Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ITC 7e FAQ on generating Psy powers:

A Psyker that chooses to substitute a generated power for the discipline’s primaris power is not

allowed to gain Psychic Focus for that discipline. This means the Psyker must generate at least one

of their remaining powers from a different psychic discipline.

This seems ass-backwards to me, that is, it shouldn't come up ... So, instead of an explanation, can I have help in citing which example is correct?

I decide to have a farseer (lvl 3) generate powers from Telepathy.
A.
Roll a 3, Terrify, don't like it so, opt to Psy-Shriek
Roll a 1, Dominate. Okay, gotta keep it.
Roll a third time, hoping for Invis.
Roll a 4th time ...

Farseer will end up with 3 powers + the Primaris.

All powers are from the same discipline so Psychic Focus applies. Correct?

B. Same farseer but different take on the process:
2 rolls get made, stuck with what ever is rolled *and* Spy-Shriek?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Then of course, there's this:

C. Same farseer, but I'm going to use the codex and RB.
Farseer starts with Runes of Fate:
Rolls a 4 Fortune!
Takes Guide
Then rolls once on Telepathy, if result is not liked then Psy-Shriek is taken as default.

Farseer ends up with 3 powers, 2 from the codex and one from the RB's Telepathy?

Correct?

If none of these are correct, could someone give an example of what is correct? Once from Telepathy only, and another example from the codex and the RB.

Thanks!

Second option looks correct.

If you swap a power for the primaris, you still only get 2 more rolls. Meaning you will only have 2 powers and the primaris, which is a waste of a roll.

Swapping an unwanted power with the primaris and still rolling another 3 times is basically having a free reroll on the table

B looks closest, but I'll break it down anyway as I'm not certain you mean what I mean:

Standard Rulebook Method:
Farseer (ML3)
First roll, Telepathy, gets Dominate (boo!), swaps for Primaris.
Second roll, Telepathy, gets Mental Fortitude, not allowed to swap (for several reasons) so have to stick with it.
Third roll, Telepathy, gets Invisibility (woo!).
Ends up with Psychic Shriek, Mental Fortitude and Invisibility (three powers).

ITC Method:
Same Farseer (ML3)
First roll, Telepathy, Dominate, swap for Shriek.
Second roll, Telepathy, Mental Fort.
Third roll - Because he already has the primaris, he must generate from a different Discipline, so cannot roll on Telepathy (boo!).

Unless there's some more context to the ITC FAQ, that's how I'd read it. But it seems unnecessary, due to the multiple prohibitions from having multiple copies of the same power on a single Psyker.
Do you happen to have a link?

Essentially that FAQ is garbage. It is a houserule, pure and simple, and should be labelled as such.

Gaining psychic focus has no benefit if you already know the primaris. What this does is force you to roll on a different table, but to what specific gaming reason I dont really know - I cant think of one

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Essentially that FAQ is garbage. It is a houserule, pure and simple, and should be labelled as such.

Gaining psychic focus has no benefit if you already know the primaris. What this does is force you to roll on a different table, but to what specific gaming reason I dont really know - I cant think of one

Given that it is a tournament FAQ,
And their own house rules is all these address,
The ask'd label is present I assess,
There is therefore no need to so attack,
The OP and leave me taken aback,
The rule is clear though enough to depress,
This odd deviation may cause a mess,
Now is time to get my message on track.

The FAQ changes a basic rule of play,
Forcing strange choices for psychic powers,
Dropping for prime is less beneficial,
I hope this odd change is not there to stay,
Over the tourney's ITC towers,
Harm to this format aint superficial.

It shouldn't change anything in tourney play - if you've declared all your rolls will be Runes of Fate, there is no reason whatsoever to trade anything for the primaris, as you'll get it anyways. And you must decide what tables you're rolling on before you roll.

In casual play, it'd be dumb. You might what to be Telepathy heavy, but not want to rock the Invis. Or, in the last book, usually when I rolled Death Mission, I took the primaris despite getting it for free on principle. But neither really matter on a competitive level.

Bharring wrote:
And you must decide what tables you're rolling on before you roll.

Can you provide a page reference for this claim?

I really have no idea what that ruling is supposed to do. It's in the Nova FAQ too and I've never gotten a good answer.

Here's the link:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/

To clarify for those Across-the-Pond, the ITC FAQ is many TOs and players contributing to a FAQ that makes GW rules more functional for tourneys.

The Independent Tournament Circuit is a ranking system. Participating in events generate points, even if you finish last at your event. It categorizes you by each army you play and other stuff. At the end of the 2015 year (next Feb) prizes are handed out. I believe it will be as it was this year, the Las Vegas Open.

Most of the rulings are very helpful.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have no problem selecting powers the way the RB lays it out.

I'm with you MastSlowPoke, I just can't wrap my head around what the FAQ is stating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A fellow ITC buddy pointed out that it is a nerf. Once you default to Prymaris, you're done with that table and then must go to another.

Not a horrendous nerf, IMHO.

For those that think it is a silly ruling, several events give ITC points, but have their own House Rules or ignore the ITC FAQ.

Thanks, guys.

It is a silly ruling, in that it is not a FAQ - I have *never* seen anyone ask this question (presumably - can i keep rolling on the table once I swap one power) anywhere, online or in real life. Its just baffling.

It is, for sure, a definite change to the BRB rules, and I really dont see what horrendous advantage is lost by using this rule, instead of the utterly straightforward BRB rule.

I am not sure if this explicitly is the intent, but it seems a combination of the bolded sections from the Primaris Power

"Immediately after generating a psychic power, a Pysker can always choose to substitute the power generated for the discipline's primaris power." along with the "if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline's primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers."

This is further amplified in that "Remember a though, that a Psyker cannot have the same power twice".

What this means is that in the below example

Mastery level 3 Pysker

1st roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Hallucination and decides he wants Psychic Shriek instead.
2nd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Mental Fortitude.
3rd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Invis (what he really wanted).
The Pysker only knows Telepathy, thus gets Psychic Focus and Psychic Shriek a second time. This is disallowed as the Pysker was also not able to sub any of the powers he rolled since he is gaining Pyschic Focus.

Notice the dilemma?

Now The ITC way is where you can not end up like the above psyker. Essentially you read the "if a Psyker has chosen all his powers etc etc etc" as...the Psyker chose to go for the Psychic Focus to begin with and this is the only way to gain Psychic Focus.

Effectively the RAI (quite poorly) and the entire point of the ITC FAQ say: A psyker either chooses to go for a Psychic Focus or a Pysker chooses to go for multiple disciplines. This is handled while rolling for each power in a row by making the choice occur once you choose to substitute for a primaris power, as now you can not gain Psychic Focus according to the RAI.

SilverSaint wrote:
I am not sure if this explicitly is the intent, but it seems a combination of the bolded sections from the Primaris Power

"Immediately after generating a psychic power, a Pysker can always choose to substitute the power generated for the discipline's primaris power." along with the "if a Psyker has chosen all of his powers from the same psychic discipline to gain Psychic Focus, he will already know that discipline's primaris power and so cannot substitute any of his randomly generated powers."

This is further amplified in that "Remember a though, that a Psyker cannot have the same power twice".

What this means is that in the below example

Mastery level 3 Pysker

1st roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Hallucination and decides he wants Psychic Shriek instead.
2nd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Mental Fortitude.
3rd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Invis (what he really wanted).
The Pysker only knows Telepathy, thus gets Psychic Focus and Psychic Shriek a second time. This is disallowed as the Pysker was also not able to sub any of the powers he rolled since he is gaining Pyschic Focus.

Notice the dilemma?

Now The ITC way is where you can not end up like the above psyker. Essentially you read the "if a Psyker has chosen all his powers etc etc etc" as...the Psyker chose to go for the Psychic Focus to begin with and this is the only way to gain Psychic Focus.

Effectively the RAI (quite poorly) and the entire point of the ITC FAQ say: A psyker either chooses to go for a Psychic Focus or a Pysker chooses to go for multiple disciplines. This is handled while rolling for each power in a row by making the choice occur once you choose to substitute for a primaris power, as now you can not gain Psychic Focus according to the RAI.

The problem is the way the itc rule is worded your lvl 3 psyker going for invis should never swap for the primas power. The OP asked for an example, as none of his are correct.

Mastery level 3 Pysker

1st roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Hallucinatio.
2nd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Mental Fortitude.
3rd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Invis (what he really wanted).
The Pysker only knows Telepathy, thus gets Psychic Focus and Psychic Shriek

With the itc rule

1st roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Hallucination and decides he wants Psychic Shriek instead.
2nd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Mental Fortitude.
3rd roll: Cannot be on telepathy. Must role on any other table.

 DJGietzen wrote:

The problem is the way the itc rule is worded your lvl 3 psyker going for invis should never swap for the primas power. The OP asked for an example, as none of his are correct.

Mastery level 3 Pysker

1st roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Hallucinatio.
2nd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Mental Fortitude.
3rd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Invis (what he really wanted).
The Pysker only knows Telepathy, thus gets Psychic Focus and Psychic Shriek

With the itc rule

1st roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Hallucination and decides he wants Psychic Shriek instead.
2nd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Mental Fortitude.
3rd roll: Cannot be on telepathy. Must role on any other table.

My point for that example was ITS INCORRECT and is the reason behind the ITC ruling since THAT example is against RAI. Since we have to only use examples.

Assume Mastery level 3 and ITC FAQ Compare

Incorrect Example 1:
Rolls on telepathy, gets hallucinate takes pyschic shriek
Rolls on telepathy, gets invis
Rolls on divination, gets Foreboding, takes prescience.

Correct Example 1:
Rolls on telepathy, gets invis
Rolls on telepathy, gets hallucinate, takes psychic shriek
Rolls on divination, gets foreboding

In this scenario "Incorrect Example 1" is "legal" if rearranged, but if you follow the example of "Incorrect Example 1" you can create problems as seen in "Incorrect Example 2" below. Notice how the psyker in "Incorrect Example 2" is short a power as compared to "Correct Example 2"? This is the difference in using the ITC ruling vs not. Also "Incorrect Example 2" is actually ILLEGAL using RAI, though its incredibly unclear. The ITC ruling adds a rule that effectively simplifies an entire wall of near incomprehensible text into a simple sentence that if followed will insure you always roll for psyhic disciplines correctly.

Incorrect Example 2:
Rolls on telepathy, gets hallucinate, takes psychic shriek
Rolls on telepathy, gets shrouding
Rolls on telepathy, gets invis

Correct Example 2:
Rolls on telepathy, gets hallucinate
Rolls on telepathy, gets shrouding
Rolls on telepathy, gets invis
Since all powers were from telepathy psychic shriek is gained

I got an e-mail from the TO who will matter at the venue. DJGietzen, you almost got it.

 DJGietzen wrote:
The problem is the way the itc rule is worded your lvl 3 psyker going for invis should never swap for the primas power. The OP asked for an example, as none of his are correct.

Mastery level 3 Pysker

1st roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Hallucinatio.
2nd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Mental Fortitude.
3rd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Invis (what he really wanted).
The Pysker only knows Telepathy, thus gets Psychic Focus and Psychic Shriek

With the itc rule

1st roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Hallucination and decides he wants Psychic Shriek instead.
2nd roll: Rolls on Telepathy, gets Mental Fortitude.

Almost! Once the player defaults to the Primaris, he's done on that table and must switch to another, like Biomancy or Pyro or whatever. So that 2nd roll would have to be on Bio or Pyro ... instead of how you wrote it for Step 3.

 DJGietzen wrote:
3rd roll: Cannot be on telepathy. Must role on any other table.

Thanks, guys!