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How many points would you charge for a piece of wargear that buffed a Legion Astartes unit with Shrouded?

Since Word Bearers are handing out Daemon potentially for 25 points, I figured a snipeable piece of wargear that hands out Shrouded should be in the same ballpark, so I'm considering it to also be a 25 point upgrade. Ideas?

first off (and you do acknowledge this), 25 points for the *chance* to get Daemon is a far cry from 25 points for Daemon, especially in a meta where Fear is actually useful if we're talking about the Legion Army lists and not 40k. I just want that to be made clearer.

second off, and I wish I had a comparison or precedent to base this off of, but Shrouded and Daemon are not close enough in power/ advantage to make a comparison.

Shrouded- causing wargear is worth 20 points IMO.

Thanks for the feedback! I discussed this with my gaming group over the weekend, and 20 points is what they came up with as well.

For background, I'm working on a Second Legion project, and after much consideration, I didn't want to use any of the existing Legion-specific rules as they do feel special to each Legion.
I'm using the idea of Chronomarines. My legion Special Rules are:

(a) Chrono Cover (Stealth to all Legiones Astartes - Chronomarines)
(b) Baseline Network Requirement (must take Master of Signal as an HQ choice)
(c) Temporal Hubris (cannot Go to Ground voluntarily).
(d) Access to wargear: Chrono Relay - any model that can purchase a nuncio-vox can further upgrade it to a Chrono Relay, which replaces Stealth with Shrouded for the bearer and unit attached to.

My idea is the unit must first be upgraded with a nuncio-vox (usually a 10 point option), and then further upgrade that nuncio-vox to a Chrono Relay for another 20 points. So its a 20 point upgrade, but requires a 10 point purchase as a pre-requisite.

Trying to come up with your own rules, but not make them too powerful isn't easy! My first idea was a 6+ Invul vs Shooting, upgradeable with wargear to a 5+ Invul vs Shooting, but that was shot down real quick by my gaming group with comments like "Sounds great! I hope you enjoy playing with yourself!" So I switched Invul saves to Cover Saves, and they obliged.

Not sure anyone cares about all this stuff, but if anyone sees anyhting that looks too OP, chime in!

That seems fair. If I had a HH army, I would play against those rules. Good on you for coming up with that! homebrew rules that aren't OP is difficult indeed.

Ok ok the rules is fine, but you need to fill in some blanks

What's a chrono marine?

Which legion as some legions could very easily abuse this

 Formosa wrote:
Ok ok the rules is fine, but you need to fill in some blanks

What's a chrono marine?

Which legion as some legions could very easily abuse this

These are my made-up, Legion-specific rules and wargear option for my made-up Legion. Other than those rules, I'm building straight from the Crusade Army List.

I'm creating an army for the Second Legion (one of the two whose records are redacted in all the lists, i.e. "choose your own adventure" Legion). "Chronomarines" is the Imperial title, and what a basic marine in my legion is called. The fluff for the tech is they have ships in orbit containing huge round clock devices dating to the Dark Age that are manned by 20 operators per Chronomarine, When the device is sped up, time slows down for the operators, so for example one battle may take them a week or something like that, and they manipulate the battle field with quantum mumbo-jumbo to throw up cover saves, etc.

I'll take a shrouded wargear for my boyz for 20pts too thanks

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'll take a shrouded wargear for my boyz for 20pts too thanks

Keep in mind that Shrouded is much less useful for 3+ save infantry than for 6+ save infantry.

40pts then. Deal? Deal.

 Dakkamite wrote:
40pts then. Deal? Deal.

Model up an orky venomthrope

Does a Venomthrope affect "all units" nearby or just Tyranids? I have the makings of a Wyrm Killaz force with some Tyranid models already and if I can give my dudes shrouded that gak is an autoinclude

Its only for other Tyranids per the codex.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok ok the rules is fine, but you need to fill in some blanks

What's a chrono marine?

Which legion as some legions could very easily abuse this

These are my made-up, Legion-specific rules and wargear option for my made-up Legion. Other than those rules, I'm building straight from the Crusade Army List.

I'm creating an army for the Second Legion (one of the two whose records are redacted in all the lists, i.e. "choose your own adventure" Legion). "Chronomarines" is the Imperial title, and what a basic marine in my legion is called. The fluff for the tech is they have ships in orbit containing huge round clock devices dating to the Dark Age that are manned by 20 operators per Chronomarine, When the device is sped up, time slows down for the operators, so for example one battle may take them a week or something like that, and they manipulate the battle field with quantum mumbo-jumbo to throw up cover saves, etc.

Chrono marines is quite a bad name to be honest, temporal astartes, temporii (pronounced tem-por-e-i), but not chrono marines as that reminds me of chrono gladiators, the ones that have to kill to survive and extend their death clocks.

As for shrouded, why not a 6++ army wide to represent them being slightly out of phase, no legion has that yet.

 Formosa wrote:
Chrono marines is quite a bad name to be honest, temporal astartes, temporii (pronounced tem-por-e-i), but not chrono marines as that reminds me of chrono gladiators, the ones that have to kill to survive and extend their death clocks.

I suppose its good for me that I don't know what a Chrono Gladiator is. I didn't care for the word Temporal in my name, because it sounds like every other episode of Star Trek, but I did use the term in my rules. In any case, in my litle background, that is what their original name is, but they went traitor well before the finding of the last Primarch and the Heresy, and are thereafter called the "Lotus Eaters" by the loyalists (perhaps you like that name even less...its from Homer) before their records were completely redacted.

 Formosa wrote:
As for shrouded, why not a 6++ army wide to represent them being slightly out of phase, no legion has that yet.

As I stated earlier, I presented the idea of a 6++ improvable to a 5++, and only against shooting attacs, but it was shot down as OP by my gaming group since it would give every type of marine a save vs every ranged weapon in the game.

That's how hh works though, a flat 6++ for everyone would be fine, for hq's and the like a temporal shunt for example for 10pts adds +1 to invunerable saves, it's in line with all other +1 inv saves.

Cronii as an alternative to chrono, cron-e-i marines or troopers, is the legion called chrono marines?

Ghost walker legion since they are slightly out of phase, Time slayers?

 Formosa wrote:
That's how hh works though, a flat 6++ for everyone would be fine, for hq's and the like a temporal shunt for example for 10pts adds +1 to invunerable saves, it's in line with all other +1 inv saves.

Well, my friends are HH players, and they decidedly did not like a flat 6++ at all, and their opinion was a 5++ should cost 10 points per Marine, just like it costs per Praetor, Consul, or Centurion with a Refractor Field. For a 20 man unit of Tacs, that would be 200 points. No thanks. This ship has sort of sailed at this point. I'm obviously not going to build around army rules that none of my friends want to play against.

 Formosa wrote:
Cronii as an alternative to chrono, cron-e-i marines or troopers, is the legion called chrono marines?

I'm not married to the name "Chronomarines" as a legion name, but its what I've settled on so far. It's a name I sort of came up with to express the idea that my marines manipulate time for their legion-specific tech, after seeing a copy of the video game Chrono Trigger lying around my house. Thier traitor name is the "Lotus Eaters", because they were seduced away from the Emeperor by visions from a greater daemon of his impending battle with Horus, and his future kept on life support on the Golden Throne.

 Formosa wrote:
Ghost walker legion since they are slightly out of phase, Time slayers?

They aren't really out of phase. In my imagination, the tech works like this. There are big clock orb mechanisms (think the warp drive of the Event Horizon, except much much more massive) at the center of their ships that are manned by a team of operators, lets say 20 per marine. The mechanism is then activated in a spinning motion. Time slows down in the mechanism, but not elsewhere. The operators are spinning around inside this mechanism, so that a 20 minute battle might take a week for them to complete, but it only takes 20 minutes outside the mechanism. Their job in that time period is to use quantum mumbo-jumbo consoles to amamalgamate little clumps of matter around the Marines capable, with any luck, of deflecting some incoming fire that is not D, Barrage, or Ignores Cover, but the Marines themselves are just normal Legion Marines, and are moving through real spacetime without any phasing or Invul or whatever. A "chrono-relay" (my wargear option), improves the signal of the Marines and their chances of getting cover (hence replaces Stealth with Shrouded).

If any of that helps out with an alternative legion name recommendation...

My complaint about shrouded is, while it may not SEEM as good as a 6+ invuln, it can potentially be very broken.

For example, you just went from having a 4+ cover in ruins to a 2+ cover in ruins, meaning that if you keep your guys well hidden you've just made obsolete the entirety of my AP weaponry. Literally the only army that wouldn't really be concerned is Tau, but just about everyone else will struggle against your cover save that'll cut your casualties in half.

So in my opinion, should be priced more than the invuln. An invuln is essentially only better against melee, and melee is a lot less fearsome than shooting these days. Plus, most of the time an invuln doesn't matter. Bolters "ignore" an invuln, and against plasma you're still only getting a 5++ or 6++, or a 4+ cover, not a 2+ cover.

Basically, you're going from a slightly improved survivability against AP weapons from an invuln to a blanket improved survivability against anything that doesn't ignore cover. A huge difference if you ask me.

I'd be much more comfortable with your guys getting a 6++, or maybe even a 5++, well before I'd have them getting a 2+ cover.

 kingbobbito wrote:

I'd be much more comfortable with your guys getting a 6++, or maybe even a 5++, well before I'd have them getting a 2+ cover.

That's what I originally proposed, and the Invul I was proposing was only meant to be against Shooting at that. I think the concern was I would be getting saves against barrage weapons, AP 3 flamers, and D weapons, and other weapons with Ignores Cover.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I could revise my rules from Stealth and Shrouded to something like this:

Chrono Cover: All Legion Astartes (Chronimarines) always have a 6+ cover save, unless their natural cover save is better.

Chrono Relay: Units equipped with a Chrono Relay always have a 5+ cover save, unless their natural cover save is better.

So basically Stealth and Shrouded that don't stack against your normal cover save, maybe. I feel this might be a little underpowered compared to the kind of legion rules and wargear other legions have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In any case, whatever I land on will be play tested, and if it ends up being OP will be refined. I'm not going to pull this army out for a PUG at my flgs and demand people accept my rules or anything like that.

In case anyone is interested, I had a couple friends run a test game with the "Stealth army-wide, improvable with wargear to Shrouded", and it was pretty OP. As Kingbobbito predicted, it was just too easy to camp behind cover and roll 2+ covers all the time.

Next playtest will use these rules instead:

Chrono Cover: All Legion Astartes (Chronimarines) always have a 6+ cover save, unless their natural cover save is better.

Chrono Relay: Models that can purchase a Nuncio-Vox may further upgrade it to a Chrono Relay for 15 more points. A Chrono-Relay acts as a nuncio-vox. Furhtermore, units equipped with a Chrono-Relay have the Stealth special rule.