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Some people have been critical of the Weta/Peter Jackson/GW trolls for LotR.

I have noticed three or four comments to that effect on other threads.

So... I was just thinking:

What do people imagine when they think of Middle-earth Trolls?

And, we have a minimum of four different types of trolls in Middle-earth:

• Hill Trolls, which MIGHT be the same as Stone Trolls.
• Stone Trolls
• Cave Trolls
• Olog-Hai

The Hill/Stone trolls were/are the kind that inhabit the Trollshaws in NE Eriador, to the north of Rivendell, and occupying what used to be Northern Rhudaur.

We assume Cave Trolls occupy most of the caves in the Misty Mountains.

And the Olog-Hai were native solely to Mordor.

What do people think of when they imagine one of these?

MB

My first exposure to things called 'trolls' - besides the Three Billy Goats Gruff - was in The Hobbit, so the image that pops up in my head is pretty much Bert, Bill and Tom peering from behind the trees. (with a certain necessary amount of imagination filling in the gaps) John Howe is my favourite M-E artist, and I'm pretty satisfied with his depiction of the same characters. Though of course it's not a million miles away from Alan Lee's or Ted Nasmith's versions, too. Couldn't really go for the goofy look of Warhammer or DnD trolls after that. Or for that matter, the celestial eye goldfish look of the first LotR movie.

The matter of stone, hill and cave trolls is pretty vague. (Olog Hai are more easily differentiated, as with orc-men/man-orcs) Personally I'm inclined to view them all as one type, with the different names more of a description of where certain individuals were encountered, along with what they turn into in sunlight. Maybe there could be a distinction between the stone/hill troll and cave trolls, because the vague glimpses of the cave trolls in The Bridge of Khazad-dûm make them seem more animalistic, bigger even, than the former. Though a lot of that might be down to the change in tone and intent between The Lord of The Rings and the comedy stylings of Bert, Bill and Tom. The toeless foot was a bit of a headscratcher for a while, sounding like a featureless wedge of flesh, but I like to interpret that as something like an elephant or rhino foot, rather than the TMNT weirdness of, again, the first movie.

Olog-Hai are relatively easy to extrapolate if you can decide on the look of the standard troll. Something between that and a big orc. Longer limbs? Smaller size maybe, though faster and more agile with it? I think of the scales as a skin feature, not manufactured armour. YMMV.

When I think of an Olog-Hai, I picture something half again as tall as an Uruk, with black skin and red eyes, clad in lacquered plate armour. Has intelligence in the expression and face, although looks permanently bitter and hacked off, because it's intelligent enough to know how badly it has it compared to the elves & men, and resent it.

Not sure why that might is so emphasized. Hill trolls is used several times in a way that makes it look interchangeable with other descriptors. The Hobbit trolls are described as stone trolls and hill trolls. Hill trolls is also used to describe the trolls of Eriador and the Troll Shaws as well as the "hill-trolls" of Gorgoroth, which are probably Olog-Hai.

Hill/Cave/Mountain (which is only mentioned in regards to Grond) seems to be an indication of where the troll lives more than anything. I agree with Vermis that any difference in description between trolls of the Hobbit trolls and the LOTR cave trolls is most likely attributable to the different styles of the writings. Although it is possible that there are different kinds of trolls that were created differently.

Trolls seem to be large, strong stocky things that Treebeard claims were created in mockery of Ents. They were supposedly created from stone and, if entirely created, would lack a soul since Melkor could not create true life. It is possible that other creatures were twisted into their creation, such as Ents. Tolkien never seemed really settled on how trolls came to be, other than that they were a 'counterfeit'.

I always pictured them as towering brutes with rough, broad, misshapen features. Just as the Ents are treelike, I envision trolls as lumpy and rocklike (though not so extreme as to be like an elemental) with scales or horny growths. I believe the Moria troll is described as scaled and green, but I can't recall a specific reference. I mentally picture other trolls as dark, probably some shade of grey or brown. Moria trolls have been down there for about 500 years, so they may have some divergence with other trolls. Plenty of room for variety in there!

Olag-hai, as a continuation of Sauron's "creation" seem distinct in being able to withstand sunlight and being more cunning than other trolls, utilizing weaponry and shields. I also agree that the horny, scaled appearance is intrinsic, not manufactured armor. For some reason I picture them as smaller than wild trolls and having goblin features mixed in as Vermis states.

Also, don't forget that there may be snow trolls as referenced in the description of Helm Hammerhand!

I had completely forgot about the Snow Trolls from the Helm Hammerhead reference.

I am falling asleep, and need to come back to this.

But the very first thing I thought of when I read about the "Toeless foot" in LotR was EXACTLY an elephant/rhino type foot (maybe with slightly sharper nails) on a body that had a texture very much like rhino or elephant hide, shaped kind of like a cross between man and elephant (obviously without the trunk), but with very distinctive tusks (as opposed to the fangs of a Goblin/Orc).

For those who do not know the difference, Tusks are teeth that never stop growing. They just keep getting longer and longer (necessitating their sharpening, or "sloughing" by the animal that has them).

Fangs, however, are just great big teeth (usually sharp).

As an example. The Smilodon (saber-toothed tiger) had fangs, Warthogs or Entelodonts have/had tusks.

Sleep time.

MB

jmurph wrote:They were supposedly created from stone and, if entirely created, would lack a soul since Melkor could not create true life. It is possible that other creatures were twisted into their creation, such as Ents. Tolkien never seemed really settled on how trolls came to be, other than that they were a 'counterfeit'.

In my own opinion, I think it could be like the hints of how Melkor and Sauron bred dragons, werewolves, wargs and possibly some orcs: breeding or fashioning a body from 'raw materials' and having it inhabited or possessed by his corrupted maiar or fëar. That the original material in the trolls' case seemed to be stone - possibly less suitable than living flesh*, for Melkor's limited powers - could help explain why they weren't entirely successful or optimal, being a bit dim and too vulnerable to sunlight. (I mean, it's a good thing the trolls in most other modern fantasy are a bit different - Warhammer o&g armies could be slightly nobbled. "Pregame clock roll - oops, sorry, it's daytime! Pack your trolls away...")
*Or living wood. That could be the mockery and counterfeit of ents: a race of great, powerful creatures originating from natural but nonsentient elements, given sentience. Though for trolls, rather than being twisted from captured ents like the most well known elf/orc theory, instead fashioned from a substance that Melkor seemed fond of manipulating, and mistakenly thought stronger than Yavanna's trees.

But, as mentioned, that's just my five-minute-old view.

I believe the Moria troll is described as scaled and green, but I can't recall a specific reference.

I flicked through my copy of FotR for my last post: you're right.

BeAfraid wrote:
But the very first thing I thought of when I read about the "Toeless foot" in LotR was EXACTLY an elephant/rhino type foot (maybe with slightly sharper nails) on a body that had a texture very much like rhino or elephant hide, shaped kind of like a cross between man and elephant (obviously without the trunk), but with very distinctive tusks (as opposed to the fangs of a Goblin/Orc).

That makes me think of Privateer Press' titans; though while I'm sure you wouldn't plan to go so overboard on the tusks (to say nothing of the armour), I'm not sure how distinctive you mean.

A couple of quick things.

If trolls were made in the imitation of Ents, it seems likely that Morgoth would have used Ents as his starting material, otherwise Trolls would be a form of corrupted Maia, which they show absolutely no evidence of being.

This is not to say that this is impossible, just very unlikely, and that some sort of heinous alchemical and genetic mutation of Ents, coupled with some sort of "Elemental Magic" (since we know that Ëa and Arda were places where Cartesian Dualism is true, and thus Fëa could inhabit any substance, given proper coercion or force - usually "breaking" the Fëa in the process).

Anyway, the cheap-ass airline is giving me grief about being in "airline mode" even though we are still about a half-hour to take off.

And my plans are for very subdued Trolls, with more "anthropomorphic" features than Jackson's (closer to Bert, Bill, and Tom), but with more primitive hominid features (closer to Ape than Human, but with legs/feet that resemble elephant or rhino feet/legs).

And, there will be variations depending upon region, roll, or breeding.

MB

I think the apelike structure with the elephantine toes sounds right. I do think that they would likely be asymmetrical. Not (necessarily) egregiously so, but would help to reinforce that they are "off". So maybe one arm longer or different number of fingers/toes, etc. Facial asymmetry is probably something that we would quickly notice as "off".

The problem is, of course, that audiences may interpret it as poor sculpting. Which, I guess it is, ironically!

Looking forward to seeing how this develops!

In my experience 'sculpting ugly' is a bit different to 'ugly sculpting'. A lot of people think the latter is the key to the former, but it's usually a bit more difficult than that.

I need a freaking God-damned Cintiq to work with.

I may have to return to working more with physical media if I cannot get one soon.

I only have some rough gesture drawings of trolls, currently. I do not want to make freakish Giants, like GW did as Trolls, but rather Trolls that are only around nine or ten feet tall (Andre the Giant sized).

Given keeping the proportions similar to the Orcs I am doing (with legs that are around 50% of their usual length), I think they will look imposing enough, given that their upper bodies would then be sized as if for a nearly 18 ft tall monster.

I am having trouble with the heels. An elephant's heels are inside a blob of fat on its feet. I am trying to make the feet look JUST A BIT "anthropomorphic." That would mean a noticeable heel, at least.

The facial features I am looking at are sort of like those of a cave-man with fetal-alcohol-syndrome. Wide-set eyes, with a flat face.

MB

I look forward to seeing what you produce.

Thanks...

Still trying to figure out if I want to do full concept sketches, or if I just need to do 3-views to model the base-mesh, and then just work at sculpting from there.

Since the Trolls aren't going to have any chainmail, I won't need to worry about that (chainmail is what is slowing down my Orcs/Goblins - I need to do three or four of them in chainmail - well, five or six of them, since the two commanders will be in chainmail as well).

But once I get the base-mesh done, then I can pose it really quickly (and multiple times) to get any pose I wish for the trolls.

Sometimes having a concept drawing (Like those for the Mahûd I have done, which I need to finish and post, so people can take a look at them) is helpful. Other times it winds up being just a waste of time.

MB

I think of the designs that were done for the Hobbit and LotR movies. They'd be a good place to look for inspiration.