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Is it possible for one of the black knights in a command squad to be both an apothecary and the bearer of the special grenade launcher (both on one model)? The question came up in our group - we couldn't agree unanimously on it.

My gut says no, but I'm sure the fine minds here at dakka can set me straight (or prove me right)

Thanks in advance!

Apothecaries tend to be contentious issues in many SM codexes.

The upgrade specifically calls out a "Ravenwing Black Knight", but once the Apothecary has been upgraded, he isn't a Black Knight anymore - he's a Ravenwing Apothecary.

GW does have a different wording available if they meant that any model could take it, and that is "Any model may be upgraded with...", used in other entries. For example (looking at the opposite page), Scouts have an "any model" upgrade for sniper rifles, but a "One Scout" entry for the heavy weapon - meaning the Sergeant can take a sniper rifle but not a missile launcher.

The contentious part is that some people say that you can take a RW BK, upgrade the Talon to the GL and then upgrade that BK into an Apothecary. This has occasionally been confirmed as correct (the previous edition Ork codex could use this "sequential upgrade" for a boyz Nob with a Shoota and a Power Klaw), but issues always arise from attempting to cross-pollinate from a now obsolete FAQ to a current Codex.

{Edit} The newly-published SM codex has reportedly kept the previous wording, so expect this to still be an issue when DA get a new codex in a few weeks. {/Edit}

The rules say:

"One RBK may replace his plasma talon with a RW grenade launcher."
"One RBK may be upgraded to a RW Apothecary, replacing their bolt pistol with a narthecium."

If Brother Eriduial replaces his talon with a launcher, has one model done so? Yes.
If Brother Eriduial also replaces his pistol with a narthecium, has one model done so? Yes.

So, yes, the same model may do both, so long as the order is first take the launcher, then upgrade to Apothecary.

Of course, this question will (hopefully) be a moot point in a few weeks with the release of the new Dark Angels codex.

Thanks for the speedy responses, folks. It sounds like when taken RAW there is nothing preventing this, but when considering RAI it can be construed as fishy?

I appreciate the responses.

Yeah it's a timing thing, so take launcher, then take apothecary on same model, gw has shown this worka fine.

GW showed it worked okay for one specific case. That hardly sets a precedent for other cases, especially when they use the name of a specific type of model in the unit versus the phrase "any model".

I've been back and forth on this. Right now I think I'd say its not possible. As Quanar said the upgrade specifically calls out the black knight. Far to often in the DA codex and other marine codexes have options worded like "A Sargent or Veteran Sargent may ..." so this tells me that the RAI is for the options for X not to be available if you upgrade X to Y unless the options is specifically available for Y as well.

But a RBK is still an RBK after taking the grenade launcher

 jokerkd wrote:
But a RBK is still an RBK after taking the grenade launcher

Yes, so why not use the "Any model" terminology? There is no reason to specifically say that a Black Knight can take the upgrade other than one of:
A) Only a Black Knight is meant to take it.
B) GW doesn't even think the wording through, allocating them at random (that's not sarcasm, but an actual real possibility). Or simply each entry is written by a different writer, but the intent is that any upgrade can be taken in any order.

So whilst I am of the opinion it's intent may be "A", simply because it may break other unit entires, having a GL on the Apoth is far from game-breaking, and I wouldn't even blink if an opponent brought such a model.

Great posts, thanks again for your input. I am not sold on the "any model" terminology, however - that wording usually applies when multiple models can take an upgrade. In the case of the RW GL, they only want one per squad, so it is a little more tricky. I think if I got my own command squad, I would model them separately to be safe. Thank you for hashing this out with me.

 zgort wrote:
Great posts, thanks again for your input. I am not sold on the "any model" terminology, however - that wording usually applies when multiple models can take an upgrade. In the case of the RW GL, they only want one per squad, so it is a little more tricky.

Not really. Look at the Company Veteran Squad where it says "Up to three models...". It indicates that any three models can take the upgrade, regardless whether the model is a Veteran or a Veteran Sergeant. The number of models you can upgrade doesn't change which type of models the upgrade says it can be applied to.

The more a read about unit options and potential interactions the more I think the RAI is that options are taken not one at a time but simultaneously. The best way to describe it is treat each option as if it was the last one you took. So if you wanted to take options A B and C, when you apply A assume B & C are already applied, when you apply B assume A & C are already applied, and when you apply C assume A & B are already applied. Taking this approach you would not be able to upgrade to an apothecary and take the fancy weapon on just the one model.

Does it really matter?

One member of the BK's command squad has an grenade launcher, as he is allowed to take (changing the bike, not the model riding the bike). If it is also an Apothecary riding that bike then so what? He isn't an IC, cannot be challenged same as any other BK, and has the same stats as any other BK. All it means is that if someone has precision shots (e.g snipers), then they can take out 2 important bits of kit with one hit. I could understand the question being raised if the Apothecary had better BS, meaning that grenades would scatter less, but as he is exactly the same as anyone else in the squad it is simply a question of how the person wants to model his unit.

It seems more like quibbling for the sake of quibbling, arguing over "upgrade order" for something that makes no difference. If anything, I would say it is far more harmful to have both your FNP and Grenade launcher on one bike, but that's just me.

 Garrlor wrote:
Does it really matter?

One member of the BK's command squad has an grenade launcher, as he is allowed to take (changing the bike, not the model riding the bike). If it is also an Apothecary riding that bike then so what? He isn't an IC, cannot be challenged same as any other BK, and has the same stats as any other BK. All it means is that if someone has precision shots (e.g snipers), then they can take out 2 important bits of kit with one hit. I could understand the question being raised if the Apothecary had better BS, meaning that grenades would scatter less, but as he is exactly the same as anyone else in the squad it is simply a question of how the person wants to model his unit.

It seems more like quibbling for the sake of quibbling, arguing over "upgrade order" for something that makes no difference. If anything, I would say it is far more harmful to have both your FNP and Grenade launcher on one bike, but that's just me.

The Apothecary actually is a character (just not an IC), so can accept challenges and use Look Out Sir! to avoid being sniped. As I said in my post above, this particular instance isn't game-breaking (in my opinion), but the exact same logic applied elsewhere is the difference between five plasma guns and an Apothecary or four plasma guns and an Apothecary in other command squads in both the DA and other Space Marine codexes, and has been a source of disagreement for several editions

I didn't realize the apothecary is a character. Learn something new every day.