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So concussive says that the victim is Initiative 1 until the end of the following assault phase... so if it were to happen in the assault phase, would "following" mean that it's the next assault phase? My gut tells me that a rule that changes when the opponent fights in melee after you've already attacked in melee is barely useful. So I guess I'm just here to confirm if indeed it really only works in the one player turn in which it is used and not the following.

It works in the following phase, not the current one.

Say you hit someone with an I4 concussive weapon causing an unsaved wound, and they have already fought at I5. The next assault phase - if youre still there - the I5 model fights at I1.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It works in the following phase, not the current one.

Say you hit someone with an I4 concussive weapon causing an unsaved wound, and they have already fought at I5. The next assault phase - if youre still there - the I5 model fights at I1.

While that suddenly makes it useful, I'd also like to know how you arrived at that conclusion, as opposed to basically just listening to the first answer I got on the internet with no explanation. (no offense)

Because "the end of the following assault phase" must include the following assault phase - not the current one (because you're in it).

So you're striking at I1 until the end of the next player turn.

A concussive ranged weapon (grav cannon?), by comparison, also knocks your initiative down until the end of the following assault phase - but since that's in the shooting phase, it affects the assault phase of the same player turn.

One slight extra - since overwatch happens in the assault phase, if you hit someone with overwatch with concussive, it will affect that turn and the next.

Concussive isn't great. The most important problem with it is that anyone who's taken an unsaved wound is generally dead, because, you know, unsaved wound. Especially since the most common concussive weapon is the thunder hammer, which is S8 and causes instant death to space marines and equivalents.

It's good on the classic wielders - thunder hammer/storm shield terminators - when facing monstrous creatures. You know you'll survive their first attacks, then whack them, then next turn you'll be striking simultaneously.

Thanks. In the particular case it has become relevant to me, the electro priests (melee) have it and also have instant death on a 6, so really these guys are monster killers in an army of vehicle killers. I have a feeling the Electro Priests, at least the melee ones, if given a chance, will turn out to be useful (but that's for another thread.) Even though what you said makes sense and that's how I'll be playing the rule from now on, it's still kind of wonky with the whole overwatch loophole.

Sorry for not expalining more - I thought "end of FOLLOWING assault phase" was clear that this period must end after the assault phase you are in, i.e. a full player turn away, otherwise it would say "end of CURRENT assault phase"

Concussive on Storm Raven missiles is also good - I've used that to good effect against a nightbringer, allowing my Knight to swing first.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It works in the following phase, not the current one.

Say you hit someone with an I4 concussive weapon causing an unsaved wound, and they have already fought at I5. The next assault phase - if youre still there - the I5 model fights at I1.

Wouldn't it work in the current one also? Say you hit someone with an I6 concussive weapon causing an unsaved wound, and they have not yet fought at I4. In this assault phase they will fight at I1, in the next assult phase they will also fight at I1 correct? If so, and you hit someone with an I4 concussive weapon causing an unsaved wound, and they have already fought at I5 would they fight again at I1?

I've been going through he rules looking for something that says it does not work that way...

 DJGietzen wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It works in the following phase, not the current one.

Say you hit someone with an I4 concussive weapon causing an unsaved wound, and they have already fought at I5. The next assault phase - if youre still there - the I5 model fights at I1.

Wouldn't it work in the current one also? Say you hit someone with an I6 concussive weapon causing an unsaved wound, and they have not yet fought at I4. In this assault phase they will fight at I1, in the next assult phase they will also fight at I1 correct? If so, and you hit someone with an I4 concussive weapon causing an unsaved wound, and they have already fought at I5 would they fight again at I1?

I've been going through he rules looking for something that says it does not work that way...

Going by the example, I think he means that the I5 model doesn't get to fight again at I1.

Going by what he wrote I don't think nosferatu1001 believes either scenario I posted would happen but I can't find a reason for that in the RAW.

Sounds like it's very similar to Blind.

If the model already attacked it would not get to attack again, the effect of blind/concussive effects the next assault phase.

If you could get blind/concussive off BEFORE the enemies initiative step then it would effect both the current round AND the next.

Its very different to blind. Blind requires a test at the end of the phase. Blind in melee can not possibly affect the current turn.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Going by what he wrote I don't think nosferatu1001 believes either scenario I posted would happen but I can't find a reason for that in the RAW.

I used i5 to post a fight that was clear. I thought they'd also stated you fight once so there's no chance of hitting atpgain at i1?

As far as I can tell no such rule exists. Thats what I've been llooking for. There is a rule that model must fight on their initiative, so a I6 model mights at I6. Then on I4 gets wounded by a concussive weapon and become I1 until the end of the next player turn. Then on I1 must fight again... I know that its not supposed to work that way but I just dont see rules to support how it works. If the only fight once rule is out there I'm just not seeing it.

I'll have to look it up, but I believe the wording is "makes its attacks" at its initiative value. That would seem to suggest that it has a certain number of attacks, and the initiative value is when they happen. What I can't quite remember is a rule stating "any models that have not yet made their attacks now do so" for initiative 1. Why would that be important? Well, pretending that you have a model that strikes at Initiative 5, and have a rule that increased the initiative value of other models at this point, you might end up missing your initiative point for attacks. If there is such a rule, it would allow these models to still make their attacks, just at initiative 1 instead. It would also then suggest that you have a set number of "attacks" and the initiative just says when you make them - in which case, if you acted at two different initiative steps, you'd only make your attacks during one of them and have no other attacks to make at any other initiative steps.

 DJGietzen wrote:
As far as I can tell no such rule exists. Thats what I've been llooking for. There is a rule that model must fight on their initiative, so a I6 model mights at I6. Then on I4 gets wounded by a concussive weapon and become I1 until the end of the next player turn. Then on I1 must fight again... I know that its not supposed to work that way but I just dont see rules to support how it works. If the only fight once rule is out there I'm just not seeing it.

If you have A3, and the model makes its (A3) attacks at i1, how can it make its attacks again? Permission would be needed.

After models have Piled In, any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step and who is engaged with an enemy model must fight.
Each engaged model makes a number of attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks...

This is a clear case where RAW are clearly saying something RAI are not. And as is always the case in such a situation, it should be played to RAI.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
As far as I can tell no such rule exists. Thats what I've been llooking for. There is a rule that model must fight on their initiative, so a I6 model mights at I6. Then on I4 gets wounded by a concussive weapon and become I1 until the end of the next player turn. Then on I1 must fight again... I know that its not supposed to work that way but I just dont see rules to support how it works. If the only fight once rule is out there I'm just not seeing it.

If you have A3, and the model makes its (A3) attacks at i1, how can it make its attacks again? Permission would be needed.

He means if an i6 model makes it's attacks. Then at i4 gets hit with concussive, he would get to attack again at i1

As stupid as it is, i havent found a reason RAW that it isnt true.

It's not even a case of "can" its a case of "must"

I was questioning it was if you are reuqired to make your attacks, and have already made as many attacks as you can, asking you to mkae additional attacks would require some form of additional permission.

Yeah, I thought you might be on to something nosferatu1001, going all the way back to the description of the attack characteristic

Attacks (A)
This shows the number of times a model attacks during close combat. Most warriors and creatures have an Attacks characteristic of 1, so they will normally make one attack each in close combat, although some elite troops, monsters or heroes may be able to strike several times and have Attacks 2, Attacks 3 or more.

Seems like this sets a limit on the number of attacks you get in close combat so attacking twice won't matter but this line

Each engaged model makes a number of attacks (A) as indicated on its characteristics profile, plus the following bonus attacks...

is the permission to make attacks each time the model fights and has no consideration for models that have already fought. If this is not permission to exceed the number of attacks on the profile then we would never get bonus attacks.

Yes, but is fighting twice a bonus attack? It only grants permission to add to your A char for bonuses, not anything else.

At each initiative step each model who fights makes a number of attacks as indicated on its characteristic profile, plus bonus attacks. This isn't permission to only make bonus attacks, this is the permission to make any attack at all and the way its worded it makes no difference if they have already made any attacks this round.

Yet there is another rule stating they can only make the attacks on their profile once. So you get to the last I step and you can no longer make your profile attacks , as a separate rule states you can't (or rather gives you no permission to do so) leaving you with only being able to make bonus attacks.