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i saw the ork topic and wondered if there are any for CSM.

Seems a bit desperate ;-)

Invisibility from belakor and invuknerability from the grimoire have been hacks for a while.


You can do very interesting stuff with the renegade lists.
The ordnance tyrant in particular is pretty nasty if you have enough artillery.

So as a hack say, grimoire a unit of blood slaughterers, have them charge up field and if they get bogged down by infantry just plaster the combat with artillery fire that the BS are immune to.

Or mix with DK and as many maulerfiends as will fit .

We only cheat ourselves...

But all seriousness, there's not much to exploit. Maybe the spell familiars are Must Haves, but everything Chaos gets now is sub par.

Apart from the spell familiars as you mention and deamon weapons, CSM are subpar. Not chaos though. Both renegades and deamons are very strong. Nothing in comparison to the new dexes mind.

Vanilla CSM is sort of in a position where the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer. So, after awhile, everything starts to look like nails.

CSM can really excel when you run MTO style lists full of maulerfiends, spawn, heldrakes, nurgle bikes, obliterators, termicide squads, etc. Basically, forcing your opponent to not have the luxury to pick his targets since he's probably gonna be overwhelmed by turn two.

This strategy works great when opponent just happens to be a "nail", aka someone who will be overwhelmed. The problem arises when you start facing armies that are not "nails".

Some armies are like "screws", sure, you can nail them down, but it wont be pretty. They're the armies that can outmaneuver you OR put so much firepower downfield that you just cant reach them. Armies like AM, DE, and Necrons fill this category. You may corner them, but it wont be pretty.

Some armies are like "nuts and bolts" . Because they both shoot the heck out of you while flying circles around you. Miracles do happen, but these are the sort of battles that are pretty one sided from the beginning. Armies like Tau and Eldar fill this category and last i check, It's pretty hard to tighten a bolt with a hammer.

By no means do I not like playing my CSM, It's probably my favorite army. I'ts just gets disheartening to only have a hammer in a nuts and bolts world.

One thing: Tzeenakh the Occluder. Points cost for that thing is almost cheating.

Put it on a Rhino that hides in reserve and force your opponent to invest significant resources into killing it.

 Mr_Piddlez wrote:
Vanilla CSM is sort of in a position where the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer. So, after awhile, everything starts to look like nails.

CSM can really excel when you run MTO style lists full of maulerfiends, spawn, heldrakes, nurgle bikes, obliterators, termicide squads, etc. Basically, forcing your opponent to not have the luxury to pick his targets since he's probably gonna be overwhelmed by turn two.

This strategy works great when opponent just happens to be a "nail", aka someone who will be overwhelmed. The problem arises when you start facing armies that are not "nails".

Some armies are like "screws", sure, you can nail them down, but it wont be pretty. They're the armies that can outmaneuver you OR put so much firepower downfield that you just cant reach them. Armies like AM, DE, and Necrons fill this category. You may corner them, but it wont be pretty.

Some armies are like "nuts and bolts" . Because they both shoot the heck out of you while flying circles around you. Miracles do happen, but these are the sort of battles that are pretty one sided from the beginning. Armies like Tau and Eldar fill this category and last i check, It's pretty hard to tighten a bolt with a hammer.

By no means do I not like playing my CSM, It's probably my favorite army. I'ts just gets disheartening to only have a hammer in a nuts and bolts world.

Beautifully stated.

The one thing I would add is that IA:13 does wonders for a CSM force. Fire Raptors, Sicarans, Rapier Batteries with conversion beamers make vanilla CSMs a lot more interesting. Most of the CSM players at my FLGS use some sort of Forgeworld these days (Sicaran spam, ordinance spam and Renegade allies are very underappreciated.)

To apply the metaphor, it's like going from a clawhammer to a sledgehammer that will sometimes break the board.

 techsoldaten wrote:
...

Beautifully stated.

The one thing I would add is that IA:13 does wonders for a CSM force. Fire Raptors, Sicarans, Rapier Batteries with conversion beamers make vanilla CSMs a lot more interesting. Most of the CSM players at my FLGS use some sort of Forgeworld these days (Sicaran spam, ordinance spam and Renegade allies are very underappreciated.)

To apply the metaphor, it's like going from a clawhammer to a sledgehammer that will sometimes break the board.

The thing is that loyalist also have a IA book which gives them about the same (minus the renegades) so if a loyalist brings FW, you're still boned on the non-FW part of your army

DaPino wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
...

Beautifully stated.

The one thing I would add is that IA:13 does wonders for a CSM force. Fire Raptors, Sicarans, Rapier Batteries with conversion beamers make vanilla CSMs a lot more interesting. Most of the CSM players at my FLGS use some sort of Forgeworld these days (Sicaran spam, ordinance spam and Renegade allies are very underappreciated.)

To apply the metaphor, it's like going from a clawhammer to a sledgehammer that will sometimes break the board.

The thing is that loyalist also have a IA book which gives them about the same (minus the renegades) so if a loyalist brings FW, you're still boned on the non-FW part of your army

Loyalist sicaran does not have Rending heavy bolters, that's a pretty big plus (same S5 Rending as Pask has, but AP4 for med infantry (and less shots), for half the points).

IA:13 Renegades and heretics is the CSM "cheat". Just play that army. It's tons of fluff, tons of fun, and can really lay down some hurt.

What is this free points i keep hearing about in formations? Does IA:13 have any free points or exploits? Any videos on how to build expensive FW models from scratch? How do I find and buy renegades heretic platoons and vehicles?

 Filch wrote:
What is this free points i keep hearing about in formations? Does IA:13 have any free points or exploits? Any videos on how to build expensive FW models from scratch? How do I find and buy renegades heretic platoons and vehicles?

You can buy and covnert imperial guard for the most part...or buy directly from forgeworld.

The only "exploit"ish part IA13has, is maybe using hullpoints to reroll dice when trying to cast powers and a grimoire of sorts for khorne daemons.
The siege of vraks book lets you shoot blasts at your own guys.

And lawl to free points...what are you?...IoM?

 gwarsh41 wrote:
IA:13 Renegades and heretics is the CSM "cheat". Just play that army. It's tons of fluff, tons of fun, and can really lay down some hurt.

That army list doesn't contain marines, which is unsurprisingly the point of Chaos Space MARINES.

I wish the Tzeentch demonkin book would hurry up.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
IA:13 Renegades and heretics is the CSM "cheat". Just play that army. It's tons of fluff, tons of fun, and can really lay down some hurt.

That army list doesn't contain marines, which is unsurprisingly the point of Chaos Space MARINES.

Sure it does. CSM squads are elites.

And you can always ally-in some much-needed backup from the Renegades list to a CSM army.

Not that it really does anything for those who want to stick to vanilla CSMs, but even that codex has cultists and such. More regular humans is super fluffy and not a big stretch from the main codex.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 gwarsh41 wrote:
IA:13 Renegades and heretics is the CSM "cheat". Just play that army. It's tons of fluff, tons of fun, and can really lay down some hurt.

That army list doesn't contain marines, which is unsurprisingly the point of Chaos Space MARINES.

Sure it does. CSM squads are elites.

No they aren't. The current Renegades list don't get CSMs. The closest you get is if your Warlord has Covenant of Slaanesh you may take 1 Noise Marine squad.

Roknar wrote:

 Filch wrote:
What is this free points i keep hearing about in formations? Does IA:13 have any free points or exploits? Any videos on how to build expensive FW models from scratch? How do I find and buy renegades heretic platoons and vehicles?

You can buy and covnert imperial guard for the most part...or buy directly from forgeworld.

The only "exploit"ish part IA13has, is maybe using hullpoints to reroll dice when trying to cast powers and a grimoire of sorts for khorne daemons.
The siege of vraks book lets you shoot blasts at your own guys.

And lawl to free points...what are you?...IoM?

Spoiler:

dark souls reference if you didn't get it