Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Simple enough. I mean I can safely assume the reason GW had for doing so is pants-on-head, let's just piss people off, typical GW business practice, but let's try and forge the narrative here shall we and maybe discuss what the plan is now that our Spiritual Liege says the old plan isnt allowed?

I think its a move to get more RG into drop pods, as that is one of their main tactics. Also the loss of scout means that if RG want to outflank they now have to use actual Scout units, something that I myself had never considered with RG. Fluff wise RG use a lot of scouts and so having a CT that discourages the use of Scouts (by turning all your models into pseudo-scouts) is kind of counter to the fluff. However, considering that getting stealth for one turn kind of only really helped out Scouts, it was a fluffy trade I was willing to accept. Let's face it, after you scout moved, the stealth really didn't do jack, unless you were a Scout Team in cover, then Stealth worked way better because you were putting them down in heavy cover anyways. So even though stealth seemed like a useless CT, if you were taking Scouts it was okay. That being said, I only just recently added scout bikes to my RG. If the idea was to make RG more fluffy then they failed. If the idea was to make WS the only army capable of using that USR then, well I guess they succeeded. Trying to sell more grav bikers I guess.


Outflank and Scout were are a huge part of my strategy and I have to say, I'm really disappointed with this new codex.
In reality though, I'm not buying the new book and MY raven guard aren't losing scout! Lol!

Though if I were, I guess I'd be trying to make use of Shrouded for 2 turns. That could provide durability for those extra jumpy jump pack dudes, and is going to protect you way more than stealth. However, this won't matter at all to ignores cover weapons. To get around the loss of scout moves you now just have to deploy right on the line and hope your shrouded protects you. Its just too bad your transports aren't going to get any protection!

I don't know, I don't really give a crap either. At this point I have to restrain myself from dumping the whole collection on eBay.

I guess it's an attempt to emphasise the ’masters of ambush' theme in place of the 'fast assault' concept, which is arguably the White Scar's thing.

In the table, though, it does seem like a big net loss.

Yeah, see it does make sense from that standpoint, but I could argue that both armies use the USR in different ways. From a fluff perspective anyways.

I could argue that where the White Scars are using Scout to get closer so as to assault on turn 2, which is what an assault army like the Scars want, I think for them (fluff-wise) the idea is to come in shooting from under the horses neck, get into melee and break off and do it again. Whether this is how Scars actually work OTT I'm not sure. The Raven Guard use the Scout rule to set up those sneaky ambushes. Where a White Scar army might be racing across the field to get to grips with the enemy, the RG are already hidden, having moved far around the flank and on turn 3 they pop up and go "Meltaguns!".

Purely from a fluff standpoint, I think it's still debatable. The in-game consequences are a pretty hard pill. Sure the two chapter had slightly overlapping CTs, but the hit RG just took on the table because of it, why? That is just too big a blow. And what about those FW Successors whose CT is tied to the codex? I can't recall their name right now, Raptors I think? How will those armies fare?

I guess this is just me getting my codex cherry popped and it kind of really hurts. They said it would feel good to lose it, but really? I think I like girl codices now or something...

As long as it gives Shrouded to Bulky models, I think this can still work. It just won't benefit 6th edition Raven Guard lists very much. It super helps scouts, which by fluff the Raven Guard makes heavy use of. Even regular marines get a +2 cover save in ruins on the first turn. Bikes get +2 cover when jinking in the open. (Ironic, if the reason they took away Scout was to make them less like White Scars.)

I still think they really should have given us something that lasted beyond the first turn. Possibly Stealth (starting on turn 2) or Move Through Cover. Move Through Cover on jump infantry is fantastic. But I suppose only getting a boost on the first turn matches the Raven Guard lightning strike tactics. I'm not very happy about this (I really like Scout), but like I said: I think this can still work.

Also, yes, Raptors are the Raven Guard Successors from FW.

We shall see if shrouded applies to bulky and up, I mean yeah its still gonna work if that is the case, but if not?

It just really ticks me off. I'd like to think that I can just use my old codex but in reality? How long is that attitude gonna last outside of my own closed group?

Why not just use Raptors CT rule? They have scout and T1 stealth as well as rending bolters (albeit heavy1 if using rending). They just lose the AM move.

Raven Guard should have Infiltrate on their Tactical Marines.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Why not just use Raptors CT rule? They have scout and T1 stealth as well as rending bolters (albeit heavy1 if using rending). They just lose the AM move.

Not everyone has access to FW.

FW chapters + characters might change a bit with the new release too, although I wouldn't count on that..

It's a free download on the FW site. All you need is an internet connection.

Poly Ranger wrote:
It's a free download on the FW site. All you need is an internet connection.

Thats not what he means.

Anyway It might be cool with 10th company squads

Stealth + shroud + infiltrate seems intensely ambushee.

Yeah but doesn't the FW CT say to refer to the codex?

Having had a look at a screenie, yeah Shrouded is for any model not in a transport, and lasts until the start of turn 2. Plus 1 to Night Fighting roll, and the same old Winged Deliverance except you don't have to reroll HoW wounds, lol.

I mean, yeah our AsM get a bonus from both CT now, but at too high a cost I say.

Take away Scout, buff jump packs. Put out new jump pack unit for more money. Priceless GW, priceless.

One of the nice things about the CT change is that the new shrouded rule works on bulky models. Thus the new assault marines and scouts in a Raven Guard army are actually very durable and make some pretty good close assault units. When combined with the new doctrines and special rules Raven Guard might actually make jump pack assault squads worthwhile. Shocking!

Shrouding turn 1 and +1 to night fight also does a pretty good job of directly countering some of the most powerful recent army lists which do not have a lot of ignore cover but have massive alpha strikes. Thus you can deploy a bunch of scouts, TFC, etc. and take the alpha strike on 2+ cover saves (best of all if you get night fight it will counter the mechanicus unit's -1 to cover save abilities). New Raven Guard have some serious potential as a very decent close in shooting and assault army.

Their current abilities were overshadowed by white scars with Khan. So at least now they have their own thing.

darkcloak wrote:
Yeah but doesn't the FW CT say to refer to the codex?

Nope. If (like me) scout is your priority when it comes to your chapter tactics, Raptors are probably the way to go if you want something Raven Guardy. Note that there's also a (free to download) special character for the Raptors who can grant infiltrate as well. You lose out on jump pack goodness, but you can do infiltration/sabotage/rending shot shenanigans instead.

Well darn!

Guess I'm playing Raptors then! Haha. Suck it Dubs.

And also, I think I hate White Scars now. Damn them and their bikes!

darkcloak wrote:
Well darn!
And also, I think I hate White Scars now. Damn them and their bikes!

Well RG do hate White Scars in the book, so that's pretty appropriate.