, and I'm pointing out my latest failure, however

I never seem to take down more then 3 or so MEQ models. And the survivability dosent give me to many turns to pack a punch

**Massawyrm**

Simple mathhammer will show you that your dice giveth and then your dice immediately taketh away. You should average 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, with 3.75 failed saves with that salvo. You got very lucky, then very unlucky. But that unit was never going to slaughter a unit of Dire Avengers without some serious luck. You should have killed, like, four.

**Zagaboff**

Point being, 190 points for a unit (raider included) that rarely kill anything?

Where is there tactical advantage? Some units pack a punch others have staying power, what can warriors do??

**Raven Cowl**

Zagaboff wrote:
Point being, 190 points for a unit (raider included) that rarely kill anything?

Where is there tactical advantage? Some units pack a punch others have staying power, what can warriors do??

And now you've found the glaring weakness of warriors. I find they're better sent after units likes terminators/MCs with higher toughness and forcing multiple saves. going after Toughness 3 blows. 7th edition poison rules are not kind at all.

**Bharring**

Its more 135 points than 190.

If it is 190, then you destroy DAs on average. Sure, you only kill about 4/round. But DAs have to kill the Raider first. 10-man clocks in at 130 pts, and does 20x(2/3)(1/6)(1/2) HP to a jinking Raider. That's 20/9, or little more than 2. So it should take two rounds of DAs shooting, giving you almost 8 dead DAs and costing you just the Raider.

DAs are a poor target for Poisoned weapons. Sure, they die 50% faster than Marines for the same cost, but you just don't usually get enough kick out of it for it to be worth it.

**Wulfmar**

Genuine question: Have splinter weapons changed in the new codex 7th Ed.? I'm still in 6th with the old Dark Eldar codex.

Does anyone have the weapon profile?

**Bharring**

As Boltgun, but S1 Poisoned

**Wulfmar**

I see, I'm assuming 4+ poisoned

I'm also assuming the OP has splinter racks on the raider to make 22/23 hits. To be fair, I think this is a case of shoddy rolling and the laughter of the dice Gods.

A middle-of-the-road rolling would surely be 22/23 (assuming this bit is the same) followed by 11 wounds, then 5 or 6 kills

(I'm not missing out something new in 7th or some unforeseen shenanigans in the Eldar codex?)

**vipoid**

Zagaboff wrote:
So for the last 2 battles I've had little to no success with them.

Warrior squad with splinter cannon out of a raider gave me 23 shots.

22 hits

5 wounds

1 failed 4+ save...

Well, statistically you were just unlucky in your example.

Zagaboff wrote:

190 points to kill 1 dire avenger, worth it?

190? What upgrades do you have exactly?

Zagaboff wrote:

Don't get me wrong I know the dice are not always kind, and I'm pointing out my latest failure, however

I never seem to take down more then 3 or so MEQ models. And the survivability dosent give me to many turns to pack a punch

Well, let's do the math on the MEQ front:

I'm assuming you have splinter racks, so 8/9 to hit, 1/2 to wound and 1/3 to get past their save. Multiplied by 23, this gives an average of 3.4 dead marines. So, killing 3 marines is what you'd expect, statistically.

Personally, I much prefer 5 Warriors with a Blaster in a Venom. They don't have rerolls, but I can have 3 of these squads for less than 2 of your raider squads. This gives me 36 poison shots at long range (statistically 4 dead marines), and a further 12-24 poison shots and 3 blaster shots at closer ranges. Really though, it's the 36" range that makes me prefer them. Raider squads have an optimum range of just 12" - which I don't find sufficient to protect them against comeuppance from their target (or other nearby units).

**the_scotsman**

What can warriors do?

Put eleven wounds. On anything with a T value that's not a WK.

Compared to any other basic infantry in the game, Warriors stack up quite well in terms of offense. Their biggest competitors are Fire Warriors, who are definitely better on foot, but the Kabals have access to the Raider which is a WAY better transport than the Hammerhead since the Kabals don't have to get out and they get free TL.

The FWs edge them out vs T4 and T3 but as soon as you hit T5 the Kabals win. I use a Splinterboat in my Harlequin list and it does wonderful stuff.

The big trouble of the de is that they're really inefficient against light infantry, light vehicles and now Gargants. Just like IG, they have a core that works really well but their peripheral units are just garbage. Scourges Reavers Splinterboats and Haemonculus formations are great, everything else is underwhelming at best. Just like IG, Nids, CSM and all the other lower tier armies ATM.

**vipoid**

the_scotsman wrote:
What can warriors do?

Put eleven wounds. On anything with a T value that's not a WK.

Compared to any other basic infantry in the game, Warriors stack up quite well in terms of offense. Their biggest competitors are Fire Warriors, who are definitely better on foot, but the Kabals have access to the Raider which is a WAY better transport than the Hammerhead since the Kabals don't have to get out and they get free TL.

The FWs edge them out vs T4 and T3 but as soon as you hit T5 the Kabals win. I use a Splinterboat in my Harlequin list and it does wonderful stuff.

The big trouble of the de is that they're really inefficient against light infantry, light vehicles and now Gargants. Just like IG, they have a core that works really well but their peripheral units are just garbage. Scourges Reavers Splinterboats and Haemonculus formations are great, everything else is underwhelming at best. Just like IG, Nids, CSM and all the other lower tier armies ATM.

The problem I have with warriors is that their weapons offer no versatility over those of their venom transports (nor can venoms be customised to fulfil other roles). And, after turn 3, they don't really get any benefit from pfp (which isn't exactly a thrilling mechanic to begin with...).

**Zagaboff**

Load out was
8 warriors
1 splinter cannon
1 sabyrite

Raider night shields and splinter racks,

I know the sabyrite isn't worth the points, but I play wusiwug and i don't really think it changes the point,

A T3 5+ troop that it's only really good at taking down high toughness targets... In my meta that's 1 riptide,

I feel like the weapons should be a higher AP, might make the glass hammer analogy fit, they just Seem like a glass vase, (somthing for the display cabinet)

**Verviedi**

Well, I'm sorry for your loss, OP. Thanks for the analogy, though. ^

**Jimsolo**

I can empathize. My Venoms have a HORRIBLE track record. 99% accuracy with shooting, then nothing but 1-3 to wound.

But Splinter weapons remain pretty damn awesome. Thinks like SM bikes, terminators, and MCs are where they shine; the weaker and more numerous the enemy the less awesome they are. They make up for THAT by being fieldable in ridiculous numbers.

Still, you've got Razorwings, Taloi, and other tools besides for dealing with bunched up, weaker opponents.

**Zagaboff**

Yeah I think I'll go more towards covens now, but in comparison ravager stock with night shields 9 shots at strength 5 ap 2 (125 pts), I've have much more success mowing down Bikes and terminators with it.

**vipoid**

Jimsolo wrote:
I can empathize. My Venoms have a HORRIBLE track record. 99% accuracy with shooting, then nothing but 1-3 to wound.

For me it's Scourges. They never get more than 50% hits against a vehicle, and usually roll at least one '1' on haywire. Literally the only time they've done well is when my opponent had no vehicles and I was shooting infantry with them. Then I don't think they missed a single shot.

Also, my Ossefactors are notorious for rolling 2s to hit about 80% of the time.

**Bharring**

Everything gets bad rolls sometimes.

My Solitaire went three rounds rolling 1s on his Kiss of Death to-hit. With rerolls, still ones. Needed a 4+ to hit. And failed his Hit and Run test. Needed just one more wound to pop the sucker, the last Synapse creature in the game.

Does that mean he totally sucks? Not at all. ID'd the first Hive Tyrant on the charge top of 2, and ID'd a Trygon top of three, too (Both only had 1hp left, but still...).

Sometimes dice rock. Sometimes dice suck. Sometimes in the same game.

(Finally got my Solitaire and DJ to actually do some work! Probably would have been better to field my DE!)

**JubbJubbz**

I play against DE a lot and warriors seem just fine to me. Especially when their in a raider that can just jink off 2/3rds of your damage while its passengers just sit inside cackling as they make you regret taking anything nurgle.

**angelofvengeance**

To the OP: Is your stuff painted or not? Sounds silly but I've found my models perform better in games when they've had a lick of paint on them!