Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I can't come close to topping what Thud and others said. Bravo guys. But I'll stick my oar in anyway. To the OP (and Easy E): Inertia, bubbles, and a degree of institutionalisation that'd make Brooks Hatlen take a step back and exclaim 'buddy, there's something wrong with you."

XdeadpoolX wrote:
Thats an easy one. How many GW stores have an intro table where the staff member will play a fun and friendly game with you and explain the rules and phases? Every single one of them!

Now tell me where you can go to learn any other system of gaming where you can just walk in and get a intro game that isn't a local gaming group bringing a friend into the fold. Yes i am sure you could think of a few but GW has that market cornered.

I joined a club where I didn't previously know anyone and promptly introduced them to Hail Caesar and Black Powder. Sure, it can be a bit more convenient in GW (though how much since so many changed to one-man stores? And what about the ones still crowded with aromatic neckbeards...?) but like I'm fond of arguing, that doesn't make it completely impossible anywhere else, and might not even be that beneficial in certain ways, to gamers and to GW itself. That's that third thing I mentioned above. Some gamers, weirdly enough, gather together the resources to put on intro games for the systems they like and want others to try. I've done it myself, once or twice. (It helps that many, many games don't cost nearly as much as GW rules and armies, and that some minis can be used for multiple games.)

Massawyrm wrote:Garage gamers, the silent majority. There exists a large group of gamers who only play with a friend or two in their basement or garage. If they buy from a store at all, they show up once every few months, buy several hundred dollars worth of kits and are rarely seen again. They don't typically frequent forums, they don't play in tournaments, they don't always even stick with the most recently updated rules. They just drink a few beers, roll some dice and shoot the breeze with their buddies.

I agree with this, mostly...

They're the reason GW has shifted away from the tournament scene and towards "Play how you want," and why GW employees refer to the forums as the loud 1%. Balance isn't an issue with these players; for them COOL is king. They're the market GW is chasing, as they're the ones keeping the lights on.

... but not this. I play in clubs where I know (and, this is crucial, get to know) other gamers, and over kitchen tables. I don't play in GW stores, FLGSs, and definitely not in tournaments, not since my round of vets got shoved out of GW Belfast. Socialisation is the thing, but it helps to do it with good, well written games, otherwise you might as well be shooting the breeze by watching movies or... traffic. I don't like playing games I don't like, strangely enough, which largely boils down to badly written games that provide all the stimulation of rolling a dice to see if you land on a snake or a ladder, but cost a truckload more. I'm fortunate that the folks I play with mostly gravitate towards the type of games I do like, too. I don't know if playing bad games - feeling like nails-on-blackboard for a whole evening - necessarily makes or merely leaves the socialisation completely enjoyable..
Which is a drawn-out way to say, I don't doubt that part of that demographic is only looking to spend piles of money so they have brightly coloured objects to look at while they sink beers, but not all of it.

deviantduck wrote:And almost every person buys all of their GW merch at full price from our FLGS, myself included.

I don't think you lot are going to be enough to save them.

Accolade wrote:well, I guess GW will be able to just knock the "S" off their signs and consider THAT their fancy new makeover.

They could call themselves WorkHOP and sell pancakes?

(FinecakesTM made from plaster instead of flour and sold for $20 each)

Azreal13 wrote:Point of order, The Crown wouldn't step in to save anything, we're a constitutional monarchy, it would be the government that stepped in.

The Queen's not actually in charge you know!

Amazing how many people don't seem to get this.

JamesY wrote:Yeah I think people forget just how tiny a market wargaming really is, and, as hobbies go, it isn't that expensive.

If you start talking about ferraris and golf clubs I'm going to reach through the screen and do bad things.

Wargaming, as a whole, is not as expensive as other hobbies. That doesn't mean that it can't be expensive at all, or that the expense is worth the value, and GW is the poster child for that. The two main reasons people give for quitting, that I keep seeing, are rules churn and the fact that it just costs too much.

Lanrak wrote:
I suppose the only reason GW plc is still going is that there are some people who have a similar high valuation of GW IP as Tom Kirby does.
Either because of total engagement in the background and art.
Or the sheer desperation of ''I have spent so much on GW stuff, I HAVE to keep trying to make it work buy buying new stuff when it comes out.''

Ha! And those are two of the main reasons for sticking, that I keep seeing. That engagement with the story somehow requires masses of little plastic ornaments, and the sunk cost fallacy. (Not a lot that the game itself is much good, tho)

MWHistorian wrote:Sega (and other console makers) used to sell consoles at a loss. (Maybe still do?)

I can personally verify that Sega don't sell consoles anymore. Pardon me while I go cradle my old Saturn.

NoPoet wrote:Regarding the rules not working at different sizes. 40K, as presented, is a game about large-scale battles.

Aye, as presented. Not as originally developed.

Nothing whatsoever in the rules or any of their published material (except, obviously, Kill Team stuff) even suggests that people should play the game with six models a side. Why would you do that? That's what Necromunda and Gorkamorka are for.

Who said anything about six models? (Mind you, from some tales I've heard about grey knights...)

And those rules DO work - Necromunda is the best game the GW ever produced.

Wasn't that basically 2d ed 40K with no squads and a slightly wonky campaign system? Maybe not the best argument for 40K as a mass battle system, especially if Necromunda is the best rendition of it.
(I only 'discovered' 40K during 3rd ed, meself; but when some of us got round to looking at Necromunda, the rules weren't exactly a completely new experience)

They also don't suggest you play with ten thousand models per side. That's what Epic is for.

Hyperbole, or...?

Epic was overloaded with rules in its Space Marine days, but it was an insane amount of fun. They killed it almost totally by simplifying the rules due to player complaints.

Dunno about Epic 40K, but Epic: Armageddon is insane fun, mostly because the mission was to avoid overloading it with rules, and let the tactical mechanics shine through.

40K is often presented by the GW themselves as a game where around 1500-2000 point battles are ideal,

I'm gonna be honest with ye, these days I view 'presented by GW' with a similar amount of trust and enthusiasm as... 'written and directed by George Lucas', or 'a brand new miniatures line by wargames legend Tony Reidy!' Roughly how many models or units is 1500-2000 points, in seventh ed? (Genuine question) How much has that count changed over editions? What points level do folks really play?

with larger games of 15000 points or so covered by Apocalypse.

Ah, Apocalypse, where a single turn lasts longer than an entire game of Epic. Fantastic example of how 40K is geared for mass battles.

It's hardly amazing that the rules don't always hold up when you're playing on a scale that many or most people simply won't play, and that the developers wouldn't have intended.

Which scale is that, and who's playing it? As far as I can tell, this is what the developers intended.

Vyxen wrote:
By the way, I think you guys all overthink it. Warhammer stuff has nice boxes with nice artwork, good presentation, and good store presence. There's a pretty good variety of different looking armies

I think you're not thinking about it enough. It's not about 'number of arms and guns and fings', and the magpie effect doesn't cut it when there are so many other factors working against Warhammer, that've been gone over at length in this topic and others. At least some of them are adding up (well...) to less and less revenue and profits for GW. 'Nice boxes' aren't going to save them from that.

so something for everyone.

No. My goodness, there's so much I could say about those four wee words, but just, no, not really.

The higher price works both ways too. A lot of you guys who have been playing this game since before I was born remember things being really cheap and are all mad that things are expensive now.

I discovered GW about, oh... 2001? So a fair bit ago, I suppose, but not as far back as others. I was pretty enamoured with GW too, and enjoyed it while it lasted, but it didn't last long. It might surprise you, but price wasn't the only or even the biggest reason why I left; although, even though I was gone before the prices went really crazy (goldsword, witch elf, freebooter crazy), the cost of building up huge 40K and FB armies still helped put me off.

But believe it or not, a lot of fresh eyes looking at games have money to spend, and when they look at something that's pricier and has a slick box, and especially when they see rows and rows of stuff, they figure it's better to get into than the dinky game in the corner with half a shelf of cheap miniatures.

"Cheap" isn't always a good way to sell things. I mean, if someone can't afford it, sure it matters. But if there's not really any difference between spending $100 and $50, and the $100 "feels" like it's worth more, a lot of people will buy the $100 option. It's why people buy branded instead of white label at the grocery store, why the most expensive balsamic vinegar outsells the cheapest, and why Starbucks has an ordering lineup when the diner with the dollar coffee is empty.

One of the biggest reasons I see for people dropping GW's two core games is because it's getting too expensive for all that it is. I've even heard anecdotes that new kids in some gaming stores look at GW prices, sneer, then go for that 'dinky game in the corner'. Same as a lot of the old ex-GW grognards. (Have you heard the term 'grognard' yet?) Again, the worsening financial reports from GW and the apparent boom in the rest of the wargaming market help support that.
When you're trying to convince people on huge model armies of cheap, mass produced plastic (and with decidedly inferior rules) 'cheap' is a brilliant way to sell things. You might think differently if your purchasing decisions are entirely based on what looks 'cool' or 'badass' or whatnot, and fair enough, but in that case I don't think it's likely you're going to do very much of the mass army building that GW demands and, until now, relies upon. If you try to do and buy something that relates to the rulebooks - to the games produced by Games Workshop - then all the hikes, imbalance, churn, invalidation, and sheer ruthless greed may eventually wear you down. Or not.

And if you think there's no difference between spending $50 and $100, then well done you, I suppose.

Edit: ha, ninja'd by Deadnight. What he said.

 keezus wrote:

-edit- I'm a bit dismayed with some of the responses to Vyxen: Honesetly, if people believe that the product that GW is putting out is providing good value... there's no need to rain all over their enthusiasm. To a new entrant to the hobby, the pricing structure of the past really isn't here nor there.

I think Vyxen had the bad fortune to wander into a howlers situation.

Don't take it too personally, Vyxen! We don't want to chase you off under a shower of, um... invective. Like we said, we do know what it's like to be excited and enthusiastic about a new hobby or a game. It's just that for some of us, the head-scratching changes constantly implemented by GW (not just price rises) mean that we don't get that from them so much, anymore, compared to other games in the hobby; and it looks like it's slowly killing the company, which we wouldn't argue about if we didn't still care about the game or the miniatures or the setting in some way, or the gamers who might be left high and dry to some extent.

Deadnight wrote:
Agreed.

Just being fair here, but being a 'doomsayers of gw' and 'curbing enthusiasm for the hobby' are not necessarily the same thing. With respect, gw isn't 'the hobby' either,many those 'doomsayers' (apparently I am one now because I disagreed with vyxen?) are also fully capable of enjoying, and being enthusiastic about other aspects than just competitive gaming.

I applaud enthusiasm. I also applaud honest discourse and objective attitudes. You can have both.,..

And I'm exalting and agreeing with this. I am one of the 'doomsayers', so to speak. People can enjoy GW products, and do so for years, I'm not holding a gun to their heads. But there's a strong possibility that somewhere down the line, GW will do something - or a bunch of small things - that'll sour the experience for them ('I've got loadsamoney' and 'other things are expensive' only work up to a point) and it seems to be happening at a faster rate that is actually impacting on their bottom line. GW might not go anywhere soon, but it's going somewhere eventually - like a blindfolded speed freak on a motorcycle, kicking cheering spectators in the groin as it zooms past, and there's a clifftop in sight.

So yeah, enjoy GW products. But cast a sideways glance at something outside the secure compound once in a while. It might just keep you in this great hobby, if the novelty fades. It might even expand your hobby and your enjoyment of it in the meantime.

Talys wrote:@vermis - a lot of people in the anti-GW crowd make the assumption that GW fans don't try out other stuff. They can't understand how someone could 'glance sideways' and not see that there is so much better out there for so much cheaper.

Oh but I do understand - I used to be just the same. I daresay most of us here who moved on from GW were the same, to some extent, until we weren't. Nice convenient GW store to congregate in and bask in the wonder of 40K and FB. Space marines and genestealers and orcs and skaven - brilliant. Everything you could ever want for gaming. Sure there were other minis that were kinda sorta interesting, and there was a shop nearby where you could buy different colours of paint for your space marines. There was even a wee FLGS that opened nearby. But the pull was was never too strong to spend most of your gaming time and money anywhere else. Other games didn't have Space Marines or were historicals - boh-ring. Going to that FLGS or a club or even someone's house was ridiculous - unthinkable - because all your gaming buddies (or pickup gaming acquaintances) were right there in GW, along with the only two games that really mattered.
Until they weren't.
GW releases the SGs for one last hurrah. Look at this cockamamie Epic stuff with teeny-tiny versions of the minis we all love! Might as well give it a try - the SM company box is cheap enough. (In fact, why does it seem to be better value than...?) These rules are weird - there aren't even any distinguishable sergeants, let alone a couple of dozen bits of wargear to give them! But hey, this plays pretty well. (In fact, why does it play better than...? And why exactly do we need to sweat and mathammer over which arbitrary choices and wargear to permanently affix to our minis...?) This BFG thing plays pretty well too. Let's take a look at the others to see what we've been missing.
Then it was like the dinosaurs: environmental conditions had already started to kill off enthusiasm when the meteor hit. Those new, interesting SGs were suddenly banned from the shop. At the same time us 'vets' were unceremoniously thrown out on our ear. GW and it's worlds, still beloved even though the cracks had started to show, suddenly made it clear that they didn't wub us anymore. They never did.
Overnight the situation almost completely switched. Indy shops and clubs and especially kitchen tables became much more viable gaming venues than the GW store. It was a choice between organising and gaming at those places, or nowhere; and it took some time and adjustment but we voted 'gaming'. The sting of abandonment was also temporarily added to that increasing dissatisfaction with the rules and prices, so that when we met at those places we were much more receptive of other games. (alongside those SGs that were also kicked out) And y'know what - hand on heart, no sour grapes - most of them are pretty good. Better even. These minis are great too, viewed outside the suffocating GW blanket. Even these historical thingies aren't bad - brightly coloured wheeling blocks and derring-do and everything. Hey, at least it's better-written...

So yeah, I know what it's like to be fixated on GW. I also know what it's like for aaall those people who've been alienated by GW, with a whimper or a bang. Maybe the novelty will fade for you, Talys, though given your astonishingly, wilfuly blinkered and unceasing handwaving of anything GW might be doing wrong, I somehow doubt it. But you are part of a shrinking demographic, and I don't think you're gonna be able to hold GW's hand and lead it all the way through the gauntlet it's facing.
For those alienated gamers, present and future, maybe some might think I'm being melodramatic and I should just worry about my own personal hobby, but I feel some kind of concern and sympathy for them. Many, or most, will move on and find other games by themselves. Others will just feel like giving up altogether, and that's a big loss for them and for the hobby. (For us, not The Hobby(TM)) I don't know how effective my one voice is, bleating in the din of one tiny corner of the internet, and I know it's not as effective as others here, but in some small way I want to encourage both groups that it's not a howling wasteland outside of the GW compound. It's full of variety and possibility, and a lot of fun, and it just needs a couple of extra steps to get to. I know. I was there.

And you'll save a crapload of money too.

Looky Likey wrote:The actual price of the item is irrelevant as what is expensive to one person could be disposable money to somebody else, i.e., just because I can't afford x doesn't mean x is expensive, it just means x is too expensive for me. Its that personal qualifier that is needed around the discussion on price, that or keep it limited to directly comparable products.

Alternatively, just because I can afford x doesn't mean x isn't expensive, it just means I have some money.